God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

[civic]

I get that you have your religious philosophy and can quote some scriptures and use your knowledge in the Greek and Hebrew language to defend and promote it. You used the same tactic to prove the Catholic sabbath is the Sabbath of God. No doubt you can use the same tactic to prove God's Judgments and statutes are no longer relevant. And this world's manmade high days, no doubt you can use Scriptures to justify them as well, along with the tradition of this world to reject and ignore God's Feasts. But I can read the sermons of a Messianic Jew, whose knowledge of Greek and Hebrew in certainly not inferior to you, promote a completely different philosophy. Or the theologians of the SDA who use the exact same method to justify their religious philosophies, or the JW's who also employ the same exact tactic, from the Same Holy Bible to prove and support their religious doctrines and philosophies you openly call a false teaching, along with the Mormons and other religious businesses and sects as well.

For me, a nobody simply seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, this shows me that clearly just because a promoter of one of this world's "many" religious sects and businesses believe in a philosophy, or a tradition, or a judgment, and quote some of God's Word, doesn't mean it is the Truth of God.

Even the bible teaches this. Anna was a simple poor widow woman who simply heard and believed Moses being read on the Sabbath Days of God in the Temple, and she knew Jesus as an 8 day old baby. While the great theologians, whose knowledge in Greek and Hebrew would dwarf yours if you were to be honest, knew of and heard Jesus teach face to face for years, and couldn't see the Spirit of God that was in Him. The same for Zacharias, a minor priest in the Temple whose job was to burn incense. But because he believed God and obeyed Him, He knew more about Jesus before HE was even born, than all the great theologians and doctors of the Law with greater knowledge, and access to more complete Scriptures than you even have available to you. And likewise for Simeon.

And those "many" who called Jesus Lord, Lord that Jesus spoke of, who "Prophesied in His Name", did many wonderful works in His Name, even cast out devils in His Name. There is no doubt that they also used Scripture and their knowledge of Greek and Hebrew to defend, justify and promote their religious philosophies and traditions which caused them to "work iniquity", in fulfillment of their mission to convert others to their specific religious sect.

So for me, a nobody who you have already judged on this very forum, as being inferior to you in knowledge, the exact same judgment Jesus and His apostles received from the mainstream religious sects of their time. The exact same judgment I receive from the promoters of the religious sect of the JW's, along with the promotes of the religious sects of the SDA, Catholic, Methodist, Mormon, MJ's and the rest. For me it is clear there is more to "Knowing the One True God AND Jesus Christ, that HE sent", than adopting one of this world's popular religious businesses, and then adopting and defending "their" traditions and philosophies, and then working to grow their business by converting others to their religion.

It's not personal with me. I'm not singling you out or singling out the religious philosophy you have adopted and are now promoting. I just don't see any real difference between any of this world's religious businesses and sects from those of Jesus' Time. They all cause those who adopt them and their religious philosophies and traditions, to transgress the commandments, Judgments and Statutes of God. The only difference is, modern religions do so "In Jesus Name", as Jesus Himself Prophesied.

Christ is our Lord and Savior, our God and Savior.

Dismantling the fallacious argument of the unitarian.


2 Peter 1:1
τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

2 Peter 1:11
τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ σωτῆρος Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ


2 Peter 1:1
our God and Savior, Jesus Christ

2 Peter 1:11
our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ


We have a second person possessive pronoun "Our" modifying two different improper nouns (God and Savior) joined by "and" (Kia) to identify a proper noun (Jesus) [Granville/Sharp's]. Therefore, by basic grammar, we are identifying Jesus as God and Savior. This is 6th grade grammar we are talking about. We don't even have to know the Greek to see that Jesus is being called both God and Savior here.

But for those interested in the Greek here is the comparison of 1:1 and 1:11.


τοῦ is the same.

ἡμῶν is the same.

καὶ is the same.

Σωτῆρος is the same.

Ἰησοῦ is the same.

Χριστοῦ· is the same.

And all in the same order.

The only difference is the noun "Θεοῦ" in v.1, while "Κυρίου" is in v.11.

So if he wants to deny that Jesus is "God" ("theou") in v.1, then he has to deny that Jesus is "Lord" ("kuriou") in v.11. Otherwise he's being inconsistent and dishonest with the text. To say otherwise is proof positive one has an agenda when reading scripture and using eisegesis rather than exegesis of the biblical text in question.

Peter refers to Christ as our God and Saviour- Lord and Saviour just the same as Paul in Titus 2:13 and it’s the same Greek construction in Titus 2:13 as it is in 2 Peter 1:1 and 1:11.

And the One who is coming / appearing in the NT is always the Son and NEVER the Father.


But even if the Granville Sharp Rule is not a valid rule of Greek grammar, or if it is, but 2 Peter 1:1 is not an example of it, there is substantial contextual evidence that both "God" and "Savior" modify Jesus Christ. First, there are three examples of a similar phrase in 2 Peter in which it is clear that one person is in view: namely, "our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ" (1:11; 2:20; 3:18). The Greek of this phrase is identical to the Greek of "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ," with the exception of Lord/God (kuriou/theou). In 3:2, we find "the Lord and Savior," again signifying one person. It would seem inconceivable that Peter would intend two persons in one case and one person in all the others, when employing the same (or nearly the same, in the case of 3:2) Greek construction every time.

Further, Peter uses the phrase "our God and Father" in 1 Peter 1:3 (Greek: ho theos kai patêr). Again, one person, not two are in view. The differences between this phrase and those in 2 Peter are a matter of case (ho theos is nominative, whereas tou theou is genitive) and the pronoun "our" (Greek: hêmôn), neither of which is significant in determining the intended referent.

conclusion: filled with Scripture- the One Coming is the Son, not the Father therefor dismantling the unitarian false teaching of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1


epiphanea

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Timothy 6:14
14 that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Timothy 1:10
10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus,

2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

2 Timothy 4:8
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Titus 2:13
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Titus 2:13
Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ ‎tou ‎‎megalou ‎‎Theou ‎‎kai ‎‎sooteeros ‎‎Ieesou ‎‎Christou‎. This is the necessary meaning of the one article with ‎Theou ‎and ‎sooteeros ‎just as in 2 Peter 1:1,11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read ‎Christou ‎‎Ieesou‎.

(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997, 2003, 2005, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright © 1985 by Broadman Press.)

Parousia

Matthew 24:3
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:27
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Matthew 24:39
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 2:19
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 3:13
13 To the end he may establish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming

James 5:7
7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.

James 5:8
8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

2 Peter 1:16
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

2 Peter 3:4
4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

1 John 2:28-29
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

And 2 Thessalonians 2:8 links both His appearing / coming as the same event of Christ not the Father. Both epiphenea and parousia together below in the same verse.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

1 Peter 1:7
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Case closed for the Unitarian camp !

This is where Unitarians really fail badly because they are so consumed with disproving the Deity of Christ that they fail with a well rounded theology which would benefit them greatly . You see how all biblical doctrines fit together seamlessly and especially in this case prove beyond all doubt that the one and only Person Paul was referring to in Titus 2:13 as God was Jesus and not the Father for He is never once in Scripture referred to as the One who is Coming/ Appearing .


hope this helps !!!

 

[101G]

in Summary of the essential doctrine of the Resurrection - the gospel of our salvation

We must remember Paul defines the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-8 then spends the entire rest of the chapter focusing on the centerpiece of the gospel, the resurrection of Christ. Below are the reasons why in my humble estimation. It’s His Resurrection from the dead that is life giving , that conquered sin, death and the devil.

We must go back to the gospel and what the scriptures teach about the good news of Jesus death, burial and resurrection as defined in 1 Corinthians 15.

1 Corinthians 15:17- And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

First let's address this statement, which support your conclusions, and confirm the Godspell message. 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 which address the NEW MAN.... without blood. for indeed if he rose with "BLOOD", there would not be any new covenant and out faith will be futile. supportive scripture. Hebrews 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator." Hebrews 9:17 "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."
knowing this, the LIFE of the Flesh is in the BLOOD, (per Leviticus 17:11), and now that his flesh is changed and is risen and Lisveth by the Spirit the covenant of LIFE exists and in strength.
which confirms the scriptures you posted.

conclusion: don't let anyone try and fool you about this ESSENTIAL/CORE/SALVIFIC DOCTRINE - the Bodily Resurrection of Jesus the foundation of the gospel message that was preached by the Apostles. No Resurrection, no salvation. Those who deny it have another gospel, another jesus as per Paul in Galatians 1 and 1 Cor 15.

Correct.

10-1G.

 

[civic]

First let's address this statement, which support your conclusions, and confirm the Godspell message. 1 Corinthians 15:1-8 which address the NEW MAN.... without blood. for indeed if he rose with "BLOOD", there would not be any new covenant and out faith will be futile. supportive scripture. Hebrews 9:16 "For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator." Hebrews 9:17 "For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."
knowing this, the LIFE of the Flesh is in the BLOOD, (per Leviticus 17:11), and now that his flesh is changed and is risen and Lisveth by the Spirit the covenant of LIFE exists and in strength.
which confirms the scriptures you posted.

Correct.

10-1G.

Thanks for affirming the gospel truth the Resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Studyman]

ERROR, Jesus was not born, his body was.

I know this is what the Catholic religion and her Protestant daughters preach. But the Jesus "of the bible" Himself said HE came to do HIS Father's will, not His Own. This could only be possible if Jesus was born with His Own Will to deny. This means the Will of the Man Jesus, was not the same as the Will of God, which is true for all men. Which is why Jesus had to learn obedience through the things HE suffered and is also why God's grace was upon Him.

But these Truths spoken of Him in scriptures, must be ignored in order to defend and promote the image of God they have created, in the likeness of man. My hope is that you might consider these things.

my God do you read? he was in a ECHAD of First and Last... Understand?

There is no doubt that God gave Jesus His Eternal Spirit when HE was anointed by JTB. Why? Because HE Loved Righteousness and Hated Evil. Glory be to God and HIS Son who HE gave immortality to, and a place at HIS Right Hand.no, he was sent from God and not sent by God.... listen,

John 1:6 "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John." did not the Lord Jesus came ..... FROM ... God?

I can see a possible distinction. He was sent "By God" as a sucking babe who grew in wisdom and understanding. The Spirit God gave Him to begin HIS Ministry, was "From God" no doubt. As it is written;

2 Pet. 1: 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received "from God the Father" honour and glory, "when" "there came such a voice" "to him" from the "excellent glory", This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven "we heard", when we were with him in the holy mount.

When did Jesus "Love Righteousness and hate evil"? Was it not before John Anointed Him?

and the Lord Jesus came from God also. John 3:31 "He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all." John 13:3 "Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;" John 8:23 "And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."

101G

Did Jesus Walk in the Flesh, or in the Spirit? If He walked in the Flesh, then HE is not "From Above" is HE, He would be from below. But if HE walked in the Spirit, He would not be from below, but from above.

John 13: 1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

3 "Jesus knowing" that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

He knew and believed that HE was truly the Prophesied High Priest of God, the Messiah spoken of by Moses and the Prophets in the Law. Surely HE was sent From God, and HE believed all the was written of Him, and that HE would also return to God and become God's Cherished "Scepter".

Ps. 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the "sceptre" (Rod, staff, tribe, scepter) of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, "thy God", hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear readers

I will go once again reviewing the verses that @civic has kindly provided.
I remind you all that there are at least 21 passages in Scriptures, which address directly the subject of forgiveness, including those pronunced by Jesus Himself, that present God's mercy as given FOR FREE, without demanding the sinner, as a condition to be forgiven and transformed, a belief in Jesus' deity, substitutionary blood atonement or physical resurrection.

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Christ blood is a sign, a signature of the new covenant, which is spiritual covenant, based on the embedding of God's laws on the heart.
Thinking that the blood of Christ was an effective and literal currency paid to God in exchange for his mercy reflects a deep misunderstanding of any symbol, including water, fire, light, bread, wind, heaven, hell, life, death, etc.
Such thinking would bring Christianism back to the most primitive ways of worshiping, which are not what Jesus presented to the Samaritan woman as the kind of worship God was seeking.

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

The same author of Hebrews 9:22 states few verses later that such blood had NO POWER to forgive sins.
"For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins". (Hebrews 10:4)
If it had no power to forgive sins, and Moses did not demand people to believe in the future atonement of a future Messiah as a condition to be forgiven... how did the Israelites were forgiven?

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them
Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.
Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

All symbolic. Such blood had NO POWER to perform any atonement. "For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins". (Hebrews 10:4) That's why no prophet ever urged Hebrews to build hundreds or thousands of tabernacles in each village, even when people sin every day and cannot travel to Jerusalem every day.

A Walk through Hebrews

The author of Hebrews made his audience understand that the NEW SYMBOL was replacing the OLD SYMBOL.

• The old symbol was the sacrifice of animals and the Levitic priesthood.
• The new symbol is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the priesthood of Jesus Christ, which is also our own spiritual sacrifice and our own priesthood, as God teaches through Paul.

In both cases, symbols are symbols. We respect them and honor them, but we don't demand Sikhs to believe that symbols are what they are not.

Conclusion: The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin.

That's true. I agree with that 100%. It is his life, which He gave as a sacrifice for sin.
It is His life that we have to make our life, so that the old man gets crucified with Christ and we are resurrected and ascended with Christ.

 

[civic]

Dear readers

I will go once again reviewing the verses that @civic has kindly provided.
I remind you all that there are at least 21 passages in Scriptures, which address directly the subject of forgiveness, including those pronunced by Jesus Himself, that present God's mercy as given FOR FREE, without demanding the sinner, as a condition to be forgiven and transformed, a belief in Jesus' deity, substitutionary blood atonement or physical resurrection.

Christ blood is a sign, a signature of the new covenant, which is spiritual covenant, based on the embedding of God's laws on the heart.
Thinking that the blood of Christ was an effective and literal currency paid to God in exchange for his mercy reflects a deep misunderstanding of any symbol, including water, fire, light, bread, wind, heaven, hell, life, death, etc.
Such thinking would bring Christianism back to the most primitive ways of worshiping, which are not what Jesus presented to the Samaritan woman as the kind of worship God was seeking.


The same author of Hebrews 9:22 states few verses later that such blood had NO POWER to forgive sins.
"For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins". (Hebrews 10:4)
If it had no power to forgive sins, and Moses did not demand people to believe in the future atonement of a future Messiah as a condition to be forgiven... how did the Israelites were forgiven?

All symbolic. Such blood had NO POWER to perform any atonement. "For it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins". (Hebrews 10:4) That's why no prophet ever urged Hebrews to build hundreds or thousands of tabernacles in each village, even when people sin every day and cannot travel to Jerusalem every day.


The author of Hebrews made his audience understand that the NEW SYMBOL was replacing the OLD SYMBOL.

• The old symbol was the sacrifice of animals and the Levitic priesthood.
• The new symbol is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the priesthood of Jesus Christ, which is also our own spiritual sacrifice and our own priesthood, as God teaches through Paul.

In both cases, symbols are symbols. We respect them and honor them, but we don't demand Sikhs to believe that symbols are what they are not.


That's true. I agree with that 100%. It is his life, which He gave as a sacrifice for sin.
It is His life that we have to make our life, so that the old man gets crucified with Christ and we are resurrected and ascended with Christ.

Christs blood was real, physical blood- the life of the soul resided in the blood. Bible 101.

No blood=no atonement for sins which is taught in both old and new testaments.

There is both a literal and spiritual meaning represented by the blood. You are denying its real and physical meaning.

 

[civic]

I know this is what the Catholic religion and her Protestant daughters preach. But the Jesus "of the bible" Himself said HE came to do HIS Father's will, not His Own. This could only be possible if Jesus was born with His Own Will to deny. This means the Will of the Man Jesus, was not the same as the Will of God, which is true for all men. Which is why Jesus had to learn obedience through the things HE suffered and is also why God's grace was upon Him.

But these Truths spoken of Him in scriptures, must be ignored in order to defend and promote the image of God they have created, in the likeness of man. My hope is that you might consider these things.




There is no doubt that God gave Jesus His Eternal Spirit when HE was anointed by JTB. Why? Because HE Loved Righteousness and Hated Evil. Glory be to God and HIS Son who HE gave immortality to, and a place at HIS Right Hand.no, he was sent from God and not sent by God.... listen,



I can see a possible distinction. He was sent "By God" as a sucking babe who grew in wisdom and understanding. The Spirit God gave Him to begin HIS Ministry, was "From God" no doubt. As it is written;

2 Pet. 1: 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received "from God the Father" honour and glory, "when" "there came such a voice" "to him" from the "excellent glory", This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven "we heard", when we were with him in the holy mount.

When did Jesus "Love Righteousness and hate evil"? Was it not before John Anointed Him?




Did Jesus Walk in the Flesh, or in the Spirit? If He walked in the Flesh, then HE is not "From Above" is HE, He would be from below. But if HE walked in the Spirit, He would not be from below, but from above.

John 13: 1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

3 "Jesus knowing" that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;

He knew and believed that HE was truly the Prophesied High Priest of God, the Messiah spoken of by Moses and the Prophets in the Law. Surely HE was sent From God, and HE believed all the was written of Him, and that HE would also return to God and become God's Cherished "Scepter".

Ps. 45: 6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the "sceptre" (Rod, staff, tribe, scepter) of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. 7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore (Because of this) God, "thy God", hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.

this is the pharisees understanding which He condemned.

 

[101G]

I know this is what the Catholic religion and her Protestant daughters preach. But the Jesus "of the bible" Himself said HE came to do HIS Father's will, not His Own. This could only be possible if Jesus was born with His Own Will to deny. This means the Will of the Man Jesus, was not the same as the Will of God, which is true for all men. Which is why Jesus had to learn obedience through the things HE suffered and is also why God's grace was upon Him.

But these Truths spoken of Him in scriptures, must be ignored in order to defend and promote the image of God they have created, in the likeness of man. My hope is that you might consider these things.

if you don't mind, let 101G make it clear. Listen carefully. Jesus the Christ did not CREATE ALL THINGS, but JESUS did. do you agree with that, yes or no?

looking to hear from you.

101G.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

His death atoned for sin but does not give life.

Please notice the profound inconsistency of this.
Imagine for a moment God saying: "I forgive you, my son, but I will send you to eternal torment anyway"

Isn't it insane to imagine a hell full of people who God has forgiven, or a heaven full of people who God has not forgiven?

Forgiveness is followed by a new life. It is totally artificial to separate one thing from the next.
If the old man is crucified, the new man is born... and all of this is a spiritual crucifixion and a spiritual resurrection, resulting from following Jesus teachings (words).

"It is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life". (John 6:63)

 

[civic]

Please notice the profound inconsistency of this.
Imagine for a moment God saying: "I forgive you, my son, but I will send you to eternal torment anyway"

Isn't it insane to imagine a hell full of people who God has forgiven, or a heaven full of people who God has not forgiven?

Forgiveness is followed by a new life. It is totally artificial to separate one thing from the next.
If the old man is crucified, the new man is born... and all of this is a spiritual crucifixion and a spiritual resurrection, resulting from following Jesus teachings (words).

"It is the Spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life". (John 6:63)

no one is forgiven without Jesus blood atonement. its the basis for the New Covenant by His blood.

Believe Gods word below and not what you have been taught. Gods word is the truth.

Romans 3:4- Let God be true and everyman found to be a liar.

1 John 5:10
Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

Matthew 26:26-29
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Hebrews 9:22
Because all things are purged by blood in The Written Law, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 4:20,26,35
And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them

Leviticus 6:7
And the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD: and it shall be forgiven him for any thing of all that he hath done in trespassing therein.

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for your souls upon the altar; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9
Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand and the table with its consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5 Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover. But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still functioning. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

The Blood of Christ​

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here,[a] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[b] eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God! 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16 In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19 When Moses had proclaimed every command of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.”[e] 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[b]

17 Then he adds:

“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”

18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

Hebrews 12
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Hebrews 13
The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

conclusion: the words above are eternal.
Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Christs blood was real, physical blood- the life of the soul resided in the blood. Bible 101.

Yes, it was physical blood.

No blood=no atonement for sins which is taught in both old and new testaments.

No. I already have presented abundant scriptural evidence that God forgives without blood. I can quote again all passages. No problem.

There is both a literal and spiritual meaning represented by the blood. You are denying its real and physical meaning.

Literal, physical blood is a tissue made of cells, water, and thousands of molecules diluted in such water. It serves to provide oxygen and nutrients, and also to collect the output of metabolism that we need to get rid of. It serves to provide immunity and many other functions. We can read about it in a book of Biology.

Such literal, physical blood of Jesus disappeared 2000 years ago. So we have no access to it.

Therefore, the blood we profit from must be spiritual in meaning.

NOTE: You have also used the word "real" that I have tried to avoid. Please consider that the meaning of symbols are real. They are not fantasies. The transformation of a soul from violent to loving is not a fantasy. It is very real. Salvation is real.

 

[Johann]

I get that you have your religious philosophy and can quote some scriptures and use your knowledge in the Greek and Hebrew language to defend and promote it. You used the same tactic to prove the Catholic sabbath is the Sabbath of God. No doubt you can use the same tactic to prove God's Judgments and statutes are no longer relevant. And this world's manmade high days, no doubt you can use Scriptures to justify them as well, along with the tradition of this world to reject and ignore God's Feasts. But I can read the sermons of a Messianic Jew, whose knowledge of Greek and Hebrew in certainly not inferior to you, promote a completely different philosophy. Or the theologians of the SDA who use the exact same method to justify their religious philosophies, or the JW's who also employ the same exact tactic, from the Same Holy Bible to prove and support their religious doctrines and philosophies you openly call a false teaching, along with the Mormons and other religious businesses and sects as well.

Refute my post-don't worry about me @Studyman.

J.

 

[civic]

Yes, it was physical blood.

No. I already have presented abundant scriptural evidence that God forgives without blood. I can quote again all passages. No problem.

Literal, physical blood is a tissue made of cells, water, and thousands of molecules diluted in such water. It serves to provide oxygen and nutrients, and also to collect the output of metabolism that we need to get rid of. It serves to provide immunity and many other functions. We can read about it in a book of Biology.

Such literal, physical blood of Jesus disappeared 2000 years ago. So we have no access to it.

Therefore, the blood we profit from must be spiritual in meaning.

NOTE: You have also used the word "real" that I have tried to avoid. Please consider that the meaning of symbols are real. They are not fantasies. The transformation of a soul from violent to loving is not a fantasy. It is very real. Salvation is real.

once again forgiveness is not salvation.

 

[civic]

Yes, it was physical blood.

No. I already have presented abundant scriptural evidence that God forgives without blood. I can quote again all passages. No problem.

Literal, physical blood is a tissue made of cells, water, and thousands of molecules diluted in such water. It serves to provide oxygen and nutrients, and also to collect the output of metabolism that we need to get rid of. It serves to provide immunity and many other functions. We can read about it in a book of Biology.

Such literal, physical blood of Jesus disappeared 2000 years ago. So we have no access to it.

Therefore, the blood we profit from must be spiritual in meaning.

NOTE: You have also used the word "real" that I have tried to avoid. Please consider that the meaning of symbols are real. They are not fantasies. The transformation of a soul from violent to loving is not a fantasy. It is very real. Salvation is real.

blood is both literal and symbolic.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

once again forgiveness is not salvation.

True repentance brings forgiveness AND birth into new life, which is a long-term process of transformation.
Those two phases are part of the same process.

We can't imagine hell full of people who God has forgiven, or heaven full of people who God has not forgiven.
Can you imagen that? Does the Bible teaches that?

Some days ago, @civic brought a list of categories of forgiveness.
That list made "divine forgiveness" and "salvific forgiveness" fall into two different categories.
That division is not biblical. It is not logical. It is artificial and false. It is a fantasy of confused theologians.

Divine forgiveness is always salvific.
Salvific forgiveness is always divine.

We can't imagine hell full of people who God has forgiven, or heaven full of people who God has not forgiven.

 

[civic]

True repentance brings forgiveness AND birth into new life, which is a long-term process of transformation.
Those two phases are part of the same process.

We can't imagine hell full of people who God has forgiven, or heaven full of people who God has not forgiven.
Can you imagen that? Does the Bible teaches that?

forgiveness of sins in salvation is tied directly to the gospel and believing its message.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

blood is both literal and symbolic.

Of course it is.
But for our salvation, blood is important only as a symbol, for the reason I stated in post 571

Literal, physical blood of Jesus disappeared 2000 years ago. We have no access to it.
Even if an angel had preserved in a freezer five thousand vials of 1 mL of his precious blood, we would get no cleansing of our sins by drinking it, spreading it on our skin or transfusing it into our system.

Since the literal blood of Jesus has disappeared, its value for us must be symbolic, and we must understand what it symbolizes.
You made a wonderful and true statement about the blood of Jesus symbolizing his life.
Why don't you stick to it?

To be forgiven, transformed, and therefore, SAVED, means to make Jesus life your own life. That is "drinking his blood" and "eating his flesh".

 

[praise_yeshua]

My friend, you are missing the point. Jesus was born a flesh and blood human. He was born with His own will, which he denied in order to do the will of His Father. Do you deny this?

Blaspheme........

The will of Jesus Christ was not contrary to God. You don't understand what you read................

 

[praise_yeshua]

forgiveness of sins in salvation is tied directly to the gospel and believing its message.

It is maddening to try to deal with someone that believes nothing. He is an theological "empty suit".

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;

2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.

Paul is not talking about a new physical body, but about a heavenly dwelling or clothing, which is the life in the presence of God.
I will transcribe this from the New International Version:

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Please note that

1. Our heavenly dwelling, our eternal house in heaven, already exists. Did Paul mean that we have already clones of our bodies somewhere?
2. Paul uses "tent" to refers to our temporary life of the flesh (nomadic people live in tents), while he uses "house" to refers to our permanent residence with God by his spirit (see Ephesians 2:19-122 below).
3. We are to be clothed not with a physical body, with our heavenly dwelling. The clothes given from God (His grace) covers our nakedness (our vulnerability, shame, guilt and fear). Please think in the Garden of Eden and the Fall.
4. In the resurrection, what is mortal is "swallowed up by life"... and Paul has taught that living under the rule of the flesh is death, while living under the rule spirit is life. So, Paul is not comparing two kind of physical bodies, but two kind of conditions or states.

In support of this view

• In Ephesians 2:19-22, Paul teaches that we are "built" together with Christ and become with Him a "dwelling". "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
• In Hebrews 3:6 the same concept is repeated. "But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory"
• In John 14:2, Jesus Himself uses the figure of a house with living in the presence of God: My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am (John 14:2)

CONCLUSION: In 2 Corinthians 5:1-5, Paul is not stressing the physicality of a resurrected body. He is stressing living with God as a heavenly dwelling, as solid and permanent as a house. He is making the contrast between that kind of life, the resurrected life, and the life of the flesh, which is as temporary as a nomadic tent.

I profoundly respect the belief in a physical resurrected body. But even if you are right and I am wrong, please do not demand from the Sikh (the one who repented from stealing 1000 USD and was changed into an honest man) believing as you believe as a condition to be forgiven and transformed.