God is Plural

dizerner said:
You mean of course the specified "doctrine," as this word is used literally in the Greek.

You can't be against something you don't understand properly, and affirm indirectly in your own writings.

At least not really.


Was he against PSA too?
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This one is somewhat amazing.
As you said the Greek word kenosis is literally in the scripture. so how can some deny it as truth?
 
sethproton said:
This one is somewhat amazing.
As you said the Greek word kenosis is literally in the scripture. so how can some deny it as truth?
Click to expand...
And there is an unbiblical teaching on Kenosis . Just like there are false gods , false Christs , false teachings etc…
 
civic said:
And there is an unbiblical teaching on Kenosis . Just like there are false gods , false Christs , false teachings etc…
Click to expand...
you think paul was addessing the unbiblical teacning about kenosis in Phil 2? if not what was paul teaching? What does Paul mean by kenosis in contex?
 
civic said:
Read my last post there is a link where I address it.
Click to expand...
you know I don't read links;
but we can look at the definition of kenosis.
the verb form is uesd in Phil 2:7
it means to empty make void, deprive of force to make useless
it is connected to this thought: although He existed in the form of God, He didn't grasp (THAT FORM) but emptied Himsel beccoming a man.
So He was still God, but emptied of Godly attributes so he could become in the form of a man. which He did for a while, but not forever
 
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sethproton said:
you know I don't read links;
but we can look at the definition of kenosis.
the verb form is uesd in Phil 2:7
it means to empty make void, deprive of force to make useless
it is connected to this thought: although He existed in the form of God, He didn't grasp it but emptied Himsel beccoming a man.
So He was still God, but emptied of Godly attributes so he could become in the form of a man. which He did for a while, but not forever
Click to expand...
Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Philippians 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7

Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.

Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.

He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.

conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
You know I don't read two page cut and pastes. You know that if you want a response from me you have to specifically answer my questions and keep very specifically on topic. It does not take more than a few sentences to define a word
 
sethproton said:
You know I don't read two page cut and pastes. You know that if you want a response from me you have to specifically answer my questions and keep very specifically on topic. It does not take more than a few sentences to define a word
Click to expand...

With ancient words you can't really do that, it's pretty nuanced.

Here's the TNDT, but know that there is a lot of debate on ancient Biblical words when they hinge on important doctrines:

379
κενός kenoÃs [empty],
κενόω kenoÃoÒ [to make empty],
κενόδοξος kenoÃdoxos [boaster],
κενοδοξία kenodoxiÃa [conceit, delusion]

kenoÃs.

A. Outside the NT.

1. Literally the meaning is “empty” — usually things, but also persons.
2. Figuratively the reference is to vain or frivolous persons or futile things, e.g., opinions, boastings, speech, and cf. the expression eis kenoÃn, “in vain.”

B. In the NT.

1. The literal sense occurs in Mk. 12:3; Lk. 1:53; 20:10-11. In Lk. 1:53 (cf. 1 Sam. 2:7-8) we have the thought of the great reversal when the rich go away empty (cf. Mt. 5:3ff.).
2. Jms. 2:20 has the figurative sense for persons: an “empty” or “foolish” person. Mostly, however, the NT uses the word figuratively for things, e.g., empty words in Eph. 5:6 (cf. Jms. 4:5), empty deceit in Col. 2:8, futile grace in 1 Cor. 15:10, futile work in 1 Cor. 15:58. In saying that neither grace nor our service is in vain, Paul expresses a strong sense of confidence in God's gift and of the resultant responsibility this imposes on us. His visit (1 Th. 2:1) was not “in vain” both because there was no guile or self-seeking in it and because it was successful in the power of God at work in it (1:5-6). In contrast, his preaching would be kenoÃs, i.e., without content and also ineffective, if Christ were not risen (1 Cor. 15:14).

kenoÃoÒ. This word means “to make empty” (passive “to be desolate”) and “to nullify” (passive “to come to nothing”). The first sense occurs in the NT only in Phil. 2:6-7 (of Christ). This can hardly mean that Christ negated himself, nor is it suggested that he aspires beyond his existing state. The point, then, is that Christ does not selfishly exploit his divine form but lays it aside to take the form of a servant. The preexistent Lord is the subject. He remains himself, but changes his mode of being (cf. 2 Cor. 8:9). For the second sense, we turn to 1 Cor. 9:15 and 2 Cor. 9:3. Paul would rather die than allow anyone (by supporting him) to nullify his ground of boasting, and he presses the collection lest his boasting about the Corinthians come to nothing. In Rom. 4:14 inheritance by the law would invalidate faith. Similarly, in 1 Cor. 1:17 a synthesis of content and brilliance of technique would rob the cross of its force, i.e., of its saving content, its consequent offense, and its related divine efficacy.

kenoÃdoxos. This word means “one who talks big,” “boaster,” as in Gal. 5:26.

kenodoxiÃa. This word has the two senses a. “delusion,” and b. “conceit.” Only b. occurs in the NT (Phil. 2:3), though we find both in the apostolic fathers (a. in Hermas Σιμιλιτυδεσ 8.9.3, and b. in Hermas Mandates 8.5). [A. OEPKE, III, 659-62]
Click to expand...
 
sethproton said:
You know I don't read two page cut and pastes. You know that if you want a response from me you have to specifically answer my questions and keep very specifically on topic. It does not take more than a few sentences to define a word
Click to expand...
Sure it does do you own a lexicon sometimes there are 2-3 pages for a single word. And words only have meanings from the context in which they are being used and I provided its biblical context with exegesis.

Do you require the same thing with others in your Bible study groups limiting them to only one sentence responses ?

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
Sure it does do you own a lexicon sometimes there are 2-3 pages for a single word. And words only have meanings from the context in which they are being used and I provided its biblical context with exegesis.

Do you require the same thing with others in your Bible study groups limiting them to only one sentence responses ?

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
you talk about meaning in context. We have our context but you will not say what the meaning is in our specific context, just the possiblilities for multiple contexts
 
sethproton said:
you talk about meaning in context. We have our context but you will not say what the meaning is in our specific context, just the possiblilities for multiple contexts
Click to expand...
I’ve given the definition and meaning from its context with the Greek lexicons.


Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!
 
civic said:
I’ve given the definition and meaning from its context with the Greek lexicons.


Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.

When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Here's a good point. theses posts of yours are not really responses to my posts. In two previous posts I have declared that Jesus was always God, but in your cut and pastes you explain to me that Jesus remained God. Obviously this was not written to me put pulled out of a library
Since I aleady believe Jesus was always God why do you try to instruct me by teaching me what I already told you?
 
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sethproton said:
Here's a good point. theses posts of yours are not really responses to my posts. In two previous posts I have declared that Jesus was always God, but in your cut and pastes you explain to me that Jesus remained God. Obviously this was not written to me put pulled out of a library
Since I aleady believe Jesus was always God why do you try to instruct me by teaching me what I already told you?
Click to expand...
Did Jesus while walking this earth have all the exact same Divine attributes as the Father in heaven without lacking a single one ? Yes or no
 
civic said:
Did Jesus while walking this earth have all the exact same Divine attributes as the Father in heaven without lacking a single one ? Yes or no
Click to expand...
I will answer that directly but first tell me why you are trying to teach me Jesus is God when I already know.
You have a terrible habit of not addressing wat I have said, but instead moving on to your next point.
 
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