God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Pancho Frijoles]

The gospel of Christ began after His death and resurrection. The disciples did not even understand it until His resurrection from the dead.

Yet Jesus’ disciples, like all their ancestors, knew that God forgave and changed the lives of those who sincerely repented.
This is an important point, civic, as God did not add requisites overnight.
God’s love and willingness to forgive has been the same before and after crucifixion. The same in Hangzhou, Jerusalem or Chichen Itza. Do you agree with this? I would like to know your opinion.

 

[Johann]

I will be glad to exchange views with as many Forum members as possible.
The Scriptures I have quoted are there and do not change. I have not twisted them. They address the issue explicitly. If someone has a different interpretation for the passages I’ve quoted, please share it.
The reality of forgiven and transformed men from all religions is also there and does not change. I am one of those men.

You are not here to engage in meaningful debate but to philosophize in a manner resembling Qur'anic argumentation. Your Bahá'í religion does not possess the Bible, only a collection of writings, and your methodology in these discussions relies on deflection rather than genuine engagement. Instead of addressing the Scriptures presented to you, you twist them to suit your narrative, which is dishonest and misleading.

The reality is that the preaching of the cross has become foolishness to you, as Paul wrote: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Rather than grappling with this truth, you consistently evade and undermine it by responding to challenges with more questions, refusing to address the evidence provided from God’s Word. This approach is disingenuous and reveals the weakness of your position.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are not here to engage in meaningful debate but to philosophize in a manner resembling Qur'anic argumentation. Your Bahá'í religion does not possess the Bible, only a collection of writings, and your methodology in these discussions relies on deflection rather than genuine engagement. Instead of addressing the Scriptures presented to you, you twist them to suit your narrative, which is dishonest and misleading.

I think you are mistaken in a number of ways, Johann

1. Reason, philosophy and science are important to understand God's love and will. Any religious claim that contradicts reason is superstition.
2. As Baha’i I believe in the divine origin of the Bible, as well as many other sacred texts that your religion do not “possess”.
3. I believe in your honesty and commitment to God. Otherwise, I wouldn't be having a conversation with you in these terms.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The reality is that the preaching of the cross has become foolishness to you, as Paul wrote: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

The cross is precious... when we see in it Jesus' willingness to die obeying His Father, and we are inspired to do the same.
The cross becomes foolishness... when a member of this Forum thinks that a Sikh cannot be forgiven as a Sikh and will be tortured forever.

The cross is precious... when it keep us united.
The cross is foolishness... when it is used to bring divisions among us.

This is the sense in which Paul pronounced such words in 1 Cor 1:18. Let's read the whole passage, starting in verse 10:

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”​

​

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.​

​

So far in this passage, the context of Paul's discussion is the division he observes in the church. It is not how God forgave those who existed before Christ, or how God forgave the Chinese (in case Paul knew about the Chinese). Then the passage continues:

​

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. ​

If we observe that a Sikh is not perishing, but living the life of Christ, then the cross is not foolishness to that Sikh, but the power of God.
We don't need to ask that Sikh "What do you think about the substitutionary atonement achieved by Christ on the cross?". That question has become irrelevant, because that Sikh is already crucified with Christ, and resurrected with Christ, and is seating in heavenly places with Christ.

 

[Johann]

The cross is precious... when we see in it Jesus' willingness to die obeying His Father, and we are inspired to do the same.
The cross becomes foolishness... when a person thinks that a Sikh cannot be forgiven as a Sikh.

How is a person born again? How is a Sikh, or anyone else, forgiven if they are not born again? Why do you avoid the Pauline epistles, which clearly outline salvation and the necessity of spiritual rebirth?

Even the Messiah Himself spoke about the imperative of being born again: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Jesus emphasized the work of the Spirit in this process: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6). Without this rebirth, there is no entry into eternal life.

Paul also affirms this necessity of transformation through the Spirit: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

This "washing of regeneration" points to the spiritual cleansing and renewal brought about by faith in Christ, which no human effort or philosophical reasoning can achieve.

Now, indulge me and use the sacred texts of your Bahá'í faith, which I do not possess. Can they offer a comparable path to true forgiveness and eternal life?

It is evident that the cross means nothing to you, as you deny the Messiah’s literal resurrection. Yet, Scripture proclaims: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17). The resurrection is the cornerstone of salvation, without which there is no hope of new life.

This reality-that Messiah was crucified for our sins and raised for our justification (Romans 4:25)—is the foundation of true forgiveness and spiritual rebirth. Denying the resurrection is not merely a theological error; it is a rejection of the very power by which God grants eternal life: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

If the cross and resurrection mean nothing to you, then what is your hope for forgiveness, for spiritual renewal, or for eternal life? These truths are not just symbolic; they are the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Romans 1:16).

Now deal with the Scriptures and don't deflect.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Jesus passed on the gospel to His Disciples. Its the same Gospel but Christ had not suffered, died, risen yet. The disciples didn't understand the Passion until after His Resurrection, they were in denial.

Thanks for your comments, civic.
I do agree with you that the disciples didn't understand at first what the Messiah had to suffer, die, be raised victorious, and return.

But here, in the thread, we are talking about how God forgives sinners and transform lives.

If the main topic of Jesus words and actions was salvation, and Jesus "passed on the gospel to his disciples" without having explained what salvation was all about... what did Jesus preach all that time?

The fact that the gospels, with all the passages I have quoted, were written decades after Christ's death, tell us that the evangelists upheld Jesus teachings on forgiveness, as they were pronounced by Jesus Himself.
Remember that Paul was already writing his epistles, and had completed several of them... and yet, the evangelists kept writing the parable of the tax collector and Pharisee, the Prodigal Son, the king that forgave the debt of his servant, as well as the Lord's Prayer and all explicit references to mercy and forgiveness.

In summary, the disciples DID NOT introduce a new soteriology. What they did was to further deepen upon the truths revealed by Jesus, which are the same essential truths revealed in the Tanakh, and in the heart of every Persian, Chinese, Inca and Australian aboriginal.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

How is a person born again? How is a Sikh, or anyone else, forgiven if they are not born again?

A person is born again by repenting in all humbleness, asking God to renew their heart, and living a new life, different from his all ways.
That is the way a person is born again "from water and the spirit".

Therefore, is you see a Sikh living a new life, a life of love and righteousness, it is not because of "psychological or cultural factors", as you have wrongly stated, but because he is born again by the water and spirit.

This is a question for all readers:

How could you demonstrate that your own spiritual experience, your own transformation, was not the result of "pyschological or cultural factors"?

 

[Johann]

If we observe that a Sikh is not perishing, but living the life of Christ, then the cross is not foolishness to that Sikh, but the power of God.
We don't need to ask that Sikh "What do you think about the substitutionary atonement achieved by Christ on the cross?". That question has become irrelevant, because that Sikh is already crucified with Christ, and resurrected with Christ, and is seating in heavenly places with Christ.

The Scripture is correct, your interpretation incorrect.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's deal with the Scriptures you present, my friend:

Paul also affirms this necessity of transformation through the Spirit: "He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Amen. I agree with Paul. God makes us righteous according to HIS OWN MERCY. He operates that through the renewal of the Holy Spirit.
So, Paul is not invoking here anything else that Jesus and all prophets invoked in the past: we are saved by the underserved grace of God, and not because of our good knowledge of Theology.

Yet, Scripture proclaims: "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins" (1 Corinthians 15:17). The resurrection is the cornerstone of salvation, without which there is no hope of new life.

Paul is not saying that Chinese who did not believe in the physical resurrection deserved eternal torment.
Paul is saying that if we believed Christ was defeated... if Christ was dead and buried for us... then our faith would be futile.
Christ is alive and victorious for me. His Message is eternal.

This reality-that Messiah was crucified for our sins and raised for our justification (Romans 4:25)—is the foundation of true forgiveness and spiritual rebirth. Denying the resurrection is not merely a theological error; it is a rejection of the very power by which God grants eternal life: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

Again, Jesus Christ is not defeated, forgotten or destroyed.
He lives. He reigns. He is part of our lives. We are already resurrected with Him, and we are already sitting with Him in heaven.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and He raised us up and seated us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:4-6)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Scripture is correct, your interpretation incorrect.

J.

Then, please explain how you interpret the phenomenon of a Sikh being forgiven and granted a new life of love and righteousness.
Please explain how his experience is the result of "psychological and cultural factors" while your own experience is the work of the Holy Spirit.

I'm very interested in knowing your interpretation. Just think twice before posting, my friend.
Think carefully, lest you will call the work of God the work of Beelzebub.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Now, indulge me and use the sacred texts of your Bahá'í faith, which I do not possess. Can they offer a comparable path to true forgiveness and eternal life?

You have complained saying I am promoting the Bahai Faith in this Forum.
Now you ask me to share sacred texts of the Bahai Faith.
Actually, you are being the best promoter of the Bahai Faith in this Forum. Count the number of posts in which you mention it (all of them very accurately and respectfully... thanks for that)
I will indulge you this time, my brother, so that you can keep saying I am promoting my religion in the Forum.

I will just have breakfast with my wife.

 

[Johann]

A person is born again by repenting in all humbleness, asking God to renew their heart, and living a new life, different from his all ways.
That is the way a person is born again "from water and the spirit".

Therefore, is you see a Sikh living a new life, a life of love and righteousness, it is not because of "psychological or cultural factors", as you have wrongly stated, but because he is born again by the water and spirit.

This is a question for all readers:

How could you demonstrate that your own spiritual experience, your own transformation, was not the result of "pyschological or cultural factors"?

Error after error-

Misinterpretation of "Born Again"
Being "born again" is not simply about repentance, asking God to renew the heart, or living a better life. It is a supernatural act of God, brought about through faith in Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit. Jesus Himself defines the new birth clearly:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).
"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (John 3:5).

This new birth involves regeneration-a complete transformation of the heart and spirit-through the Holy Spirit, not through human effort:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).
The act of being born again is entirely God’s work, not merely the result of human repentance or lifestyle change.

2. The Role of Jesus in the New Birth
Your claim that a Sikh or anyone outside of faith in Jesus can be born again contradicts the exclusive nature of salvation through Christ.

Jesus said:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

Faith in Jesus is essential for the new birth:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13).

Here, being "born of God" is directly tied to faith in Christ, not general repentance or moral improvement.
Paul further affirms this:

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Only those in Christ experience the transformative new birth.

A life of love and righteousness apart from faith in Jesus is admirable but does not equate to being born again.

3. Misuse of "Water and Spirit"

The phrase "born of water and the Spirit" (John 3:5) does not refer to human repentance or moral effort. It points to the spiritual cleansing and renewal performed by God:

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses... And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you" (Ezekiel 36:25-26).
This prophecy finds fulfillment in the work of the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, not through general religious devotion or cultural transformation.

Paul confirms this in Titus:


"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

"Water and Spirit" refer to the work of God through the Spirit, not human actions.

4. Righteous Living Alone Does Not Equate to Being Born Again

Your statement assumes that a Sikh’s life of love and righteousness must indicate they are born again. However, Scripture teaches that outward moral behavior does not equal spiritual rebirth.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Even those who perform good works without faith in Jesus are still under sin:

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

"Without faith it is impossible to please him" (Hebrews 11:6).

A life of righteousness without faith in Christ may result from cultural, psychological, or personal factors but does not equate to being spiritually regenerated.

5. The Exclusivity of the Gospel
Being born again is tied explicitly to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul clearly states:

"If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9).

Without this confession of faith in Jesus, there is no new birth, regardless of outward morality or religious devotion.
Jesus warned of relying on outward actions without genuine faith:

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21).

The will of the Father is to believe in Jesus:
"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life" (John 6:40).

Let's wrap this up-

Do not rely on me to do the work of interpreting and applying Scripture for you. You are called to "rightly handle the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15). This means studying the Scriptures diligently, discerning their meaning in context, and interpreting them faithfully without distorting their message.

The phrase "rightly handling" comes from the Greek word orthotomounta (ὀρθοτομοῦντα), which literally means "to cut straight" or "to guide on a straight path." It conveys the idea of teaching or interpreting Scripture accurately, without deviation or error. This requires a commitment to truth and humility before God's Word, rather than relying on circular reasoning or deflection.

I will not allow you to resort to tactics that avoid engaging with the clear meaning of the text, such as asking questions to deflect or twisting Scripture to suit a preconceived narrative. The Word of God is "living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword" (Hebrews 4:12), and it must be approached with reverence and honesty, allowing its full authority to guide us.

Instead, take responsibility to study and engage with what Scripture teaches. As Paul instructed Timothy, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). Let the Word itself shape your understanding, rather than attempting to impose external philosophies or circular arguments onto its truths.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Johann]

You have complained saying I am promoting the Bahai Faith in this Forum.
Now you ask me to share sacred texts of the Bahai Faith.
Actually, you are being the best promoter of the Bahai Faith in this Forum. Count the number of posts in which you mention it (all of them very accurately and respectfully... thanks for that)
I will indulge you this time, my brother, so that you can keep saying I am promoting my religion in the Forum.

I will just have breakfast with my wife.

I encourage you to engage directly with the sacred texts and writings of the Bahá'í faith, including the Hidden Words and other foundational documents. If you claim authority or alignment with these writings, it is only fair that your arguments are rooted in what they explicitly teach, rather than relying solely on interpretations or philosophical reasoning.

Similarly, as Christians, we use the Bible as our foundation for truth, adhering to its clear instructions. Scripture reminds us to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is in us (1 Peter 3:15), using the inspired Word of God, which is "profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16). If your aim is genuine discussion, use your own sacred texts to demonstrate the consistency of your views and allow others to do the same from their Scriptures.

Without engaging directly with these texts, debates remain abstract and detached from the authoritative sources that guide our respective beliefs. Let the dialogue be grounded in the core writings we each claim to follow, ensuring clarity and sincerity in the discussion.

Thanks.

J.

 

[Larry]

What does Genesis 3:15 mean that “he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel”? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that “he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel”? What is the meaning of Genesis 3:15?

www.gotquestions.org

Genesis 3:15 is called “the protevangelium” – the first preaching of the Gospel. The first preaching of the Gospel took place at the very beginning of human history, immediately after man’s fall in the Garden of Eden. In this verse God promised that one day he would send a Savior who would destroy Satan and deliver man from his power. This shows that Jesus has always been God’s only provision for our salvation; it also shows that the message of the gospel is for the whole world.

Promises Of Christ’s Coming In The Old Testament

Fulfilled prophecy confirms that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God who was sent to be the Savior of the world. There are 61 major Old Testament prophecies about Christ’s first coming that were fulfilled in the New Testament. The place of his birth, the time of his birth, the manner of his birth, his betrayal for 30 pieces of silver, the manner of his death, the reaction of people, the piercing of his hands and feet, his burial in a rich man’s tomb, and his resurrection, are just a few of the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the life of Christ.

 

[Johann]

What does Genesis 3:15 mean that “he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel”? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that “he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel”? What is the meaning of Genesis 3:15?

www.gotquestions.org

Genesis 3:15 is called “the protevangelium” – the first preaching of the Gospel. The first preaching of the Gospel took place at the very beginning of human history, immediately after man’s fall in the Garden of Eden. In this verse God promised that one day he would send a Savior who would destroy Satan and deliver man from his power. This shows that Jesus has always been God’s only provision for our salvation; it also shows that the message of the gospel is for the whole world.

Promises Of Christ’s Coming In The Old Testament

Fulfilled prophecy confirms that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God who was sent to be the Savior of the world. There are 61 major Old Testament prophecies about Christ’s first coming that were fulfilled in the New Testament. The place of his birth, the time of his birth, the manner of his birth, his betrayal for 30 pieces of silver, the manner of his death, the reaction of people, the piercing of his hands and feet, his burial in a rich man’s tomb, and his resurrection, are just a few of the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled in the life of Christ.

Thanks @Larry-much appreciated.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus.

Johann.

 

[Larry]

Thanks @Larry-much appreciated.

Stay strong in Christ Jesus.

Johann.

You too Bro.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I encourage you to engage directly with the sacred texts and writings of the Bahá'í faith, including the Hidden Words and other foundational documents.

I appreciate your encouragement.
There are many texts about forgiveness. For example this prayer

O my God, O Forgiver of sins and Dispeller of afflictions! ​

O Thou Who art the Pardoner, the Merciful! ​

I raise my suppliant hands to Thee, ​

tearfully beseeching the court of Thy divine Essence to forgive, ​

through Thy grace and clemency, ​

Thy handmaiden who hath ascended unto the seat of truth. ​

Cause her, O Lord, to be overshadowed by the clouds of Thy bounty and favor, ​

immerse her in the ocean of Thy forgiveness and pardon, ​

and enable her to enter that sanctified abode, Thy heavenly Paradise.​

​

Thou art, verily, the Mighty, the Compassionate, the Generous, the Merciful.​

​

​

​

Or this one, revealed by Bahá'u'lláh​

​

My God, Whom I worship and adore!​

I bear witness unto Thy unity and Thy oneness, ​

and acknowledge Thy gifts, both in the past and in the present. ​

Thou art the All-Bountiful, the overflowing showers of Whose mercy ​

have rained down upon high and low alike, ​

and the splendors of Whose grace ​

have been shed over both the obedient and the rebellious.​

​

O God of mercy, before Whose door ​

the quintessence of mercy hath bowed down, ​

and round the sanctuary of Whose Cause loving-kindness, ​

in its inmost spirit, hath circled, ​

we beseech Thee, entreating Thine ancient grace, ​

and seeking Thy present favor, ​

that Thou mayest have mercy upon all ​

who are the manifestations of the world of being, ​

and deny them not the outpourings of Thy grace in Thy days.​

​

All are but poor and needy, ​

and Thou, verily, art the All-Possessing, the All-Subduing, the All-Powerful.​

 

[Johann]

I appreciate your encouragement.
There are many texts about forgiveness. For example this prayer

O my God, O Forgiver of sins and Dispeller of afflictions! ​

O Thou Who art the Pardoner, the Merciful! ​

I raise my suppliant hands to Thee, ​

tearfully beseeching the court of Thy divine Essence to forgive, ​

through Thy grace and clemency, ​

Thy handmaiden who hath ascended unto the seat of truth. ​

Cause her, O Lord, to be overshadowed by the clouds of Thy bounty and favor, ​

immerse her in the ocean of Thy forgiveness and pardon, ​

and enable her to enter that sanctified abode, Thy heavenly Paradise.​

​

Thou art, verily, the Mighty, the Compassionate, the Generous, the Merciful.​

​

View attachment 1121​

Right, now who is "the handmaiden" here?

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Right, now who is "the handmaiden" here?

J.

Any lady who recites the prayer.

 

[Johann]

Any lady who recites the prayer.

Any cross reference to the Scripture? And who is the "her?"

J.