Johann
Well-known member
They are NOT saved and you choose to walk the broad road-read Pilgrims Progress.
J.
God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
J.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
How can you say they are not saved, if they experienced the peace and joy of forgiveness and changed their lives into honest men?
Can Belzebub throw out Belzebub?
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Forgiveness, in its most basic form, means salvation from the punishment deserved.
So, in its simplest form, if God forgives a person, God does not punish that person.
For example, if the king forgives the debt of his servant, the servant does not go to prison. Period.
In its deepest form, forgiveness implies the willingness to change. God forgives with the intention to give people a new kind of life.
For example, David did not only ask to be cleansed of his sin, but to be renewed in his heart.
So, it would be absurd to think that God forgave Antonio but didn’t save Antonio, inasmuch as it would absurd to think that God saved Antonio, but didn’t forgive him. The Bible does not present that absurd. That’s why forgiveness is presented in the Bible as inherent to “turning our ways”.
Please reflect on this: He’ll cannot be full of people whom God has forgiven. Heaven cannot be full of people whom God has not forgiven.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Your post has nothing to do with this conclusion. What you do is to degrade your ability to debate logically and to be taken seriously.
So, Be serious, get your ducks in a row and stop crying. You have such a great potential for debate, my brother. Use it !
If you don’t get serious in your next post, I will stop debating with you and that will be painful for me, as I like you so much.
This is the only warning you’ll get.
If Allah were demonic, He would inspire me to do demonic works. Isn’t it true?
But since He is God, He inspires me to do divine works.
I worship Allah and Allah sees through my eyes and works through my hands. He is my Light. I am his lamp.
You didn't mention an Option C: Continue to expose the heresy that incorporating false faiths with the one true faith is akin to drinking from the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. We cannot mix the faiths of Gentiles with the faith given to us through Jesus Christ by God Himself.
One cannot say I am a Muslim Christian; this is no different from claiming I am a Satanist Christian.
There is only one faith that God has given and He revealed it through the Jewish people. The rest of the Gentile faiths of the world are not from God, but are doctrines of demons.
"In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe." (Heb 1:1-2)
Anyone who is "genuinely" saved first hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, repents-has a change of mind about their current faith and lifestyle, and calls out to the Lord in faith to save them.
They are no longer Muslim-followers of Muhammad any more. They are followers of Jesus Christ and Him alone. They forsake their former life and cling to a new life joined with God. And this new life is of God's Spirit. It is not a system of good works.
Good works will save no man. But faith in Jesus Christ, being born again from above by the Holy Spirit, and living a godly life because of God working within one's heart and mind will not only save a man, but glorify God as He is the cause of the person's transformation of life.
This person in no way will incorporate other faiths into their life, but expose them by preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, "teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you."
(Tit 2:12-15)
And going back to your Grupeet, Dwight and Antonio example, if they prayed to an AI generated Jesus they did not pray to the real Jesus who is in Heaven sight unseen. They must hear the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, which is He is the only Lord not one of many, that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one comes to the Father except by Him, and they believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths He is Lord; this will save them. Anything else is nothing more than religious transformation from man and not spiritual transformation by the Holy Spirit living within them.
One must walk away from all other faiths and believe in the one true faith that God has revealed through His Jewish Son. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Eph 4:4-6)
God Bless
Johann
Well-known member
2 Corinthians 11:14
"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light."
No one comes to the Father unless they are drawn:
John 6:44
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
J.
civic
Well-known member
Correct
Johann
Well-known member
. Mr. Worldly Wiseman (Part 1)
Mr. Worldly Wiseman represents a type of false believer, someone who relies on worldly wisdom and human solutions rather than trusting in God's salvation. He tries to persuade Christian to abandon his pilgrimage to the Celestial City by offering an easier way through the village of Morality and the help of a man named Legality.
Mr. Worldly Wiseman's Advice: “There is no need to go so far to seek relief. You are burdened because of your sin, but if you go to the town of Morality, you will find a better way to get rid of your burden. Legality, the man who lives there, will show you how to be free from your load.”
This represents a false believer’s tendency to rely on human effort or moralism rather than on faith in Christ for salvation.
2. The Slough of Despond
This is a place where Christian initially struggles. While it's not a character, the Slough of Despond can be understood allegorically as representing the struggles and confusion that false believers may experience. They often wrestle with guilt and despair but never truly escape the weight of their sins because they don't trust in God's grace.
3. Formalist and Hypocrisy (Part 1)
Formalist and Hypocrisy are two characters who attempt to follow the pilgrimage without genuine faith. They enter the narrow way without truly understanding its demands, and they fail to acknowledge the necessity of a transformed life through Christ. They try to climb over the wall of salvation without entering by the door (representing Christ).
Formalist and Hypocrisy's Journey: “They also went to the house where Christian was staying, but when they were asked how they came by the gate, they said they came by the way of the law, climbing over the wall.”
These characters represent people who rely on external religion, outward conformity, or legalism, rather than a true relationship with Christ.
4. The Man in the Iron Cage (Part 2)
In The Pilgrim’s Progress, the "Man in the Iron Cage" is a terrifying example of a false believer, someone who once had a profession of faith but has fallen into despair and hopelessness. This man, whose name is never given, is confined in a cage because he turned away from the truth and is now permanently imprisoned by his own sin and rejection of God’s mercy.
The Man in the Iron Cage: “This man was once a profession of the faith, but now he stands in a cage, unable to escape, his soul so hardened and his heart so filled with sin that he can no longer find a way to repent.”
This figure symbolizes someone who may have initially started well in their faith journey but, through sin, neglect, or deliberate rejection of the truth, ends in spiritual despair and destruction.
5. Apostate - By-ends (Part 2)
By-ends is a character in Part 2 who represents those who are false believers in the sense that they follow Christ for what they can gain, rather than out of genuine faith. His belief is conditional, based on the benefits he can receive rather than a true commitment to Christ. He is always looking for the easiest and most comfortable way to pursue his goals, even if it means compromising his faith.
By-ends' Belief: “He would follow Christ as long as it suited his desires. He went wherever it was convenient and would only endure hardships if it was necessary for his gain.”
By-ends exemplifies the false believer who seeks the reward of faith but avoids the cost of discipleship. He wants to enjoy the benefits of the Christian walk without bearing the sacrifices that come with it.
Throughout The Pilgrim's Progress, Bunyan illustrates false believers as those who either rely on their own wisdom, moral effort, or self-deception to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, without true faith in Christ. These characters serve as warnings to readers about the dangers of relying on anything other than a genuine, heartfelt trust in Jesus for salvation.
Your three effeminate men can clean up their act and still be in a slough of despondency @Pancho Frijoles.
Bunyan answered your question.
J.
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Hello Pancho,
If one is Muslim and confesses with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believes in his heart that God raised Him from the dead, he would be saved. And he would no longer be Muslim, a follower of Muhammad, but a follower the the Lord Jesus Christ...This is what I agree to.
King David already believed in the true Living God. He didn't need to discover God, he knew Him! The Jewish people were the only ones of whom God revealed Himself. Not only did King David know God, he knew Him from His youth.
I don't recall reading the evidences you presented.
But, I will repeat, "Anyone who is "genuinely" saved first hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, repents-has a change of mind about their current faith and lifestyle, and calls out to the Lord in faith to save them."
They are no longer followers of who or what they used to believe any more. They are followers of Jesus Christ and Him alone. They forsake their former life and cling to a new life joined with God. And this new life is of God's Spirit. It is not a system of good works.
Then their repentance means nothing. They must repent of unbelief, confess with their mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead.
You're asking me if God is pleased by someone who has not yet received Jesus Christ. And the answer is absolutely no, He is not pleased by anyone who lives according to the flesh. "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Rom 8:7-8)
You don't seem to understand, by default everyone of us stands condemned until we come to God through faith in His one and only Son, Jesus Christ. And then, God is pleased.
If the Sikh hears the Gospel of Jesus Christ, repents-has a change of mind about their current faith and lifestyle, and calls out to the Lord in faith to save them, then God will forgive him and give him the Spirit of adoption, whereby he will call out Father.
They are no longer Sikh-followers of gurus any more. They are followers of Jesus Christ and Him alone. They forsake their former life and cling to a new life joined with God. And this new life is of God's Spirit. It is not a system of good works."
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus." (Rom 3:23-26)
I have seen so many people reform their life for the better and never confess Jesus Christ as Lord. People better their lives all the time, but that doesn't merit them forgiveness of sins and eternal life does it? No!
The one responsible for the betterment of their life in your question is the person. They decided to do better and so they do. And that does not merit salvation or anything with God. Only by faith in God, not a guru, a false prophet, or any other doctrine of demons, nor good works will God honor. One must believe His Son! Period.
Ok, understood. I jumped in the thread without reading all the posts.
We know it is God's grace that we are accepted, but that grace is only found in the giving of His Son for the forgiveness of our sins that 100% must be received by faith. We cannot improve ourselves and think God is impressed...Not the case.
Neither, it was them that renewed-changed their life after retrospect. They are still dead in their sins.
Question: Why do you advocate many ways to God and how a man can be saved?
Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."
And He also said, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
Please read, "But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?" (Rom 10:8-14)
God Bless
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Huh? Salvation is the gift of eternal life instead of the death that we deserve.
One does not receive eternal life because he confesses that he stole 1000 USD. One receives salvation (eternal life) only when he confesses and believes in Christ.
Actually, it would be absurd for God to give Antonio eternal life based only on his confession of 1000 stolen USD.
Please reflect on this because your thinking makes a mockery of the fact that Christ is the sole Mediator between man and God.
I am debating the topic as evidenced by my last post to you.
Again, Salvation is arrived at only through the Cross, Resurrection, and Pentecost.
This leads me straight into the fact that Baha'u'llah's attempt to usurp the 2nd coming of Christ and the Paraclete is a blasphemous disservice to God.
If you wish to run away from this fact that would be typical behavior of an anti-Christian.
If the Jew-hating violence-promoting Quranic verses are divine in your view then so are the Jew-hating violence-promoting sentences from Mein Kampf.If Allah were demonic, He would inspire me to do demonic works. Isn’t it true?
But since He is God, He inspires me to do divine works.
I worship Allah and Allah sees through my eyes and works through my hands. He is my Light. I am his lamp.
That is a good insight, figuratively speaking. The change they experience is not real with God even if they feel better (which we will assume for the same of argument). I propose it is God through Christ where change of heart is even promised. By comparison, the Buddhism experience seems focused on how to live in pain and manage that pain in one's life. It is a denial of reality while also focused on pain. Hinduism was apparently modified to make people happy in the caste they were given and then make the higher caste's a reflection of a superior soul. The multitude of religious groups do not reflect the true God who comes down to humanity to reconcile them with the true God.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Dear @synergy
The scenario is not about mere confession.
A criminal can confess his crime only to avoid prison, without having repented.
The scenario presented is about true repentance, which includes pain, restitution of what was stolen, confession, and sincere willingness to be converted into an honest man. The scenario includes the transformation of those people into honest men.
What you are doing, as many do when presented this scenario, is to deny reality. I urge our brother @Joe to avoid the same mistake.
Since you can't explain why people from all religions can repent sincerely from having stolen 1000 USD (which includes pain, confession, restitution and willingness to change) and since you can't explain why people from all religions can get changed by God into honest men, your only resource is to create a straw man fallacy: that the scenario claims that confession is sufficient.
Jesus was accused by his enemies to cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub. Jesus replied that Beelzebub cannot cast Beelzebub... that such thing would be a blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Jesus also taught, @Joe, that the good tree CANNOT (CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT) bear bad fruit, and that the bad tree CANNOT (CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT) bear good fruit.
Those people who believe that Satan is able to transform dishonest men into honest men do not know what they are talking about. They are denying the explicit teaching of Jesus in the Bible.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
I don't run away of any fact, since what you are presenting are not facts.
So, my behavior is not anti-Christian.
Please reflect on whether your own behavior reflects the character of Christ or not.
In the mean time, I wish you all the blessings from God through Christ to your life and that of your family.
Since I cannot proceed to have a proper discussion with you, I prefer to silence your posts.
So I will click on the "Ignore" function.
Pancho Frijoles
Well-known member
Hi Joe
It is a pleasure to debate with you, as you show respect and intellectual honesty.
The evidences I presented are summarized in this set of 30 passages which I call the "Core Block". There are more, but these 30 are the ones to start with.
- 1 Kings 8:22-53 Prayer of Solomon while dedicating the Temple. Even when animal sacrifices would be the center of Temple's ritual, Solomon makes no reference whatsoever of blood atonement as the condition to be forgiven. And certainly, No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Isaiah 6:6 God forgives Isaiah without any mentioning of a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically. Furthermore, God uses a symbol that has nothing to do with blood.
- Isaiah 55:7 God forgives the person who turns to Him and abandons the bad ways. No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Jeremiah 36:3 God forgives people if they turn from their evil ways. No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Daniel 4:19 Daniel prays to God recognizing the sin of his people and ask Him to forgive them. No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah ("the Son of Man") who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Psalm 32:1-5. Confession and sorrow are enough to expect God's mercy. No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Psalm 51. The most extensive and specific display of repentance present in the Bible. Full trust in God's power to cleanse sins and renew the heart. No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Psalm 103:1-3 Confidence in God's mercy. No mentioning of the need to believe in a future Messiah who would be God, pay debts and resurrect physically.
- Mathew 5:7 Jesus teaches that those who are merciful will obtain mercy. No mentioning of rituals, creeds or blood atonement.
- Matthew 6:9-14. The Lord's Prayer. We ask the Father to forgive our debts as we do with our debtors. No rituals, doctrinal confessions or substitutionary atonements required. As a corollary, Jesus states that if we show mercy to others, God will show mercy to us.
- Matthew 9:13 (repeated in 12:7). Jesus reinforces what has been told in the Tanakh: that sacrifices do not satisfy God, but our attitude of mercy to others.
- Matthew 9:27 (an again in 20:31-34). Two blind men ask Jesus for mercy. He extends that mercy out of compassion, without demanding a belief in his deity, blood atonement or future physical resurrection.
- Matthew 15:22 A woman of Canaan asks Jesus for mercy. Even when she does not share the religion of Israel, Jesus does not demand this from her as a condition to extend his mercy.
- Matthew 18:21-35. The king's mercy to his servant is for free. No substitutionary payment required. No confessions on theological beliefs required. The King just expects his servant to extend as well free mercy on others.
- Mark 10:46-52. Bartimeus ask Jesus for mercy. He extends that mercy and heals him from blindness praising his faith. His faith, though, didn't include any declaration whatsoever of Jesus deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection.
- Luke 1:50 God's mercy is for those who fear Him. God-fearing (righteousness) but no mention of a belief in Jesus deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection.
- Luke 15:11-31 The Father accepts his son based on his repentance. No demand to pay a debt. The good brother does not offer to pay any debt. No substitutionary atonement at all.
- Luke 16:23-25. The rich in torment asks Father Abraham for mercy. Such mercy is denied, not on the basis of any doctrinal error, but on the basis of an evil behavior.
- Luke 18:9-14 The tax collector gets justified based on his humble repentance. No reference whatsoever to a substitutionary payment of a debt, or the need to believe in Jesus deity or physical resurrection.
- Luke 23:33-34. Jesus intercedes for those who do not believe in his deity, substitutionary atonement or physical resurrection
@Pancho Frijoles
I confess this to be my true belief from my heart about the human being known as Jesus Christ. It is not all that I believe, but enough for now.
Jesus Christ is God as a human, the Son of Man paying the ransom price for mankind's release from sin, death, and the grave. And as God, He victoriously raises from death freeing us from its grip, as He told the Jews who would kill Him, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". He is the Savior of the world! And no one can come to the Father except through Him.
Now I kindly request, please quote the parts of my confessional that you do not believe and why.
God Bless
I confess this to be my true belief from my heart about the human being known as Jesus Christ. It is not all that I believe, but enough for now.
- He is God's Son that preexisted with Him in His glory. (Jn 17:5; Jn 8:42)
- He humbled Himself from being in the form of God and became Human. (Php 2:5-7; Luke 1:30-35)
- The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. (Jn 1:14)
- He is called the Word because the Father lives within Him and expresses Himself through Him. (Jn 14:7-11)
- He is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Heb 1:3)
- He was in the beginning with God and was God. (Jn 1:1-2)
- All things were made through Him and not one thing in all creation was made without Him. (Jn 1:3)
- He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. (Jn 1:10)
- He is the Creator and Sustainer of all creation. (Col 1:15-17; Heb 1:3)
- He is God's Son and through Him God made the worlds. (Heb 1:2)
- He is the I AM, the God of the Jewish people. (Exo 3:13-15; Jn 8:56-59)
- He is God Almighty. (Isa 9:6; Col 2:9-10; Rev 1:8, Rev 15:3, Rev 17:14; Rev 19:16)
- He is the Alpha and Omega - The beginning and the end; from everlasting to everlasting. (Psalms 90:2; Isa 44:6; Rev 22:16)
- He is equal to His Father. (Jn 5:18)
- He is the Man from Heaven. (Jn 3:13; Jn 6:38; 1 Cor 15:47)
- He is the Great God and Savior. (Isa 43:10-11; Isa 45:21; Isa 60:16; Luke 2:11; Jn 4:42; Titus 2:13)
- He is our Redeemer (Isa 44:6; Isa 44:24; Isa 59:20; Acts 20:28; Gal 4:5; Titus 2:14)
Jesus Christ is God as a human, the Son of Man paying the ransom price for mankind's release from sin, death, and the grave. And as God, He victoriously raises from death freeing us from its grip, as He told the Jews who would kill Him, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up". He is the Savior of the world! And no one can come to the Father except through Him.
Now I kindly request, please quote the parts of my confessional that you do not believe and why.
God Bless
Amen! All glory to our God!
