God's grace to forgive and transform is not conditioned to recognizing Jesus' deity, blood atonement or physical resurrection

If they followed a false Christ, they wouldn't live the life of Christ. Would they?
But if their crime rate, divorce rate, suicide rate are similar to those of Evangelicals, you should at least start challenging your own views.
My mother was a JW for more than 10 years... so I can testify she was following the true Jesus, as some of her fellows, DESPITE being wrong in her understanding of some doctrines.

The first view you must challenges is that there are "salvific doctrines". Doctrines do NOT save anyone!
That's why God has never demanded from anyone to first pass a quiz on doctrinal knowledge in order to be healed or forgiven or saved.

All Jehovah Witnesses who live as Christ asked us to live are, by definition, disciples of the only and true Jesus.
Be careful with denying reality for the sake of Theology!

I would appreciate if you retracted your statement above, that involves my dear mother and many of her friends.

What reality are you living in where your desires become God's requirements?

Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Playing wounded is just another of your delusional tactics.
 
Actually, the symbol of the cross existed long before Israel became slaves in Egypt, and was popular in the pagan religions of the world which surrounded Jerusalem long before Jesus was even born. Along with the Goddess "Venus" and the Sun God that Constantine worshipped, and the Greek gods and symbols, etc.

In fact, the Greek word for cross is "stauros" which means a stake or pole, often used in ancient cultures to tie or nail a malefactor to for the purpose of punishment and torture. The "T" symbol, introduced into Christianity by Constantine era Priests, originated in Pagan worship, in exactly the same way as Sunday worship, Winter Solstice, pagan celebrations of the vernal equinox, and other ancient Pagan symbols and high days introduced into what we know as "Christianity", some 300 plus years after Jesus ascended to His Father and my Father.

These religious symbols and celebrations plagued Israel throughout their journey in that they adopted them into a religion they created in rebellion to God and His Way. Paul mentions this is 1 Cor. 10, as practices we should not lust after, as they did. The reference to the stake or pole on which Jesus was crucified, was used by the Apostles to represent the "flesh" which is crucified, replaced with a NEW Man that can no longer die, sin or suffer, as was the body Jesus was raised with.

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it "doth not yet appear what we shall be": but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

There are "many" who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ, who claim to know what this "Body" shall be. But Jesus and Paul warned not to be deceived by them.

In this matter, Pancho is right. There is no instruction, commandment or promise of God to give this New Life, that HE gave to His Son Jesus, only to those who partake of idolatry, ancient pagan symbolism, high days or observations promoted by the many differing religious businesses and sects of this world since before the Tower of Babel. This would include religoiuns who called Jesus Lord, Lord.

So to say the image of the ✝️ isn't or hasn't been an intragyral part of this world's religious sects and businesses long before Jesus was murdered, is foolishness and ignores history that can be easily examined by our own eyes.

I do find it fascinating that the most important symbols, high days, and judgments promoted by this world's religions, who come in Christ's Name, are never spoken of, practiced, observed or otherwise prophesied about, except to warn not to partake of them.

For me, I believe I can be saved by following the Christ's instruction, without following these religious practices, traditions and philosophies the religious sects of this world promote.

And this because of what is written about Him in the Holy Scriptures.
I was talking about the actual Cross, not just a symbol or image. You know, the Holy Cross that Jesus was crucified on or is that an abomination to you? How dare you compare the Holy Cross to a pagan symbol. You're no better than a Muslim.

As for the Greek language, the word σταυρός does mean cross. That's further verified by words like crossroads which is σταυροδρόμι in Greek and crosseyed which is σταυρομάτικα in Greek. Your Greek knowledge is atrocious.
 
For me, I believe I can be saved by following the Christ's instruction, without following these religious practices, traditions and philosophies the religious sects of this world promote.
God bless you, my brother.
This is faith, based on trust of what Christ instructed.
 
I was talking about the actual Cross, not just a symbol or image. You know, the Holy Cross that Jesus was crucified on or is that an abomination to you?
The actual cross does not exist anymore.
Let's start by recognizing that.

So, our feeling of reverence towards the cross is an attitude towards an image, an idea, a symbol, a memorial.

*****

THE QURAN AND THE CROSS

Prophet Muhammad never attacked the cross.
God revealed through the Quran that the enemies of Jesus thought they had destroyed Him in the most shameful and terrible way (crucifixion), but this was an appearance God allow them to be deceived into.

Most Muslims have interpreted this as if saying that Jesus was not historically crucified. I don't agree with my Muslim brothers.

The killing of Christ was apparent because his enemies only killed his body. They could not defeat the spiritual reality of The Christ.
Jesus was "put to death in the flesh" (1 Peter 3:18).
To put this in the right context, remember that a crucified Messiah, in the minds of the Israelites, meant another defeated messiah... another false Messiah... a cursed messiah! (Galatians 3:13)
The true Messiah should win, not lose. The true Messiah should be crowned as King and show power to revert not only the spiritual situation of Israel, but its political and social situation, and its reputation among nations. Furthermore, rather than finding an early death, the Messiah was expected live many years and know their descendants (Isaiah 53:10).
Crucified people died totally naked, before the eyes of everyone entering or leaving the city. Their death was slow. Crucifixion was a mean for the State to show its overwhelming power... its ability to crush the criminal's body, mind, and dignity. So this was NOT supposed to be the death of a King!

What the Quran teaches is that the enemies of Jesus believed that they had inflicted the worst possible defeat of Jesus... but this was only in appearance. By sacrificing his life, Jesus proved to be a true and victorious Messiah.

Let's read the ayah. These are the enemies of the Messiah speaking:

"Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them." (4:157)

The term "another" is not in the original, but has been added in many translations, under the commonly held view among Muslims that God provided another prisoner to be crucified instead of Jesus.
Take the word "another" out and the meaning changes: God allowed the event to resemble a defeat of Jesus, but this was apparent. On top of the cross, the testimony of his messianic nature as King of the Jews. On the lips of the Roman soldier, the words "He was indeed the Son of God".
 
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Actually, the symbol of the cross existed long before Israel became slaves in Egypt, and was popular in the pagan religions of the world which surrounded Jerusalem long before Jesus was even born. Along with the Goddess "Venus" and the Sun God that Constantine worshipped, and the Greek gods and symbols, etc.

In fact, the Greek word for cross is "stauros" which means a stake or pole, often used in ancient cultures to tie or nail a malefactor to for the purpose of punishment and torture. The "T" symbol, introduced into Christianity by Constantine era Priests, originated in Pagan worship, in exactly the same way as Sunday worship, Winter Solstice, pagan celebrations of the vernal equinox, and other ancient Pagan symbols and high days introduced into what we know as "Christianity", some 300 plus years after Jesus ascended to His Father and my Father.

These religious symbols and celebrations plagued Israel throughout their journey in that they adopted them into a religion they created in rebellion to God and His Way. Paul mentions this is 1 Cor. 10, as practices we should not lust after, as they did. The reference to the stake or pole on which Jesus was crucified, was used by the Apostles to represent the "flesh" which is crucified, replaced with a NEW Man that can no longer die, sin or suffer, as was the body Jesus was raised with.

1 John 3: 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it "doth not yet appear what we shall be": but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

There are "many" who have transformed themselves into apostles of Christ, who claim to know what this "Body" shall be. But Jesus and Paul warned not to be deceived by them.

In this matter, Pancho is right. There is no instruction, commandment or promise of God to give this New Life, that HE gave to His Son Jesus, only to those who partake of idolatry, ancient pagan symbolism, high days or observations promoted by the many differing religious businesses and sects of this world since before the Tower of Babel. This would include religoiuns who called Jesus Lord, Lord.

So to say the image of the ✝️ isn't or hasn't been an intragyral part of this world's religious sects and businesses long before Jesus was murdered, is foolishness and ignores history that can be easily examined by our own eyes.

I do find it fascinating that the most important symbols, high days, and judgments promoted by this world's religions, who come in Christ's Name, are never spoken of, practiced, observed or otherwise prophesied about, except to warn not to partake of them.

For me, I believe I can be saved by following the Christ's instruction, without following these religious practices, traditions and philosophies the religious sects of this world promote.

And this because of what is written about Him in the Holy Scriptures.
Saved by following the Christs instruction. Impossible. And your christ is impersonal just the opposite of the personal Christ of the Bible.
 
I was talking about the actual Cross, not just a symbol or image. You know, the Holy Cross that Jesus was crucified on or is that an abomination to you? How dare you compare the Holy Cross to a pagan symbol. You're no better than a Muslim.

As for the Greek language, the word σταυρός does mean cross. That's further verified by words like crossroads which is σταυροδρόμι in Greek and crosseyed which is σταυρομάτικα in Greek. Your Greek knowledge is atrocious.

It is an abomination to him. He believes Jesus died a meritless death. He believes Jesus was just a victim.
 
The actual cross does not exist anymore.
Let's start by recognizing that.

So, our feeling of reverence towards the cross is an attitude towards an image, an idea, a symbol, a memorial.

*****

THE QURAN AND THE CROSS

Prophet Muhammad never attacked the cross.
God revealed through the Quran that the enemies of Jesus thought they had destroyed Him in the most shameful and terrible way (crucifixion), but this was an appearance God allow them to be deceived into.

Most Muslims have interpreted this as if saying that Jesus was not historically crucified. I don't agree with my Muslim brothers.

The killing of Christ was apparent because his enemies only killed his body. They could not defeat the spiritual reality of The Christ.
Jesus was "put to death in the flesh" (1 Peter 3:18).
To put this in the right context, remember that a crucified Messiah, in the minds of the Israelites, meant another defeated messiah... another false Messiah... a cursed messiah! (Galatians 3:13)
The true Messiah should win, not lose. The true Messiah should be crowned as King and show power to revert not only the spiritual situation of Israel, but its political and social situation, and its reputation among nations. Furthermore, rather than finding an early death, the Messiah was expected live many years and know their descendants (Isaiah 53:10).
Crucified people died totally naked, before the eyes of everyone entering or leaving the city. Their death was slow. Crucifixion was a mean for the State to show its overwhelming power... its ability to crush the criminal's body, mind, and dignity. So this was NOT supposed to be the death of a King!

What the Quran teaches is that the enemies of Jesus believed that they had inflicted the worst possible defeat of Jesus... but this was only in appearance. By sacrificing his life, Jesus proved to be a true and victorious Messiah.

Let's read the ayah. These are the enemies of the Messiah speaking:

"Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them." (4:157)

The term "another" is not in the original, but has been added in many translations, under the commonly held view among Muslims that God provided another prisoner to be crucified instead of Jesus.
Take the word "another" out and the meaning changes: God allowed the event to resemble a defeat of Jesus, but this was apparent. On top of the cross, the testimony of his messianic nature as King of the Jews. On the lips of the Roman soldier, the words "He was indeed the Son of God".

Did you write this or just steal it from someone else?

Did Jesus do such things as you do?
 
The actual cross does not exist anymore.
Let's start by recognizing that.

So, our feeling of reverence towards the cross is an attitude towards an image, an idea, a symbol, a memorial.

*****

THE QURAN AND THE CROSS

Prophet Muhammad never attacked the cross.
God revealed through the Quran that the enemies of Jesus thought they had destroyed Him in the most shameful and terrible way (crucifixion), but this was an appearance God allow them to be deceived into.

Most Muslims have interpreted this as if saying that Jesus was not historically crucified. I don't agree with my Muslim brothers.

The killing of Christ was apparent because his enemies only killed his body. They could not defeat the spiritual reality of The Christ.
Jesus was "put to death in the flesh" (1 Peter 3:18).
To put this in the right context, remember that a crucified Messiah, in the minds of the Israelites, meant another defeated messiah... another false Messiah... a cursed messiah! (Galatians 3:13)
The true Messiah should win, not lose. The true Messiah should be crowned as King and show power to revert not only the spiritual situation of Israel, but its political and social situation, and its reputation among nations. Furthermore, rather than finding an early death, the Messiah was expected live many years and know their descendants (Isaiah 53:10).
Crucified people died totally naked, before the eyes of everyone entering or leaving the city. Their death was slow. Crucifixion was a mean for the State to show its overwhelming power... its ability to crush the criminal's body, mind, and dignity. So this was NOT supposed to be the death of a King!

What the Quran teaches is that the enemies of Jesus believed that they had inflicted the worst possible defeat of Jesus... but this was only in appearance. By sacrificing his life, Jesus proved to be a true and victorious Messiah.

Let's read the ayah. These are the enemies of the Messiah speaking:

"Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.' And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them." (4:157)

The term "another" is not in the original, but has been added in many translations, under the commonly held view among Muslims that God provided another prisoner to be crucified instead of Jesus.
Take the word "another" out and the meaning changes: God allowed the event to resemble a defeat of Jesus, but this was apparent. On top of the cross, the testimony of his messianic nature as King of the Jews. On the lips of the Roman soldier, the words "He was indeed the Son of God".
So what exactly do you want us to do with this report of yours that flies in the face of eye-witness, historical, and Biblical realities and facts concerning the Cross? Seriously, what exactly do you expect us to do with it?
 
Dear @civic

Why did you like the post of @praise_yeshua ?

I wrote this myself. I never quote someone else without giving the respective credit.
Our brother @praise_yeshua, has attacked me from a moral perspective relentlessly, we know it.
But why did you like his post?
Dear @Pancho Frijoles, this is the Dilemma you, jw's and others are in.

You read and study scripture and you say that "we do not need to worship Jesus because He is not Divine as His Father."
Yet the SAME scriptures declare that BEFORE the WORD came to earth as JESUS, "the WORD was with God and was God"

The SAME scriptures declare this of God:
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath
.

The SAME scriptures declare this:
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
So what exactly do you want us to do with this report of yours that flies in the face of eye-witness, historical, and Biblical realities and facts concerning the Cross? Seriously, what exactly do you expect us to do with it?
To do what Jesus did in the cross in regard to the Roman soldiers.
Pray for your Muslim brothers. Pray for yourselves. Pray for me. None of us knows exactly what we are doing.
 
Dear @Pancho Frijoles, this is the Dilemma you, jw's and others are in.

You read and study scripture and you say that "we do not need to worship Jesus because He is not Divine as His Father."
Yet the SAME scriptures declare that BEFORE the WORD came to earth as JESUS, "the WORD was with God and was God"

The SAME scriptures declare this of God:
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.
“Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!

For I am God, and there is no other.
I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath
.

The SAME scriptures declare this:
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Hi DavidTree

I bow my knee before Jesus, for the glory of God the Father.
I confess Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father.

But such kneeling and such confessions are worthless, if I don't follow the steps of Jesus.
Salvation does not depend on gestures or confessions. That would be superstition... something demons can also do.
Salvation depends of submitting our life to God, who is merciful enough to forgive us and change us into new persons.

Have a wonderful night, David.
 
Hi DavidTree

I bow my knee before Jesus, for the glory of God the Father.
I confess Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father.

But such kneeling and such confessions are worthless, if I don't follow the steps of Jesus.
Salvation does not depend on gestures or confessions. That would be superstition... something demons can also do.
Salvation depends of submitting our life to God, who is merciful enough to forgive us and change us into new persons.

Have a wonderful night, David.
EXCELLENT

Make one correction.

Salvation requires inward heart possession AND outward confession.

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”



Now help the jw''s and others to do the same!
 
@Pancho Frijoles says: "Salvation does not depend on gestures or confessions"

Just a loving reminder of Truth:

Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Have a wonderful night in Christ the Savior
 
To do what Jesus did in the cross in regard to the Roman soldiers.
Pray for your Muslim brothers. Pray for yourselves. Pray for me. None of us knows exactly what we are doing.
Someone who truly seeks forgiveness will always turn towards the truth (the Cross & Bible) and will always run away from falsehoods (the Quran).
 
Someone who truly seeks forgiveness will always turn towards the truth (the Cross & Bible) and will always run away from falsehoods (the Quran).
No! Your statement is wrong in several levels.
  1. Seeking forgiveness is turning away from sin! Doctrinal Mistakes are not sins! There is no single example in the Bible of a person who was considered sinner for being mistaken.
  2. Seeking forgiveness is turning towards God, and not to the cross or the Bible. Was David turning to the cross or the Bible when he sought forgiveness in Psalm 51? I have been forgiven by God without having turned to the cross or the Bible, and so millions like me.
  3. God forgive us even when we cling to false religious beliefs. That includes you, me, and @DavidTree . Millions have died holding the same religion they were raised as children, and still forgiven and sanctified.
  4. The Holy Quran is a revelation from God, just as the books of the Bible… but God forgives you even when you hold wrong ideas about this. God knows your heart. Someday you, @DavidTree and I will meet Prophet Muhammed in person, and we will be filled by love and thankfulness to Him.
 
No! Your statement is wrong in several levels.
  1. Seeking forgiveness is turning away from sin! Doctrinal Mistakes are not sins! There is no single example in the Bible of a person who was considered sinner for being mistaken.
So believing in the Jew-hating cut-throat Quran verses is not sin? Seriously? The Baha'i have masterfully completed their brain washing on you.
  1. Seeking forgiveness is turning towards God, and not to the cross or the Bible. Was David turning to the cross or the Bible when he sought forgiveness in Psalm 51? I have been forgiven by God without having turned to the cross or the Bible, and so millions like me.
The Holy Spirit is the Life Giver. Only if you're regenerated (Born Again), are you spiritually saved. That's what Pentecost is all about.
  1. God forgive us even when we cling to false religious beliefs. That includes you, me, and @DavidTree . Millions have died holding the same religion they were raised as children, and still forgiven and sanctified.
  2. The Holy Quran is a revelation from God, just as the books of the Bible… but God forgives you even when you hold wrong ideas about this. God knows your heart. Someday you, @DavidTree and I will meet Prophet Muhammed in person, and we will be filled by love and thankfulness to Him.
What will be your conversations with him be about? The Jew-hating cut-throat Quran verses? :unsure:
 
Are you a Universalist or not? You're all over the place. If you're a Universalist, then why in the world are you arguing about details? Universalists do care about details. Details destroy Universalism.

Again, I do not accept the religious labels of this world that you have adopted and use to demean or marginalize others who don't adopt the religious businesses of this world, or their philosophies you are here to promote.

For example, your utterly preposterous response to @synergy here.......

The promise of the cross was given to the world that perished in the flood. The symbolism of the cross comes from a single ancestor of all mankind. The fact you don't know this shows just how ignorant you are concerning the details of faith.

I don't believe in the ancient Pagan symbols that you have adopted, their high days that you promote, or the image of God you worship. You are free to trust in them, but I have come to know they have no power at all. The God and Father of the Lord's Christ has all the Power and gives His Spirit to whom HE promises to give it to. So you are free to follow the masses, and promote the Catholic sabbaths and their high days, and their symbols and their images of God in the likeness of men and their manmade shrines of worship made of wood and stone and their marketing strategies employed to grow their religious businesses and on and on. But I will not bow down to them, nor fear them, nor will I any longer yield myself a servant to obey them as is the tradition of this world's religious system. I will follow instead, the Jesus "of the bible" as HE instructs, and I will worship the Same God HE worshipped and instructed me to worship, and I will pray to the same God HE prayed to and instructed me to pray to. And you will label me and make judgments of me and mock me, and ridicule me just as Jesus said you would. This is one way I know I am on the right Path.

It is why you and your friend are so clumsy in your defenses. You have no knowledge of the details. Your comments prove it. I recommend you stop embarrassing yourself in your feeble attempts to "prove your points".

While I understand your judgments against everyone who doesn't adopt your religion, and where these judgments come from, I cannot turn from the living God just to receive praise from you. I hope you understand, but even if you don't, I will still believe "ALL" that is written and will continue to "Live by" the Words of God, as the Jesus "of the Bible" did and instructs me to do. You and Kenneth Copeland or any of this world's self-proclaimed "ministers of righteousness" can make all the judgments you want, promote whatever images of God or philosophies of this world you want, but I will not turn away from the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, or the Path Jesus walked and invited me to strive for. And would invite you to repent and consider doing the same. I believe it is a choice we all men must make.

You're at a crossroads in your life. Choose wisely. Admit it. You don't know enough about God to even form an opinion.

I have long since passed this crossroad of which you speak, some 30 years ago now, when I walked in the religious philosophies of this worlds religious sects and businesses that you have adopted and are now promoting. The same as Paul, "Wherein in time past he walked according to the course (religions) of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

But I thank God through His Son, the Christ Jesus "of the Bible", for the opportunity to share a Faith that has not been molded and shaped after the religious imaginations of the heart of men, after the traditions and philosophies of this world's religious sects and businesses that have plagued God's people since Eve listened to the "other voice" in the garden. Rather, a Faith grounded in belief and Trust in the One True God, and Jesus Christ, who this God sent.

Thank you again for the blessing you make available to me.
 
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