God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[synergy]

the problem with Pancho Frijoles is he will not accept the basic way of eternal life that Jesus had shared with people. Jesus did intercede for Pancho Frijoles but Panho Frijoles has not sought Christ to enjoy that.

I agree. You can bring a person a glass of water but he must be the one who drinks of it. @Pancho Frijoles is the person who refuses to drink the water but instead drinks his own cool aid. I hope he does not lead others down that same destructive path of his.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You have not posted a single bit of evidence that anyone has received forgiveness and has been saved apart from Christ.

What “apart from Christ” means, my brother?
Apart for the Way he showed? Then nobody.
Or apart from the specific beliefs about Christ that you hold? Then billions.

The Ninevites, Isaiah and King David are biblical examples of people who were forgiven without believing in Jesus deity, PSA or physical resurrection.
Besides, your reason tells you, when you read the Bible. that people of Israel were forgiven without believing the above. Otherwise all references to God’s mercy were invalid or empty of meaning.

It is absurd that you imagine you can use Christian scriptures to justify non Christians

No. It is absurd to use Scripture in order to deny God’s mercy on your Jewish dentist, your Catholic babysitter or your Muslim coworker. That’s absurd… and not only absurd… it is evil.

Your claims are fallacious

My claims are supported by Scripture, Reason, and the advice of my mom and your mom. I’m sure it is also supported by millions of children around de world.

Knowing Jesus is doctrine, and again you attempt to justify those who do not know Jesus and are not trusting in his for their salvation based upon their works

False. Works just prove those people are being saved. Works are the undeniable evidence of grace.

Ephesians 2:8–10 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 3:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

And John 14:6 notes it is only through Jesus Christ men may come to the father and be saved yet you want to posit many ways

The Way shown by Jesus is the ONLY WAY.
A Sikh who follows that Way is following Jesus, even if he does not know or agree with all your Theology.

 

[Dizerner]

The Ninevites, Isaiah and King David are biblical examples of people who were forgiven without believing in Jesus deity, PSA or physical resurrection.
Besides, your reason tells you, when you read the Bible. that people of Israel were forgiven without believing the above. Otherwise all references to God’s mercy were invalid or empty of meaning.

Although it is true in times in ancient past during the Old Covenant that God did not require these things, I would urge the consideration that nowhere is it acceptable to KNOW about them and still reject them.

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30 NKJ)

However, there was back then a means of conveying the Holy Spirit even when God is the God of the Gentiles too, and we deny the power of Satan over the earth that Adam has allowed, and the spiritual blindness and darkness that lays over the earth, and the principle that none of us is ever justified by our own righteousness as it is never, ever pure enough for the Thrice-Holy God, when we simply declare all people saved by their own moral goodness or blessed with God's Holy Spirit despite their sin and false view of God.

We must not let the exceptions lead us to the rule.

 

[Studyman]

Inasmuch as being a Pharisee implied to follow a wicked "Way of Life", the Pharisee who wanted to convert to Christ's Gospel had to stop being a Pharisee. If this change of "Way of Life" implied that such convert would be expulsed from the community of Pharisees, that "loss" was indeed a gain (Philippians 3:5-8)

It seems prudent, in my view, that a man understands "WHY" God rejected the religious sect of the Pharisees. What was their "wickedness"? Not that a man should judge them according to your definition of "evil" or my definition of "evil". But that a man submits to God's definition of these things. When I do that, and it would be the same for you if you would do the same, I find that what the Pharisees were rejected for, is the exact same "way of life" that is promoted and zealously defended by every religious sect or business in this world, that professes to know God. And that is to reject God's Judgments in favor of man's judgments.

This goes back to the very first recorded temptation in the Bible. Eve was simply convinced that rejecting God's Judgments and living by her own judgments, "WAS NOT A WICKEDNESS". That eating what God told her not to eat, WAS NOT A WICKEDNESS. The Pharisees believed their manmade judgments, doctrines, rituals and traditions WERE NOT A WICKEDNESS.

Catholics, Baha'is, Baptists, JW's, and all the religious businesses and sects of this world's religious system, just like the Pharisees, do not believe their manmade religious doctrines and traditions and rituals/high days etc., "are wicked". And this, not through study and belief in the Scriptures, but from this world's religious system that Jeremiah warns about.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, "No evil" shall come upon you.

Which is the same exact doctrine promoted by the serpent in the garden to convince Eve that "walketh after the imagination of her own heart" produced righteousness not wickedness.

Now to justify man's religious sect, man will do as I did for a time, and reason in their mind, "I am not violent towards my brother" or "I do not steal from my brother", therefore, God will not exact His Promised wrath onto me. But what did the serpent do to Eve with just his philosophy? Did he not kill her? Did he not steal God's peace from her? Deceive her? Defile her? And her death, deception and defilement passed on to others, just as the same death, deception and defilement promoted by those who "Professed to know God" (Prophets, Preachers, etc.) passed on to Israel defiled them. Just as the religious philosophies of a world that hates God and HIS Judgments, if I let them into the Temple of God, (my mind) will also defile/kill me as well.

Hear the Word of the Lord my friend.

Duet. 32: 17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.

19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them,(Why did HE abhore them?) "because" of the provoking of "his sons", and of "his daughters". 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Therefore, walking in, adopting, preserving and promoting the philosophies, judgments, ritual and traditions of this world's religious system, "IS" a wicked way of Life, according to the God of Abraham and the Holy scriptures HE inspired.

For this reason, Jesus said to "Come out of her" lest we partake of "her sins".

This is the "way of life" I am promoting to my brethren. The only thing a man loses when he "Comes out of" this world's religious system, is the "Praise of Men".

Nevertheless, it is a hard pill to swallow for many, just as Jesus said it would be.

I have given you (and perhaps many others) the impression that I don't care about theological views.

I can't speak for others my friend, but you have not given me that impression at all. You have adopted and are zealously defending and promoting a "Theological view", in the exact same way that Civic and Synergy does.

Clearly you care about your "theological views".

Well, I give less emphasis to theological views as a deliberate reaction to the huge, insane emphasis on theological views shown by some Evangelical fundamentalists.

It seems Moses, Jesus, Caleb, Joshua, Shadrack, Paul, James and many other examples of Faithful men in Scriptures, held to God's instruction in righteousness pretty hard. Some could say they also had an "insane emphasis" on the "good works" God before ordained that His People should walk in them. Certainly, it was this way for Shadrack, Meshak and Abednego. I agree with you that some place insane emphasis on manmade high days, images of God and traditions of this world's religious sects and businesses.

I do accept that some theological views can lead to evil thinking, evil doing. But only a very small proportion of them.
I believe that 95% of evil in the world does not come not from mistaken theological views, but from a sick spiritual condition.

This would be true for your definition of "Evil", or the Baha'i definition of Evil, or the Catholic definition of Evil. But not for the definitions of Evil as defined by God in the Holy scriptures and lived by the examples of Faithful men given to us in the Bible.

I think my belief is supported by the fact that 95% or more of the Bible does not engage in theological debates, but with calls to action, to repentance, to obedience to straightforward, clear commandments from God.

Yes, the Bible calls for obedience to the straightforward obedience to the Commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God.

But in this world's religious system made up of hundreds of differing religious businesses and sects, all "Professing to know God" and "many" calling Jesus Lord, Lord, there is a clear and straightforward rebellion against God's Judgments, Statutes and Commandments. This world's religious system despises God's creation of Clean and Unclean and continues in a life where these instructions are considered beneath them, and unworthy of any Honor or obedience. God created Feast of the Lord to lay out important aspects of His Journey to Salvation, and the world to come. But these are called "worthless Jewish Traditions" and flat out rejected by the entire world, in favor of manmade high days tied to ancient Pagan rituals that someone placed Jesus' name on. These high days, which are embraced by this world, generate wealth and fame for the merchants of this world that is too great to even contemplate. Entire Economies are made or broke depending on the transfer of money brought about by these religious high days of men. Whereas, God's Feasts are relegated as foolishness, and trampled like camel dung, with no value whatsoever to this world or her religious sects and businesses. I haven't even got to the images of God after the likeness of men promoted by these same religions.

I could go on and on with these undeniable truths. But you are right about one thing. The bible doesn't spend any time justifying the religious sects and businesses of this world, "who profess to know God". I would say that 100% of the time, the Bible doesn't work to justify a religious sect, business or philosophy that transgresses God's Commandments by their own religious traditions.

I think your statement about the Bible "with calls to action, to repentance, to obedience to straightforward, clear commandments from God" is spot on. As it is written;

Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

But a man can't serve this God and this world's religious sects and businesses that only serve Him with their lips, at the same time.

I think I have made the case for "Yielding oneself" to God in submission to HIS Righteousness, and not the generally accepted righteousness of this world. I hope you might consider. You have done me a kindness that is not forgotten. Thank you for that, Pancho.

Nevertheless, I truly hope your heart is pricked a little.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Although it is true in times in ancient past during the Old Covenant that God did not require these things, I would urge the consideration that nowhere is it acceptable to KNOW about them and still reject them.

Let’s ask ourselves: Did God change the terms of his mercy overnight?
Can we say that for thousands of years He requested a contrite heart (Psalm 51:17)… But that just overnight (after Easter) God added a new requisite?

"Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30 NKJ)

To repent. That’s the call.
The Pagan people Paul preached to were practicing sin, superstition and feeling in need of God. By preaching Christ, to them, Paul was offering them a way to crucify the old way of life and be born (resurrected ) into a new way of life.

I have repented. I have been forgiven. I am being transformed, along with millions like me, DESPITE not believing exactly what you believe.
I have honestly examined the evidence in all Scriptures I’ve had available, including not only the Holy Bible, but also the Noble Quran and the sacred Baha’i Writings. I have prayed and fasted. I have experienced the presence and oneness of my Creator and Sustainer. I have loved and I have been loved.
Praise be to God, The Most Generous, The Ocean of Mercy, The Supreme Beauty, The Free, The Manifest!

*****

We can repent from evil. Not from being mistaken on a theory that we honestly believe to be true.
For example, a Calvinist should not feel compelled to repent from believing in the TULIP theology. A Calvinist should feel compelled to repent from his adultery, indifference to the poor, violence, greed, etc.
In this Forum, people call other people to repent from their theological views. That’s a mistake in the understanding of what “repentance” means.

 

[Dizerner]

Catholics, Baha'is, Baptists, JW's, and all the religious businesses and sects of this world's religious system, just like the Pharisees, do not believe their manmade religious doctrines and traditions and rituals/high days etc., "are wicked".

Just out of sheer curiosity what problem do you have with the Baptists? It was a little surprising to see that in their.

Also do you think Christians are supposed to keep the food laws and OT feasts?

 

[Dizerner]

Let’s ask ourselves: Did God change the terms of his mercy overnight?
Can we say that for thousands of years He requested a contrite heart (Psalm 51:17)… But that just overnight (after Easter) God added a new requisite?

Let us also ask ourselves, "Are we willing to accept God for who he reveals himself, and not our presupposed understanding of works righteousness?" Because King David entrusted himself to the undeserved atonement of God when he ended his entire Psalm 51 with complete acceptance of and homage to God's system of animal sacrifice wherein he laid his very sins upon them:

Then, shalt thou desire the sacrifices of righteousness, Ascending-sacrifice and whole burnt-offering, Then, shall ascend upon thine altar, young bulls. (Ps. 51:19)

Notice a "contrite heart" was not enough, but it had to be coupled with a sincere and real faith in God's atoning system of animal sacrifice (which Hebrews clearly tells us was a symbolic shadow of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ).

Not so much a "new requisite" at all my friend, when God himself shows the representation of his Most Holiest Place on the chest of the covenant required blood to be regularly sprinkled on our behalf. We cannot then reject our need of this blood.

To repent. That’s the call.

Repent of what. "Repent" on its own says nothing. I can repent of Christianity, I can repent of feeding the homeless, all repent means is change, to turn around. We need further instructions, and we are clearly told to "repent and put our faith in Christ." Not faith in our good works, not faith in our own righteousness, not faith in humanity's ability to be pleasing and pure enough for an infinitely holy God. The best and most holiest work a man can do apart from Christ is worthy of eternal hellfire, so full of pride and idolatry it is, for Christ clearly said, "Without me, you can do nothing." Not without the Bhuddas and Brahmas of the world, only without Christ. We are called to repent from dead works quite clearly:

laying down--of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, (Heb. 6:1)
purify our conscience from dead works (Heb. 9:14 ROT)

These so-called "dead works" are how you posit a man is worthy of heaven instead of the shed Blood of Christ on his behalf. You have replaced the righteousness of God with your own good deeds. These works are dead because they cannot save, they cannot avail.

30 What, then, shall we say? That, they of the nations, who were not in pursuit of righteousness, have laid hold of righteousness,--a righteousness, however, which is by faith;
31 Whereas, Israel, though in pursuit of a law of righteousness, unto a law, have not attained.
32 Wherefore? Because, not by faith but as by works, [have they sought it]: they have stumbled at the stone of stumbling,
33 Even as it is written--Lo! I lay in Zion, a stone to strike against and a rock to stumble over, and, he that resteth faith thereupon, shall not be put to shame. (Rom. 9:30-33)

Notice this righteousness comes by "faith" and not by the works of the Law, not by secular altruistic good deeds, by faith in Christ.

The Pagan people Paul preached to were practicing sin, superstition and feeling in need of God. By preaching Christ, to them, Paul was offering them a way to crucify the old way of life and be born (resurrected ) into a new way of life.

Paul was offering them the knowledge of what Christ has done for us, and trust in it.

I recommend reading the book of Galatians in the Bible which lays out Paul's Gospel.

You can listen to my very own translation of it right here:

I have repented. I have been forgiven. I am being transformed, along with millions like me, DESPITE not believing exactly what you believe.

Without faith in the grace of God in Christ wherein he suffered the penalty of our sins, no one is forgiven dear friend.

Your own righteousness will not avail you, and God will be forced to judge you for your sins, when you reject his offered gift.

I have honestly examined the evidence in all Scriptures I’ve had available, including not only the Holy Bible, but also the Noble Quran and the sacred Baha’i Writings. I have prayed and fasted. I have experienced the presence and oneness of my Creator and Sustainer. I have loved and I have been loved.
Praise be to God, The Most Generous, The Ocean of Mercy, The Supreme Beauty, The Free, The Manifest!

I respect your spiritual efforts friend. Where you once a Christian and fell away, or did you come from a different background?

I must tell you that, not all spiritual experiences are of God, there are evil deceiving spirits out for our souls, and that Scripture would clearly indicate you have not honored the sacrifice of Christ for your sins, but rather you have rejected it for your own version of self-righteous theology.

We can repent from evil. Not from being mistaken on a theory that we honestly believe to be true.
For example, a Calvinist should not feel compelled to repent from believing in the TULIP theology. A Calvinist should feel compelled to repent from his adultery, indifference to the poor, violence, greed, etc.
In this Forum, people call other people to repent from their theological views. That’s a mistake in the understanding of what “repentance” means.

Absolutely not, dear friend. Christ clearly told us what we believe is of the utmost importance, and yet you want to be dismissive of that.

The Bible tells us there are "doctrines of devils," and if you really respected the Bible and studied as you claim, you would already know that.

Beliefs are the most powerful and central things about us, and dictate all our actions and attitudes.

And for the record—a Calvinist should absolutely repent of his evil doctrine of TULIP that maligns that character of God, and if he does not, he will be disciplined for it!

It is true that many false doctrines can still be forgiven if we place our faith totally and completely in the atoning mercies of Christ instead of the worthiness of our own efforts and inherent goodness.

But when a man has not even trusted in the Blood of Christ for forgiveness, he has no hope at all.

No hope but judgment!

 

[Studyman]

Just out of sheer curiosity what problem do you have with the Baptists? It was a little surprising to see that in their.

And the man who adopts the religious traditions and philosophies of the religious sect of the Catholic's would say "what problem do you have with the Catholics? It was a little surprising to see that in their". And the JW would say the same. The point is, these are all religious businesses and sects that existed in the world God placed you and I in, just as the religious sect of the Pharisees existed for those who were born in that time. What they all have in common with each other, is that they transgress God's commandments, Judgments and Statutes, in order to promote their own religious traditions, which vary from religious business to religious business. This is simply undeniable truth. It's the entire religious system of this world, especially those who call Jesus Lord, Lord, that we should "take heed" of. At least according to the Jesus "of the Bible".

Also do you think Christians are supposed to keep the food laws and OT feasts?

What is a Christian? A man who calls Jesus Lord, Lord?

Or is a Christian a man who denies himself, and "Lives by" Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God, like Jesus did and instructed me to do?

Is a "Christian" a man who adopts the religious high days and traditions of one of the many religious businesses of this world we were born into, "who come in Christ's Name"? Or is a Christian a man who "Yield's himself" to God, and yields his body "as instruments of righteousness unto God"?

For me, Jesus is my Lord, and I trust Him to guide me in the way that I should go. Not with just my lips, but by being a "Doer" of His Sayings, and not a hearer only. HE Said to me;

Matt. 6: 30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that "ye have need" of all these things.

33 But "seek ye first" the kingdom of God, and "his righteousness"; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Shall I not yield myself to my Fathers instruction, as my Lord Jesus just commanded me? And what will I find if I seek "God's Righteousness" concerning what is food, and what days HE esteems as Holy?

You already know because you have also heard God's Voice concerning these things. But because of the philosophies, traditions and doctrines of this world's religious system that you have adopted as your own, you live in transgression of them. As my post pointed out, you have been convinced that it IS NOT WICKED, to reject God's judgments and commandments in favor of your own religious traditions. Just as Eve was also convinced "by a voice that also professed to know God", that eating what God said not to eat, WAS NOT WICKED. But it was.

I am a father who has children. Is it not my responsibility and duty to direct my daughter regarding what is food and what is not? And I would expect her to trust me in this regard, Yes? Why would a man reject the same right of the God and Father of the Lord's Christ to do the same for His Children, that I demand for myself? And if I have so little Love and respect for this God that I stubbornly rebel against His instruction concerning something so simple and easy to understand as "What is food" for me, am I not then become a child of disobedience just like the Pharisees?

You are free to live as you choose in this life. I left the religious sect of the Baptist religion almost 30 years ago now, because living by their religious traditions, rituals, high days and judgments caused me to "work iniquity". Jesus taught against such a religion, warning me to "take heed" I am not deceived by them.

Every example of a "Christian" given in Scriptures was instructed to "Abstain" from eating and drinking that which God forbids His Children to eat and drink. The Kingdom of God is more than food and drink, nevertheless, "our heavenly Father "knoweth that ye have need of all these things". As Paul teaches;

Rom. 6: 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but "yield yourselves" unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, "and your members" as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Because I love the brethren, I am sharing the perspective of men who have "Come out of" this world's religious system as Jesus told me, "Be ye not therefore like unto them".

Does it matter? Certainly not to this world's religious businesses. But it did to the Jesus of the bible.

Thanks for the question Dizerner.

 

[Dizerner]

Uh, I'm not a Baptist. The reason I was surprised is because the majority of Evangelical Christians do not consider Baptists to be a cult.

The rest of your post is hard to understand. I would encourage you to write in a more direct and clear manner. A simple "yes" works.

 

[synergy]

I left the religious sect of the Baptist religion almost 30 years ago now, because living by their religious traditions, rituals, high days and judgments caused me to "work iniquity". Jesus taught against such a religion, warning me to "take heed" I am not deceived by them.

I'm curious. What Baptist "traditions, rituals, high days and judgments" did you take exception to?

 

[Studyman]

I'm curious. What Baptist "traditions, rituals, high days and judgments" did you take exception to?

I already spelled them out to you. If I remember correctly, you completely ignored the obvious and suggested that I was like a murderer for pointing them out.

Seems foolish to do so again, just to have you ignore them again.

 

[synergy]

I already spelled them out to you. If I remember correctly, you completely ignored the obvious and suggested that I was like a murderer for pointing them out.

Really??? Produce the quote or withdraw your accusation. Man up.

Seems foolish to do so again, just to have you ignore them again.

If you don't have ability to defend them I can understand why you would wish to hide them. Carry on.

 

[Studyman]

Really??? Produce the quote or withdraw your accusation. Man up.

If you don't have ability to defend them I can understand why you would wish to hide them. Carry on.

You compared me to Luigi Mangione, I can't find to post. I didn't know who he was at the time. You can find more truth about this world's religious system in #986 of this thread, as well as dozens of other posts I have made over the years.

Only you would say something as sophomoric and foolish as "Studyman hides his understanding of Scriptures". LOL, of course, you will have to defend your white as the driven snow honor. So have at it.

 

[Joe]

No post

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

King David entrusted himself to the undeserved atonement of God when he ended his entire Psalm 51 with complete acceptance of and homage to God's system of animal sacrifice wherein he laid his very sins upon them:

Then, shalt thou desire the sacrifices of righteousness, Ascending-sacrifice and whole burnt-offering, Then, shall ascend upon thine altar, young bulls. (Ps. 51:19)

Notice a "contrite heart" was not enough, but it had to be coupled with a sincere and real faith in God's atoning system of animal sacrifice (which Hebrews clearly tells us was a symbolic shadow of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ).

Dear friend

What you are stating here is false.

Are you reading carefully Psalm 51? I encourage you and our readers to do it.
The verse you are quoting is the last one of the psalm and starts with “Then..”
Any sacrifice would be appropriate to God only after true repentance has taken place. It would be an act of gratitude for the grace received, not an act of trade to obtain the grace.
King David knew that sacrifices did not atone for anything.

After you have repented you can offer inciense, animals or your harvest… or sing in joy, dance, speak in tongues, break the bread and drink the wine, give money for the poor or the temple, write a good post in Internet, be baptized, shave your hair, let your hair unshaved, put on linen underclothes, memorize texts from your sacred book, wash the feet of a fellow, start a pilgrimage, fast, etc.
No Sacrifice and no ritual has ever been the condition or requisite to attain God’s mercy.

If we believe that God requires blood or rituals as a condition for God’s grace we are no better than the most primitive Pagans. In fact, we are far worse, because we live in a time of knowledge. We should definitely know better.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Here is a transcription of the whole Psalm 51 (Modern English Version).
I invite all members of the Forum to read it in a reflective manner.

Have mercy on me, O God,
according to Your lovingkindness;
according to the abundance of Your compassion,
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I acknowledge my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against You, You only, have I sinned,
and done this evil in Your sight,
so that You are justified when You speak,
and You are blameless when You judge.
5 I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin my mother conceived me.
6 You desire truth in the inward parts,
and in the hidden part You make me to know wisdom.
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
that the bones that You have broken may rejoice.
9 Hide Your face from my sins,
and blot out all my iniquities.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
and renew a right spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence,
and do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
and uphold me with Your willing spirit.
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
and sinners will return to You.
14 Deliver me from blood guiltiness, O God,
God of my salvation,
and my tongue will sing aloud of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare Your praise.
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and a contrite heart,
O God, You will not despise.
18 Do good to Zion in Your good pleasure;
build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness,
with burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
then they will offer young bulls on Your altar

 

[civic]

Dear friend

What you are stating here is false.

Are you reading carefully Psalm 51? I encourage you and our readers to do it.
The verse you are quoting is the last one of the psalm and starts with “Then..”
Any sacrifice would be appropriate to God only after true repentance has taken place. It would be an act of gratitude for the grace received, not an act of trade to obtain the grace.
King David knew that sacrifices did not atone for anything.

After you have repented you can offer inciense, animals or your harvest… or sing in joy, dance, speak in tongues, break the bread and drink the wine, give money for the poor or the temple, write a good post in Internet, be baptized, shave your hair, let your hair unshaved, put on linen underclothes, memorize texts from your sacred book, wash the feet of a fellow, start a pilgrimage, fast, etc.
No Sacrifice and no ritual has ever been the condition or requisite to attain God’s mercy.

If we believe that God requires blood or rituals as a condition for God’s grace we are no better than the most primitive Pagans. In fact, we are far worse, because we live in a time of knowledge. We should definitely know better.

you are so wrong about God, the sacrificial system, sin, forgiveness, redemption, blood- and both the Old and New Covenants.

Blood is arguably one of the most important symbols of both the Old and New Testament. From the very first account of fratricide in the OT, blood plays a significant role in both the literal and symbolic sense:

• The LORD said, ‘What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. (Gen 4:10-11)

The imagery is vivid – the personified blood of Abel cries out to God for justice. Justice in turn requires restitution. In the covenant that God makes with Noah and his descendants, God declares that when human blood is shed, restitution must also be made in blood:

• ‘Whoever sheds human blood, by humans shall their blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made mankind. (Gen 9:6)

This principle of blood for blood or “life for life” is key to the system of justice and the rituals of atonement in the Old Testament. Blood represents both the life that is taken, as well as the life that is offered for the atonement of sin.

• Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution – life for life. (Lev 24:17-18)

Figuratively, blood represents death, or sin and separation from God, on the one hand; and new life, or restitution and reconciliation with God, on the other. And just as sin can be said to leave the stain of blood, the blood that is offered in atonement washes away the stain of sin.

• But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear. For your hands are stained with blood, your fingers with guilt. (Is 59:2-3)
• “He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites. (Lev 7: 18-19)

But in the NT, the blood of Christ represents both the sin and the offering, both the life that is taken and the life that is given and offered for the forgiveness of sins. His blood, alone unstained by sin, reconciles all who sin with God. Unlike the blood of Abel that cried out for justice, the blood of Christ opens the way for God's mercy. It is the blood of the new covenant and brings to fulfillment God’s ultimate vision of peace for mankind.

• But you have come to… Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks of something better than Abel’s does. (Heb 12:22-24) Nhi @ Biblical Hermenuetics Stack Exchange

Lets examine more in the N.T about the Blood of Christ and the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

A Walk through Hebrews

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.


6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ​

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,so that we may serve the living God!


15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. 16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood/life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood/life that He gave on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal/sacrifice. Notice there is no punishment anywhere above for sin.

in your own words to @Dizerner - " Notice that you, an intelligent being, are talking nonsense. " and I will add biblical nonsense.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Notice a "contrite heart" was not enough, but it had to be coupled with a sincere and real faith in God's atoning system of animal sacrifice (which Hebrews clearly tells us was a symbolic shadow of the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ).

Notice that you, an intelligent being, are talking nonsense.
If the atoning system were a requisite, God would have urged Israel to build hundreds or maybe thousands of tabernacles, one in each village, since most people could make the long pilgrimage trip to the temple in Jerusalem only few times per year, or once a year, or less than once a year for those living in the far countries of the Mediterranean basis.
How would God forgive the peasant who had stolen a goat from his neighbor, if he could not perform the ritual but once a year? Would the peasant be kept in his sin, unforgiven, for months?

Have you wondered how did God forgive the sins of the Israelites exiled in Babylon over 70 years? Why didn’t the prophets urged those Jews in exile to build small, modest, home-made tabernacles to perform animal sacrifices and be forgiven?

Have you wondered why Paul found synagogues, but not tabernacles for animal sacrifices, when he started preaching the gospel in Corinth, Ephesus, Athens or Rome?

Worshipping idols is associated with superstition. Worshipping the One and True God should not be associated with superstition.
Believing that God demands blood in exchange of mercy is mere superstition.
Demanding others to believe superstition as a requisite to be saved is… [placeholder for an appropriate adjective].

Not so much a "new requisite" at all my friend, when God himself shows the representation of his Most Holiest Place on the chest of the covenant required blood to be regularly sprinkled on our behalf. We cannot then reject our need of this blood.

That was not a requisite, neither old nor new. You are referring to a ritual. Do you believe that rituals are requisites for God’s mercy?
Besides, God never explained the Israelites that such ritual prefigured the future atonement of a Messiah.
That explanation came many centuries later, post hoc, as a didactic tool for Hebrews to accept Christ.

 

[Joe]

Why do you call self-righteousness a life of submission to God in such a Muslim?
Can't you see the big mistake you are making? Please reflect on that.
You are invalidating a true transformation operated by God and calling it "self-righteousness" because that Muslim does not hold your theological views on crucifixion and resurrection. If that person were a Baptist, would you be calling it "self-righteousness"?

You are arguing with the wrong person. Take it up with the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One who said...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Joh 3:16-18)

What does the bold red text say? Does it say an unbelieving Muslim is saved by what he does? Or does it say an unbelieving Muslim is condemned already for not believing in the name of God's own Son?

I have declared many times in my responses this very simple basic truth of God's salvation, His forgiveness of sin and transformation of life: "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." (Rom 10:9-13)

If anyone repents and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, they will be saved.

Anyone who does so is no longer a follower of anyone but Jesus Christ. This means the atheist is no longer following a religious belief of unbelief, and is no longer called an atheist any more. That person would reject being called an atheist because they have repented, believed, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, God's own Son. The same goes with everyone, including a Muslim. A Muslim would reject being called a Muslim because they have repented, believed, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, God's own Son.

The unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day thought they could merit salvation by doing good, and so does the Muslim who disbelieves in the Lord Jesus Christ. Both stand condemned already, no matter how good one lives their life. Why? Because, "whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Why is this so hard for you to believe the Son of God's testimony? Did He lie? Or is He telling the truth and you don't accept it?

Jesus on the cross did not wait for the polytheistic Roman Soldiers to know about Him and make any confession with their mouths about who he was. Jesus acted as a Mediator for the Roman soldiers and asked God to forgive them. Why, then, don't you think that the same Jesus can act as a Mediator for the monotheistic Muslims, who worship the same God that Jesus worshiped and believe Jesus was sent by God as the Messiah?

If you want to know who believes in Jesus and who disbeliefs, what is the test you apply? What is the test that Jesus Himself applies?

Let's get this straight, the Muslims do not worship the God of the Jews; otherwise, He would be called the God of the Muslims not the Jews. So, you can stop with this contradiction and simply admit the god of the Muslim faith is of demonic origin, coming from a man who was obviously possessed in the 7th century. It is the newest of all major religions and promotes a false god.

As for Jesus calling out in intercession during His crucifixion, Jesus was asking His Father to forgive all those guilty for their murderous actions towards Him, and God answered by not condemning them to death but showed them mercy. The crowd went home after all that happened in great sorrow. And then fifty days later on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit of the Lord came and many of the disbelieving Jews who fifty days before opposed Jesus believed and were baptized. As for the Romans and the rest of the Gentiles, they were mercifully offered eternal life by God, the forgiveness of their sins that Jesus asked for by hearing the Gospel message of His Son.

The test for believing in Jesus is quite simple, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." (Rom 10:9-13)

An atheist can stop stealing money from people because he is pricked in his conscience. This doesn't mean God caused him to stop. He stopped on his own volition according to his own conscience. The atheist still stands condemned for "he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

A Muslim can stop raping infidel women and children because he is pricked in his conscience. This doesn't mean God caused him to stop. He stopped on his own volition according to his own conscience. The Muslim still stands condemned for "he has not believed in the name of the only Son.

There is only one Way, Truth, and Life and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Anything "good" a man will do outside of believing and living for Him will not save Him, for "he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" that died for His sins and arose to give Him eternal life.

It is a rather simple salvation to understand. A person is a burning building that has many doors, but only one door leads out from being consumed by the flames. The architect of the building tells him to exit the single door that leads to life, but he takes another door because he disbelieves the architect. Along the way to the wrong door, the person helps others who are hurting from the tragedy, but he doesn't change his mind about disbelieving the architect and still takes the wrong door. He is consumed by the flames.

What does his good works do him by disbelieving the architect that was telling him the door to take? Will his good works save him from disbelieving the architect? No, he is consumed by the flames for his disbelief.

And what good does it do anyone who disbelieves God's own Son and His testimony? Will his good works save him from disbelieving in the One who died and arose to save him? No, he is consumed by the flames for his disbelief.

If you desire to save people, save yourself by repenting and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. And then you will be able to lead them to the single door to eternal life. The road to the flames is wide and many go that way. The road to eternal life is narrow and few take it.


God Bless

 

[civic]

You are arguing with the wrong person. Take it up with the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the One who said...

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Joh 3:16-18)

What does the bold red text say? Does it say an unbelieving Muslim is saved by what he does? Or does it say an unbelieving Muslim is condemned already for not believing in the name of God's own Son?

I have declared many times in my responses this very simple basic truth of God's salvation, His forgiveness of sin and transformation of life: "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." (Rom 10:9-13)

If anyone repents and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and believes in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, they will be saved.

Anyone who does so is no longer a follower of anyone but Jesus Christ. This means the atheist is no longer following a religious belief of unbelief, and is no longer called an atheist any more. That person would reject being called an atheist because they have repented, believed, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, God's own Son. The same goes with everyone, including a Muslim. A Muslim would reject being called a Muslim because they have repented, believed, and follow the Lord Jesus Christ, God's own Son.

The unbelieving Jews of Jesus' day thought they could merit salvation by doing good, and so does the Muslim who disbelieves in the Lord Jesus Christ. Both stand condemned already, no matter how good one lives their life. Why? Because, "whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Why is this so hard for you to believe the Son of God's testimony? Did He lie? Or is He telling the truth and you don't accept it?


Let's get this straight, the Muslims do not worship the God of the Jews; otherwise, He would be called the God of the Muslims not the Jews. So, you can stop with this contradiction and simply admit the God of the Muslim faith is of demonic origin, coming from a man who was obviously possessed in the 7th century. It is the newest of all major religions and promotes a false god.

As for Jesus calling out in intercession during His crucifixion, Jesus was asking His Father to forgive all those guilty for their murderous actions towards Him, and God answered by not condemning them to death but showed them mercy. The crowd went home after all that happened in great sorrow. And then fifty days later on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit of the Lord came and many of the disbelieving Jews who fifty days before opposed Jesus believed and were baptized. As for the Romans and the rest of the Gentiles, they were mercifully offered eternal life by God, the forgiveness of their sins that Jesus asked for by hearing the Gospel message of His Son.

The test for believing in Jesus is quite simple, "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED." (Rom 10:9-13)

An atheist can stop stealing money from people because he is pricked in his conscience. This doesn't mean God caused him to stop. He stopped on his own volition according to his own conscience. The atheist still stands condemned for "he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

A Muslim can stop raping infidel women and children because he is pricked in his conscience. This doesn't mean God caused him to stop. He stopped on his own volition according to his own conscience. The Muslim still stands condemned for "he has not believed in the name of the only Son.

There is only one Way, Truth, and Life and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. No one comes to the Father except through Him. Anything "good" a man will do outside of believing and living for Him will not save Him, for "he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" that died for His sins and arose to give Him eternal life.

It is a rather simple salvation to understand. A person is a burning building that has many doors, but only one door leads out from being consumed by the flames. The architect of the building tells him to exit the single door that leads to life, but he takes another door because he disbelieves the architect. Along the way to the wrong door, the person helps others who are hurting from the tragedy, but he doesn't change his mind about disbelieving the architect and still takes the wrong door. He is consumed by the flames.

What does his good works do him by disbelieving the architect that was telling him the door to take? Will his good works save him from disbelieving the architect? No, he is consumed by the flames for his disbelief.

And what good does it do anyone who disbelieves God's own Son and His testimony? Will his good works save him from disbelieving in the One who died and arose to save him? No, he is consumed by the flames for his disbelief.

If you desire to save people, save yourself by repenting and believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. And then you will be able to lead them to the single door to eternal life. The road to the flames is wide and many go that way. The road to eternal life is narrow and few take it.


God Bless

And notice how the person tries to bypass the blood of Jesus in salvation. no shedding of blood , no forgiveness of sins. As we both know the Atonement of Jesus, the forgiveness of sins comes directly as Jesus taught from His own blood, the blood of the New Covenant which was given for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Its actually another gospel, a false gospel and christ, another jesus.

And as you and I both know the gospel cannot be compromised its salvific and essential/core doctrine that cannot be denied.