God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[Pancho Frijoles]

Your reaction reveals that this debate was lost before it even began. Scripture reminds us, “A wise man listens to advice, but a fool gives full vent to his spirit” (Proverbs 12:15; Proverbs 29:11). Let’s focus on what the Word of God says rather than emotional responses.

No sir.
I'm not appealing to emotional responses, but to an analysis of real life scenarios, so that you prove the value of your theology on real-life scenarios. Otherwise, theology is empty of any meaning and value.
I strongly reject your presupposition that my scenario of the Sikh and Catholic who had stolen 1000 USD is an emotional appeal.

Are the stories said by Jesus "emotional appeals", or do they convey eternal truths?

So, Who will God forgive: the Sikh, the Catholic, both, or none?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

God’s forgiveness is rooted in the atoning work of Christ, not in a vague idea of divine benevolence.

A vague idea of divine benevolence? Or faith in divine benevolence?
God's forgiveness is rooted in his Mercy, as Jesus taught. and as all prophets have taught.
This is sound doctrine, directly from Jesus lips and present across the Bible.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Both Jews and Gentiles will be judged according to the standards that God sets, not what you set.

Absolutely. I agree.
And they will forgiven according to the standards that God sets, not what you set.
You have set requirements that God never set, that Jesus never set.
I'm proving through the gospels that Jesus never ever set the claims you set.

So far, nobody in the Forum has been able to explain

• Why Jesus missed to explain the new key conditions for forgiveness and salvation across his parables and sermons.
• How your theology applies to explain God's forgiveness to the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD and repented.

 

[Johann]

No sir.
I'm not appealing to emotional responses, but to an analysis of real life scenarios, so that you show the value of your theology on real-life scenarios. Otherwise, theology is empty of any meaning and value.
I strongly reject your presupposition that my scenario of the Sikh and Catholic who had stolen 1000 USD is an emotional appeal.

Are the stories said by Jesus "emotional appeals", or do they convey eternal truths?

So, Who will God forgive: the Sikh, the Catholic, both, or none?

Already addressed, and your arguments seem to be falling on deaf ears. You might as well concede, @Pancho Frijoles, without offering any further counter-rebuttals.


Bahá'ís often emphasize their belief in progressive revelation, where God sends different messengers at various times to guide humanity. While they respect the Bible, including the Pauline epistles, they interpret it through the lens of Bahá'u'lláh’s teachings. This leads to tensions with Christian doctrine, especially when Paul's writings emphasize salvation through Christ alone, grace, and the exclusivity of His atonement.

Here are key reasons Bahá'ís might seem evasive or dismissive about the Pauline epistles:

1. The Exclusivity of Salvation in Paul’s Writings
Paul's emphasis on salvation exclusively through Jesus Christ (e.g., Romans 10:9, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 15:3-4) contradicts the Bahá'í view that all religions are equally valid paths to God.

Bahá'í Perspective:
Bahá'u'lláh taught that all major religions are divinely inspired and lead to the same God. This universalism clashes with Paul's teaching of salvation through Christ alone. As a result, Bahá'ís may downplay or reinterpret Paul’s epistles.

2. Emphasis on Grace Versus Works
Paul’s writings emphasize salvation by grace through faith (e.g., Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:28), whereas Bahá'í teachings emphasize personal effort, good deeds, and moral improvement as necessary for spiritual progress.

Quote from Bahá'í Writings:
“The essence of faith is fewness of words and abundance of deeds; he whose words exceed his deeds, know verily, his death is better than his life.” (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh, Kalimat-i-Firdawsiyyih).

This focus on deeds can lead Bahá'ís to reject Paul’s teachings about grace as central to salvation.

3. Doctrine of Christ’s Divinity and Resurrection
Paul unequivocally teaches Christ’s divinity and the necessity of belief in His resurrection for salvation (e.g., Romans 1:4, 1 Corinthians 15:17). Bahá'ís interpret Jesus’ resurrection symbolically, not literally, which conflicts with Paul’s clear teaching that the resurrection is the cornerstone of Christian faith.

Bahá'í Writings:
“The resurrections of the Divine Manifestations are not of the body... but they signify the renewal of the divine laws...” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions).

This symbolic interpretation leads to skepticism or reinterpretation of Paul’s writings.

4. Dislike of Paul's Authority in Christian Doctrine
Paul is a central figure in defining Christian theology, especially concerning the nature of salvation, justification, and the role of the Law. Bahá'ís, who focus on the unity of religions, often resist Paul’s distinction between Christianity and other systems of belief (e.g., Galatians 2:16, Romans 7:6).

Quote from Bahá'í Writings:
“They have forsaken His Cause, rejected His proofs, and disputed His signs... by reason of the idle fancies which their corrupt inclinations prompted them to pursue.” (Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Íqán).

This type of critique, though generalized, is often applied to what Bahá'ís see as "man-made" interpretations of religion, which some associate with Paul's theology.

Conclusion
Bahá'ís’ evasiveness toward Pauline epistles stems from their foundational belief in universalism, their works-based approach to faith, and symbolic interpretations of key Christian doctrines like the resurrection. They often focus more on Jesus’ ethical teachings in the Gospels rather than Paul's theological explanations of salvation.

This divergence in focus and interpretation is why they may appear dismissive or evasive regarding Paul’s writings.

Concede brother-there's no other option.

J.

 

[Johann]

Absolutely. I agree.
And they will forgiven according to the standards that God sets, not what you set.
You have set requirements that God never set, that Jesus never set.
I'm proving through the gospels that Jesus never ever set the claims you set.

So far, nobody in the Forum has been able to explain

• Why Jesus missed to explain the new key conditions for forgiveness and salvation across his parables and sermons.
• How your theology applies to explain God's forgiveness to the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD and repented.

Concede @Pancho Frijoles

Did Jesus "miss" explaining forgiveness and salvation conditions in His teachings?
No, Jesus clearly taught the foundational principles of salvation and forgiveness in alignment with God’s redemptive plan, which culminates in His death and resurrection. To claim He "missed" explaining these conditions misrepresents His teachings and ministry.

Jesus explicitly tied forgiveness to belief in Him:

In John 3:16-18, Jesus teaches:
“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

Jesus didn’t miss the key conditions for salvation; He declared belief in Him as the central requirement.

Jesus referenced His atoning death as the basis for salvation:
In Matthew 26:28, during the Last Supper, Jesus said:
“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
His sacrificial death was always central to His message.

Parables and teachings presuppose the listener’s response to Christ:
The parables often emphasize repentance and faith, but their ultimate fulfillment is in Christ’s redemptive work (e.g., the Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15:11-32 demonstrates God’s forgiveness but assumes a relationship with the Father, a metaphor for God).

Claiming that Jesus omitted critical doctrines fails to recognize that His teachings point toward His work on the cross and the necessity of faith in Him.

2. How does Christian theology explain God's forgiveness for the Sikh who stole $1,000 and repented?

Christian theology teaches that repentance alone is insufficient for salvation apart from faith in Christ. While repentance is a step in turning toward God, forgiveness is grounded in the atoning work of Jesus. Without faith in Christ, there is no justification before God.

Forgiveness is available only through Jesus Christ:

In Acts 4:12, Peter declares:
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

While the Sikh may experience a sense of moral repentance, true forgiveness and reconciliation with God are only possible through Christ.

Even moral people fall short without Christ:

In Romans 3:23-24, Paul states:
“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Regardless of sincerity or remorse, everyone needs the redemption found only in Jesus.

God’s judgment is impartial and based on the revelation of Christ:

In John 14:6, Jesus Himself says:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

No alternative path=be it religious sincerity or moral repentance=can bypass Christ.

Conclusion:
Jesus did not "miss" anything; His teachings consistently pointed to His role as the Savior, and the conditions for salvation-faith and repentance-were fulfilled through His death and resurrection.
]
For the Sikh, true forgiveness requires faith in Christ as the only mediator between God and humanity (1 Timothy 2:5-6). While repentance is commendable, forgiveness cannot be divorced from the gospel message, which makes Christ’s sacrifice essential for salvation.

The Bahá'í framework diminishes the necessity of Jesus’ atoning work, but Scripture affirms its centrality. Rejecting this is to misunderstand God’s redemptive plan as revealed in the Bible.

You are standing on a wrong foundation and let the readers decide who is speaking the truth.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's keep reviewing what Jesus Himself taught about forgiveness.
We all know the story... or don't we? It is in Luke 11:15-32, commonly known as the parable of the Prodigal Son.

How does Jesus explain that God forgives?

1. The son recognizes he does not deserve to be treated as a son. The Father, though, treats him as a son anyway.
2. The Father does not demand from the prodigal son the restitution of his share of the state.
3. The Father does not ask the prodigal son to look for someone else who could pay the debt.
4. The brother of the prodigal son does not offer his own share of the estate to pay for his brother so that he can be admitted home.
5. The Father does not condition his forgiveness to the proper answering of questions about the Father's life, or deeds, or thoughts.
6. The Father forgives the son for the mere fact he loves the son (and never stopped loving him), and the son has repented.

Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.​

​

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.​

​

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.​

​

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.​

​

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’​

​

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.​

​

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’​

​

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’​

​

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”​

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Concede @Pancho Frijoles

Did Jesus "miss" explaining forgiveness and salvation conditions in His teachings?

Of course not. That's my point.
Since Jesus could not have missed or forgotten to teach us the essentials of forgiveness and salvation, the fact that He never demanded from the sinner a belief in his deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection, as a CONDITION for forgiveness, proves that God does not require that.

Jesus explicitly tied forgiveness to belief in Him:

In John 3:16-18, Jesus teaches:
“For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

The verse you are quoting does not indicate that a person has to believe He is God, or paid our debts with blood, or was resurrected with a physical body. Where in the verse you see that?

Jesus didn’t miss the key conditions for salvation; He declared belief in Him as the central requirement.

Jesus referenced His atoning death as the basis for salvation:
In Matthew 26:28, during the Last Supper, Jesus said:
“This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”
His sacrificial death was always central to His message.

Have you wondered why Jesus pronounced those words in the Passover?
Jesus was replacing a concept (blood atonement through the death of innocent animals) with another concept (blood atonement through his own death). But God's mercy was never conditioned to the sacrifice of animals in the first place.

Now, one thing is to say that Jesus died for our sins (which I do believe, although not as a substitutionary atonement) and a very different thing to believe that people MUST ADHERE to such doctrine as a condition to be forgiven.

The fact that Jesus prayed to his Father in the cross for the Roman soldiers who casted lots on this garments, proves that those Romans did not need to assent to that doctrine in order to enjoy the intercession of Christ.

So, if you believe that Christ is right now interceding for us (which is noble and beautiful) please accept that Christ is also interceding for the Sikh, regardless of what the Sikh thinks about intercessions.

2. How does Christian theology explain God's forgiveness for the Sikh who stole $1,000 and repented?

Christian theology teaches that repentance alone is insufficient for salvation apart from faith in Christ. While repentance is a step in turning toward God, forgiveness is grounded in the atoning work of Jesus. Without faith in Christ, there is no justification before God.

Forgiveness is available only through Jesus Christ:

In Acts 4:12, Peter declares:
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

While the Sikh may experience a sense of moral repentance, true forgiveness and reconciliation with God are only possible through Christ.

The Sikh is doing what Christ asked us to do: seek forgiveness with genuine repentance.
The Sikh is following Christ and honoring Christ.

However, if I understand you correctly, you think that God does not forgive the Sikh.
You think YOU can forgive the Sikh (for example, if he had stolen from you), but you think that God does not.

Am I being accurate in interpreting you?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No alternative path=be it religious sincerity or moral repentance=can bypass Christ.

What you are finding difficult to understand, my brother, is that moral, sincere repentance IS the Way of Christ. It is not bypassing Christ.
If the Sikh shows genuine repentance, He is going through Christ and Christ is interceding for him. And that's why you see Sikhs being transformed from dishonest to honest, just like a Christian or a Jew.
The transformation experienced by the Sikh is evidence that Christ lives in him.

Let me give you an example of a Sikh trying to bypass Christ:

The Sikh tries to hide, and to keep his fraud unnoticed. He tries to get away without punishment. He tries to avoid the pain and shame of confessing his sin. He plans to keep committing fraud as long as he is not caught by the community or the police.
That would be bypassing Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are standing on a wrong foundation and let the readers decide who is speaking the truth.

Dear readers:

This is what Jesus has to say about what is a wrong foundation and a right foundation.

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’​

​

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”​

So, my brothers, unlike your pastors may have taught you, the good foundation is to practice the teachings of Jesus, and the wrong foundation to dismiss those teachings and disobey them. To have faith in Jesus Christ means to pay heed to Him.

The good foundation is NOT a set of beliefs about Jesus deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection. Demons can also confess and explain those doctrines in eloquent words, and still remain lost.

 

[Johann]

Dear readers:

This is what Jesus has to say about what is a wrong foundation and a right foundation.

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’​

​

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”​

So, my brothers, unlike your pastors may have taught you, the good foundation is to practice the teachings of Jesus, and the wrong foundation to dismiss those teachings and disobey them. To have faith in Jesus Christ means to pay heed to Him.

The good foundation is NOT a set of beliefs about Jesus deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection. Demons can also confess and explain those doctrines in eloquent words, and still remain lost.

Dear readers-

The Bahá'í Faith does not view the "gospel" as Christians do, focusing on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the foundation for salvation. Instead, the Bahá'í perspective on the "gospel" is part of their broader belief in progressive revelation, where all major religions are seen as chapters in a single, unified divine message.

Here’s an overview of what the "gospel" might mean according to the Bahá'í Faith:

1. Progressive Revelation
Bahá'ís believe that God sends different messengers or "Manifestations of God" (e.g., Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Bahá'u'lláh) at various times in history to reveal His will. Each messenger provides teachings appropriate for the era and the capacity of humanity at that time.

The message of Jesus, including love, mercy, and forgiveness, is seen as one stage in humanity's spiritual development.
Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, is considered the latest and most complete revelation from God. His teachings are believed to fulfill and expand upon the previous religions.
Relevant Quote from Bahá'í Writings:
“There is no doubt that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God.” (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh).

2. Universal Gospel
In Bahá'í theology, the "gospel" is understood as the principles of love, unity, and moral conduct taught by Jesus, which Bahá'ís believe align with the teachings of other faiths. However, the Bahá'í Faith rejects the exclusivity of the Christian gospel—particularly the idea that salvation comes only through Jesus Christ.

Key Differences:

Bahá'ís emphasize unity in diversity rather than the uniqueness of Jesus’ salvific work.
The resurrection of Jesus is often interpreted symbolically, and doctrines like the Trinity and atonement are not accepted.

Relevant Quote:
“The purpose of religion as revealed from the heaven of God's holy Will is to establish unity and concord amongst the peoples of the world.” (Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh).

3. Salvation in the Bahá'í Faith
The Bahá'í concept of salvation focuses on personal spiritual growth, good deeds, and service to humanity. While repentance and turning toward God are valued, there is no belief in atonement for sin through Jesus Christ. Instead, salvation is seen as a process of spiritual refinement across this life and possibly the next.

Bahá'í View on Jesus’ Gospel:

Bahá'ís regard Jesus as a divine teacher whose teachings about love and forgiveness are timeless.
However, they believe Jesus' role was specific to His time and that Bahá'u'lláh has brought the message for the current age.

Rejection of Exclusivity:
The Bahá'í Faith rejects the Christian gospel’s exclusive claim that salvation comes only through Jesus. They see such exclusivity as divisive and contrary to the unity they believe God desires.

Relevant Quote from Bahá'u'lláh:
“Consort with all religions with amity and concord, that they may inhale from you the sweet fragrance of God.” (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh).

Conclusion
In the Bahá'í Faith, the "gospel" is a universal message of love, unity, and moral guidance rather than the specific teachings of Jesus about His divinity, atoning sacrifice, and resurrection. The Christian gospel, with its focus on Jesus as the only way to salvation (John 14:6), is replaced with the idea of progressive revelation and Bahá'u'lláh’s teachings as the culmination of God’s message for humanity.

Martyrs for a wrong cause.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear readers-

The Bahá'í Faith does not view the "gospel" as Christians do, focusing on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the foundation for salvation. Instead, the Bahá'í perspective on the "gospel" is part of their broader belief in progressive revelation, where all major religions are seen as chapters in a single, unified divine message.

Hi Johann

This is a gentle reminder that we are not discussing the Bahai Faith in this thread. There is a thread that was open by the @Administrator to exchange views on that religion.

Please consider that if I were a Buddhist or atheist, that would not change the validity or lack of validity of the arguments, or the refutation you would give to those arguments.
I could also be a virtual, non-human agent produced by artificial intelligence (not of a high quality, I must confess ) that follows algorithms to simulate a debate. I suspect one day we will be debating with robots in the Internet on religious beliefs... but the funny thing is that we may not realize we are talking to robots at all!

On the other hand, I thank you because your posts about the Baha'i Faith are mostly very accurate and respectful.
Your behavior reflects the love of Jesus, and I feel thankful to God for you.

 

[Johann]

Hi Johann

This is a gentle reminder that we are not discussing the Bahai Faith in this thread. There is a thread that was open by the @Administrator to exchange views on that religion.

Please consider that if I were a Buddhist or atheist, that would not change the validity or lack of validity of the arguments, or the refutation you would give to those arguments.
I could also be a virtual, non-human agent produced by artificial intelligence (not of a high quality, I must confess ) that follows algorithms to simulate a debate. I suspect one day we will be debating with robots in the Internet on religious beliefs... but the funny thing is that we may not realize we are talking to robots at all!

On the other hand, I thank you because your posts about the Baha'i Faith are mostly very accurate and respectful.
Your behavior reflects the love of Jesus, and I feel thankful to God for you.

You are avoiding direct engagement with the Pauline epistles, the cross, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, instead redefining these central truths of Scripture to promote your own religious perspective. This is a subtle attempt to introduce another gospel, which stands contrary to what is written in Scripture, and you do so with the apparent consent of the @Administrator.

Rather than addressing questions about the Christian faith, which you are aware of, you deflect and answer with further questions.

The tools I employ, including Scriptural study, are sufficient for me, and your arguments stand refuted. What you may not realize is that I have full permission from the Administrator to use ChatGPT as I see fit. You are not having a dialogue with artificial intelligence; you are engaging with me directly, and your position has been refuted. At this point, it would be more appropriate for you to concede.

During my time away from this Forum, I have grown in understanding, and it is evident that the message you bring is another gospel-a pseudo-gospel-being propagated on a Christian platform.

As Scripture states:
"For the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but powerful to God for the tearing down of fortresses, tearing down arguments and all pride that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. And we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is completed" (2 Corinthians 10:4-6, LEB).

I implore you to reflect on your actions and the potential stumbling blocks you may be placing before others. It is better to concede than to persist in spreading teachings contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

J.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Let's continue examining Jesus teachings on forgiveness:

Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. (Luke 6:36)

We cannot be greater than God in any attribute. Do we agree on this?
So, if Jesus asked us to be merciful just as God is merciful, it is because God's Mercy is infinitely superior than ours.

So, if we are required to show mercy the Sikh who stole from us 1000 USD, and I know that you all would warm-heartedly show him mercy, why would we think that God will be less merciful than us?

None of us would put as a condition to the Sikh to confess that Jesus is God or that resurrected physically.
We would forgive him regardless of those beliefs, precisely because the Holy Spirit dwells in us.
Why would anyone think, then, that God will place more conditions that the ones God asks us to place?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are avoiding direct engagement with the Pauline epistles,

I'll do it later. I promise.
But first things first
We should all understand what Jesus Himself taught about forgiveness, in the most explicit and eloquent terms.
Jesus was not a disciple of Paul. Paul was a disciple of Jesus.
Jesus chose Paul to preach his gospel to Gentiles. Not to invent a new gospel, particularly on the most essential issues. Do we all agree?
So, our understanding of what Paul said must align with our understanding of what Jesus said. Not the other way around.

the cross, the death, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ, instead redefining these central truths of Scripture to promote your own religious perspective.

My religious perspective is the one you had when you were a 5-year-old.
It is the perspective that everyone in this Forum had as a child, regardless of their current religious affiliation.
(Well, I am assuming that all of you had loving parents who showed you how to forgive and be forgiven).

I think you still have that perspective. It is still there, deep in your heart.
You know that God will forgive the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD. You know it, because the Holy Spirit whispers that in your heart.

 

[synergy]

Absolutely. I agree.
And they will forgiven according to the standards that God sets, not what you set.
You have set requirements that God never set, that Jesus never set.
I'm proving through the gospels that Jesus never ever set the claims you set.

So far, nobody in the Forum has been able to explain

• Why Jesus missed to explain the new key conditions for forgiveness and salvation across his parables and sermons.
• How your theology applies to explain God's forgiveness to the Sikh who stole the 1000 USD and repented.

You accusing the Bible of not promoting the Cross is like me accusing the Quran of promoting the Cross. Muslims would think I've lost my mind if I accused the Quran of promoting the Cross, and it's no different here with what you're doing with the Bible. Believe your Muslim colleagues' reactions if you don't believe Christians.

On that basis, let's explore what's truly at stake here. Forgiveness from God goes way beyond a "I forgive you" response. It goes straight into our salvation which is the removal of the death disease/curse that all of mankind is infected of, as a result of our sins. Who can truly cure us of death which is what our sins produced? Who will step up to the plate and truly cure us of sin? Who and How??? Elon Musk and his computer chip link to the human brain? Who???

 

[civic]

Hi Johann

This is a gentle reminder that we are not discussing the Bahai Faith in this thread. There is a thread that was open by the @Administrator to exchange views on that religion.

Please consider that if I were a Buddhist or atheist, that would not change the validity or lack of validity of the arguments, or the refutation you would give to those arguments.
I could also be a virtual, non-human agent produced by artificial intelligence (not of a high quality, I must confess ) that follows algorithms to simulate a debate. I suspect one day we will be debating with robots in the Internet on religious beliefs... but the funny thing is that we may not realize we are talking to robots at all!

On the other hand, I thank you because your posts about the Baha'i Faith are mostly very accurate and respectful.
Your behavior reflects the love of Jesus, and I feel thankful to God for you.

Yes we should keep this to the teachings within the New Testament. This is where the gospel is defined for us.

 

[Studyman]

I suggest you focus on responding to the Scriptures that @synergy has shared, rather than diverting with unrelated questions. Ignoring what’s presented and shifting the discussion is intellectually dishonest, @Pancho Frijoles.

I can no longer stay quiet. Pancho posted the Lord's Prayer, Jesus' teaching to Peter on forgiveness, in line with the topic of his thread, which is forgiveness. Why not engage in an honest discussion of Jesus' Parables concerning forgiveness, which is the topic of this thread, instead of trying to "divert" away from the topic of forgiveness, while accusing Pancho of dishonesty? Please consider:

Gal. 6: 1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Col. 3: 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Is he not right concerning forgiveness? You can call Jesus God and sing praises to Him with your lips in the Synagogues every week, and preach to the world HE is truly the Christ who died for your sins. But if you are only a hearer of His Sayings, not a doer, and lack the capacity to forgive others, or are even willing to discuss Jesus' parables on forgiveness with a "non-Christian", how are you better than a Pharisee?

" 3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

After all, Paul said you will be judged by your Deeds, not Pancho's.

Καταλλάσσω (katallassō): Reconcile, meaning to restore a relationship that has been broken. This term emphasizes how Jesus' death "ends the hostility between sinners and God."
Θυμός (thymos): Wrath, representing God’s righteous anger toward sin.

Jesus forgives our sin debt by reconciling us to God. His death satisfies God’s wrath, turning us from enemies into children of God. This reconciliation is the foundation of forgiveness and peace with God.

In Romans, Paul poses a question to the Church of God.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Why not? You just pasted a doctrine, a popular doctrine of this world's religious system I might add, that "Jesus' death "ends the hostility between sinners and God."

So why then, in Paul's Gospel, does he say to the question, "Shall we sin because we are under grace", does he answer, "GOD FORBID". That means No! Yes? But in your gospel, Jesus' death "ends the hostility between sinners and God." So whose gospel shall I choose? Why would Paul tell us sin matters, if Jesus' Death "ends God's Wrath against the unrighteousness and ungodliness of men"?

Let's let him answer this contradiction between your gospel, and the Gospel of Christ.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin "unto death", or of obedience "unto righteousness"?

But wait a minute Johann, you just got done preaching to Pancho that the Death of Christ ""ends the hostility between sinners and God."

But here, Paul is saying that Jesus' Death didn't end God's hostility towards sinners at all. That Sin still brings death to members of God's Church, even years after Jesus ascended to His Father. What else does Paul teach.

17 But God be thanked, that ye "were" the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made "free from sin", "ye became" "the servants" of righteousness.

So then a man can call Jesus "God", and preach in His Name, and have a theology degree in Greek and Hebrew, and preach they are saved by the sacrificial Blood of Jesus, but if they continue to Transgress God's commandments, He said HE doesn't even know them.

So according to the Christ's Gospel, which is worse, a man who calls Him God, who preaches in His Name, tells everyone he is saved by the death of Jesus, but refuses to "Yield themselves" in obedience to God as He instructs?

Or a man who doesn't call Jesus "God", but Lord, and believes that "blood" means Life and therefore they are "Saved" by adopting the "Life" of Jesus as their own, which means they are "doers" of His Sayings and not hearers only?

 

[Studyman]

Yes we should keep this to the teachings within the New Testament. This is where the gospel is defined for us.

According to Paul, the Gospel of Christ is the Law and Prophets that HE said he believed all that was written in. That Jesus showed His Disciples all that was written about Him.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faithSee Hebrews 11) as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it (Gospel of Christ) unto them.

Heb. 4: 2 For "unto us" was the gospel preached, "as well as unto them": but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith (Belief) in them that heard it.

There is no true Gospel of Christ without the Law and Prophets.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures "the things concerning himself".

The New Testament wasn't even written yet, Paul was still persecuting the "Church of God".

And Zacharias, Simeon, and Anna all knew and believed in the Gospel of Christ, as it is written.

Luke 2: 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him "to all them that looked for redemption" in Jerusalem.

Clearly Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men all mixed the hearing of the Gospel of Christ with faith.

 

[civic]

According to Paul, the Gospel of Christ is the Law and Prophets that HE said he believed all that was written in. That Jesus showed His Disciples all that was written about Him.

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein (Within the Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faithSee Hebrews 11) as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it (Gospel of Christ) unto them.

Heb. 4: 2 For "unto us" was the gospel preached, "as well as unto them": but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith (Belief) in them that heard it.

There is no true Gospel of Christ without the Law and Prophets.

Luke 24: 25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures "the things concerning himself".

The New Testament wasn't even written yet, Paul was still persecuting the "Church of God".

And Zacharias, Simeon, and Anna all knew and believed in the Gospel of Christ, as it is written.

Luke 2: 36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; 37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day. 38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him "to all them that looked for redemption" in Jerusalem.

Clearly Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise Men all mixed the hearing of the Gospel of Christ with faith.

Posts 19-22 in this thread correct all your errors concerning the gospel

 

[Studyman]

The FREE nature of God's pardon was explained by Jesus in one of the most beautiful parables, found in Matthew 18:21-35.
Please notice that the passage should get priority in our understanding of the topic because...

• It was given by Jesus Himself, not by a disciple interpreting the teaching of Jesus
• was explicitly addressing the topic in question

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”​

22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.​

Luke's version of this teaching goes like this.

Luke 17: 3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. 4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Jesus also says;

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

And Paul teaches:

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent "and turn to God", and do works meet for repentance.

In your understanding, how important is true repentance towards God in receiving forgiveness?

I imagine a man that steals from other people, and God prepares to put him to death, and the thief says, I repent, I will go and steal no more. And God lets him live, but two days later he steals again, and God catches him, and he cries unto God, I repent, I will not steal again. And God relents. But this man continues to steal when he thinks God isn't looking. Will there not come a time when God knows, by his works, that he isn't sorry or repentant at all? In your understanding, will God continue to forgive him his stealing or whichever commandment he believes unworthy of his respect, without true sorrow and repentance?