Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[FreeInChrist]

Reprobates are those God created as vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction Rom 9:22

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

They being outside of Election in Christ are under Divine hate and disapproved.

This is a loving God?

 

[atpollard]

First, the fact is that all mankind is in sin and rebellion against God. God does not have to elect anybody. When God chooses to save a sinner, He puts forth an action to save that person. God works to create belief in us. This contrasts with the doctrine of reprobation. God does not put forth an effort to cause people to sin. When God chooses to bypass a sinner, He does not work to create unbelief in that person's heart. Rather, God simply lets him go his own way.

We see this clearly illustrated in Romans 1 ...

[ESV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. ...
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, ...
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, ...
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; ...
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

• Men chose evil.
• God simply allowed it.

 

[atpollard]

This is a loving God?

Yes, since a truly JUST God would have destroyed Adam and Eve and not wasted any time enduring our sinful rebellion for even one moment!

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience -- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3 [ESV]​

​

So it is only a LOVING God that can say:

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.) - Romans 9:15-16 [ESV]​

 

[Biblelesson]

When we see that love and hate boil down to favor and disfavor, we can see that they are objective and that they involve conscious decisions.

6 But it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are reckoned as descendants. 9 For this is what the promise said, “About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12 she was told, “The elder will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Romans 9:6–13.

The Bible says that God hates some people. Romans 9:13 says that God hated Esau before Esau was even born, because Esau had inherited Adam's hatred of God, and God was not pleased (in His mysterious decision) to elect Esau to salvation. Psalm 5:5 says, "The arrogant cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all who do wrong." Notice that is it not some abstract "sin" or "wickedness" that God hates in this verse; it is people whom He hates.

Psalm 139:21–22 tells us that we should join God in His holy hatred of these people: "Do I not hate those who hate You, O Lord …? I have nothing but hatred for them; I count them my enemies." The New Testament says the same in Revelation 2:6.

How are we to understand this? In some cases, hate simply means "love less." In Luke 14:26 we find Jesus saying that we must hate the members of our own families if we want to follow Him, while in the parallel passage in Matthew 10:37, Jesus says we must love them less than we love Him. That kind of "soft" explanation, however, won't work in the passages we cited above. God did not love Esau less than Jacob; He did not love Esau in any saving way at all.

It is Psalm 139:21–22 that gives us an important perspective on this matter. To hate someone is to count him as an enemy and to treat him as an enemy. In the Bible, hatred is not an emotion primarily, but rather a covenant action. Those who treat God as an enemy will find God treating them the same way. Since they are His enemies, and He "hates" them, He will destroy them.

The "soft" and the "hard" senses of hatred can be put together this way: When the Bible speaks of God's loving someone, it means He has chosen to favor them; when it speaks of God's hating someone, it means He has chosen not to favor them. Thus, we are to favor Christ and not favor the members of our families. Thus, God favored Jacob and did not favor Esau. Thus, we favor God's friends and we do not favor God's enemies (Psalm 139).

Favoring is a choice, not an emotion. When family members attack the church, we must choose to side with Christ. When God favors us, it means He elects us; those He disfavors, He leaves to their own damnation.

 

[FreeInChrist]

The elect were never vessels of wrath, because they were always vessels of mercy

As @civic said : read

Ephesians 2:1–3 — New American Standard Bible (1995) (NASB95)​

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Then the context of this is....

Alive with Christ
4 But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,…

Ive read it, they were never vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, they were always vessels of mercy, objects of Gods mercy, look at Vs 4

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So while they were being children of wrath by nature, they were not objects of His wrath by nature, dead in sin, they clearly were objects of Gods Mercy and Great Love.

The same who Calvin wrote of God " while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184)

 

[FreeInChrist]

Right here.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
Romans 9:19–21

If only some people are predestined to be saved, then it logically must follow that other people are not. The doctrine of predestination to salvation is called the doctrine of election, and the doctrine of predestination to damnation is called the doctrine of reprobation.

There is some mystery in these doctrines of predestination, but as we have said before, if we don't say that God predestines all things, we don't have a God at all. If He is not totally sovereign, He is only a "big man" like Zeus or Baal. At the same time, there are some things we can say about the doctrines of election and reprobation, and we need to say them.

First, the fact is that all mankind is in sin and rebellion against God. God does not have to elect anybody. When God chooses to save a sinner, He puts forth an action to save that person. God works to create belief in us. This contrasts with the doctrine of reprobation. God does not put forth an effort to cause people to sin. When God chooses to bypass a sinner, He does not work to create unbelief in that person's heart. Rather, God simply lets him go his own way.

Thus, second, we say that election and reprobation are not "equally ultimate." In election, God powerfully acts to change a person from a sinner to a saint. God does not act to change a saint into a sinner. Election is an act of God; reprobation is simply the reflex of that action, the fact that God has not elected everybody.

Third, we have to say that God's action of deciding to save some is simultaneously a decision not to save others. The decision to save is called election, and the decision not to save is called preterition. Since this is one action, it can be seen as two sides of one coin, and "equally ultimate" in that sense.

But, and this is most important, when God implements election by calling the saints, He saves us apart from anything we have done. When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone. In this important sense, the work of God in condemning the wicked is not the reverse side of His work in saving sinners.

What I see you saying is simply

So IOW... we have no choice at all. We either get elected, or we get basically damned.

Boy. It almost sounds like God might have messed up when Adam was created. It seems very difficult the road God chose
in this predestination thing. Basically having to pick and chose which of his creation would be elected and the rest not.

How much easier it would have been if God had instilled free will and a little more brain into making where man would accept or reject God and then God would not be blamed for any rejections.

Everyone keeps saying we don't have the brains or the IQ to understand things we read or hear..... and that is why free will cannot be and never has been.

WOW

 

[Icabod]

This is a loving God?

If only some people are predestined to be saved, then it logically must follow that other people are not. The doctrine of predestination to salvation is called the doctrine of election, and the doctrine of predestination to damnation is called the doctrine of reprobation.

There is some mystery in these doctrines of predestination, if we don't say that God predestines all things, we don't have a God at all. If He is not totally sovereign, He is only a "big man" like Zeus or Baal. At the same time, there are some things we can say about the doctrines of election and reprobation, and we need to say them.

First, the fact is that all mankind is in sin and rebellion against God. God does not have to elect anybody. When God chooses to save a sinner, He puts forth an action to save that person. God works to create belief in us. This contrasts with the doctrine of reprobation. God does not put forth an effort to cause people to sin. When God chooses to bypass a sinner, He does not work to create unbelief in that person's heart. Rather, God simply lets him go his own way.

Thus, second, we say that election and reprobation are not "equally ultimate." In election, God powerfully acts to change a person from a sinner to a saint. God does not act to change a saint into a sinner. Election is an act of God; reprobation is simply the reflex of that action, the fact that God has not elected everybody.

Third, we have to say that God's action of deciding to save some is simultaneously a decision not to save others. The decision to save is called election, and the decision not to save is called preterition. Since this is one action, it can be seen as two sides of one coin, and "equally ultimate" in that sense.

But, and this is most important, when God implements election by calling the saints, He saves us apart from anything we have done. When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone. In this important sense, the work of God in condemning the wicked is not the reverse side of His work in saving sinners.

 

[FreeInChrist]

If only some people are predestined to be saved, then it logically must follow that other people are not. The doctrine of predestination to salvation is called the doctrine of election, and the doctrine of predestination to damnation is called the doctrine of reprobation.

There is some mystery in these doctrines of predestination, if we don't say that God predestines all things, we don't have a God at all. If He is not totally sovereign, He is only a "big man" like Zeus or Baal. At the same time, there are some things we can say about the doctrines of election and reprobation, and we need to say them.

First, the fact is that all mankind is in sin and rebellion against God. God does not have to elect anybody. When God chooses to save a sinner, He puts forth an action to save that person. God works to create belief in us. This contrasts with the doctrine of reprobation. God does not put forth an effort to cause people to sin. When God chooses to bypass a sinner, He does not work to create unbelief in that person's heart. Rather, God simply lets him go his own way.

Thus, second, we say that election and reprobation are not "equally ultimate." In election, God powerfully acts to change a person from a sinner to a saint. God does not act to change a saint into a sinner. Election is an act of God; reprobation is simply the reflex of that action, the fact that God has not elected everybody.

Third, we have to say that God's action of deciding to save some is simultaneously a decision not to save others. The decision to save is called election, and the decision not to save is called preterition. Since this is one action, it can be seen as two sides of one coin, and "equally ultimate" in that sense.

But, and this is most important, when God implements election by calling the saints, He saves us apart from anything we have done. When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone. In this important sense, the work of God in condemning the wicked is not the reverse side of His work in saving sinners.

You say... When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone.

Do you have scripture supporting your belief?

I know that is not what Calvin said because Calvin said " while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to"
That is what some churches believe also. Many commentators said they are damned or will be sent to hell So that sure sound like something to me.

 

[brightfame52]

@Icabod

He simply leaves them alone.

Actually He does harden them and increases their condemnation, He is very active in it Rom 11:7-8

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

2 Thess 2:11-12

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God aint playing here, so He doesnt simply leave them alone

 

[atpollard]

nc

 

[Icabod]

You say... When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone.

Do you have scripture supporting your belief?

I know that is not what Calvin said because Calvin said " while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to"
That is what some churches believe also. Many commentators said they are damned or will be sent to hell So that sure sound like something to me.

Here is what I wrote:

First, the fact is that all mankind is in sin and rebellion against God. God does not have to elect anybody. When God chooses to save a sinner, He puts forth an action to save that person. God works to create belief in us. This contrasts with the doctrine of reprobation. God does not put forth an effort to cause people to sin. When God chooses to bypass a sinner, He does not work to create unbelief in that person's heart. Rather, God simply lets him go his own way.
And that would be a pathway to Hades, the realm of the dead.

God gives us faith to believe if we are one of His elect.

“Without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” Hebrews 11:6

Then Romans 14:23, which says, “Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”

I infer from those two passages (we could add others) that there is a sense in which everything that comes out of an unbelieving heart displeases the Lord. Or to say it differently, nothing that comes out of the heart of unbelief pleases the Lord.

 

[Biblelesson]

What I see you saying is simply

So IOW... we have no choice at all. We either get elected, or we get basically damned.

Boy. It almost sounds like God might have messed up when Adam was created. It seems very difficult the road God chose
in this predestination thing. Basically having to pick and chose which of his creation would be elected and the rest not.

How much easier it would have been if God had instilled free will and a little more brain into making where man would accept or reject God and then God would not be blamed for any rejections.

Everyone keeps saying we don't have the brains or the IQ to understand things we read or hear..... and that is why free will cannot be and never has been.

WOW

The God of all the universe knew you before you existed. But more than that, He determined your eternal destiny. If you are a believer today, it is because of what He did, not what you did. With what gratitude should we approach Him who loved us so?

28 We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose.

29 For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was aware and loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

30 And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].
Romans 8:28–30.

Romans 8 does not say that predestination is based on God’s prior knowledge of what people will do. Rather, His foreknowledge concerns His people themselves, the elect. He knows those whose destiny He predetermines.

 

[atpollard]

You say... When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone.

Do you have scripture supporting your belief?

We see this clearly illustrated in Romans 1 ...

[ESV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. ...
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, ...
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, ...
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; ...
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

• Men chose evil.
• God simply allowed it.

 

[brightfame52]

We see this clearly illustrated in Romans 1 ...

[ESV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. ...
21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, ...
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, ...
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; ...
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.

• Men chose evil.
• God simply allowed it.

In Vs 24 where it says God gave them up, well thats aorist active, so God was active in the giving them up to their hearts evil desires, He is active in Judgment

 

[Selah]

What I see you saying is simply

So IOW... we have no choice at all. We either get elected, or we get basically damned.

…but what does God say?

By the way, you sure get around. I’ve lost count.

 

[FreeInChrist]

…but what does God say?

I was responding to the following by @Biblelesson

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me thus?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?
Romans 9:19–21

If only some people are predestined to be saved, then it logically must follow that other people are not. The doctrine of predestination to salvation is called the doctrine of election, and the doctrine of predestination to damnation is called the doctrine of reprobation.

There is some mystery in these doctrines of predestination, but as we have said before, if we don't say that God predestines all things, we don't have a God at all. If He is not totally sovereign, He is only a "big man" like Zeus or Baal. At the same time, there are some things we can say about the doctrines of election and reprobation, and we need to say them.

First, the fact is that all mankind is in sin and rebellion against God. God does not have to elect anybody. When God chooses to save a sinner, He puts forth an action to save that person. God works to create belief in us. This contrasts with the doctrine of reprobation. God does not put forth an effort to cause people to sin. When God chooses to bypass a sinner, He does not work to create unbelief in that person's heart. Rather, God simply lets him go his own way.

Thus, second, we say that election and reprobation are not "equally ultimate." In election, God powerfully acts to change a person from a sinner to a saint. God does not act to change a saint into a sinner. Election is an act of God; reprobation is simply the reflex of that action, the fact that God has not elected everybody.

Third, we have to say that God's action of deciding to save some is simultaneously a decision not to save others. The decision to save is called election, and the decision not to save is called preterition. Since this is one action, it can be seen as two sides of one coin, and "equally ultimate" in that sense.

But, and this is most important, when God implements election by calling the saints, He saves us apart from anything we have done. When God implements preterition by reprobating the wicked, He does not do anything to them; He simply leaves them alone. In this important sense, the work of God in condemning the wicked is not the reverse side of His work in saving sinners.

By the way, you sure get around. I’ve lost count.

Well if GCM comes back , I'll go back home.

Until then... I'll still be forum hopping, finding old friends, making new ones, and making enemy's. After all, I have only been permanently blocked on one forum AND FACEBOOK.... so I am sure you will still see me hither and yon.

 

[Biblelesson]

…but what does God say?

By the way, you sure get around. I’ve lost count.

Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation. They are called the “elect” because that word denotes “determining beforehand,” “ordaining,” “deciding ahead of time.” Every four years in the U.S., we “elect” a President—i.e., we choose who will serve in that office. The same goes for God and those who will be saved; God chooses those who will be saved. These are the elect of God.

The concept of God electing those who will be saved (predestination) isn’t controversial. It is a biblical truth:

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44,

28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. 5 He destined us in love to be his sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will Ephesians 1:4-5

 

[Selah]

Simply put, the “elect of God” are those whom God has predestined to salvation.

True.

 

[Tobias]

What Are the Five Points of Calvinism? Reformation Bible College​

The real story

What Are the Five Points of Calvinism? :: Reformation Bible College

One of the phrases readers commonly encounter in contemporary Reformed theological works is “the five points of Calvinism.” Often, the five points will be outlined through the use of the acronym TULIP. Each of the five letters in TULIP stands for one of the five points:

reformationbiblecollege.org

 

[synergy]

(Matt 22:14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke 8:4-15 [KJV]

4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. ​

9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? ​

10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. ​

11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.​

All of the seeds that fell on soil were a "call", but only the good soil was "chosen" to yield a harvest.
Who breaks up hard soil, removes the rocks and pulls the weeds to prepare a garden soil?

• The soil (man)?
• The Gardener (God)?

Acts 16:14 [KJV] And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

• God prepared the soil ... Paul "called" to all who were listening and Lydia was "chosen" by God to yield a harvest.

Acts 13:44, 48 [KJV] And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. ... And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

• Almost the whole city was "called" by the preaching of Paul's words ... "as many as were ordained" were "chosen" to believe.

In the Parable of the Sower, it is not explicitly stated who is responsible for the condition of the soil, but the purpose of the Parable suggests that each hearer is responsible for the condition of their own heart, which the soil represents.

The Seed = the Word of God.
The Soil = the human heart (the hearer's spiritual receptiveness).
The Sower = Jesus or anyone proclaiming God's Word.

The fact that only the good soil bears fruit and that the other types fail for preventable reasons (hardness, shallowness, distraction) implies that hearers bear some responsibility for the state of their hearts.

In Luke 8:15, Jesus says the good soil represents those who "with a noble and good heart, hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop" – suggesting intentional perseverance and moral character matter.

However, scripture also affirms that God works in hearts to make them receptive (Ezekiel 36:26, John 6:44, Philippians 2:13).

This sets up a synergistic view: God gives grace and calls, but the human response matters.

Conclusion:
The hearer is responsible for their response to the Word, which shapes the condition of the soil. Yet, God’s grace is what enables the heart to become good soil, showing a cooperative relationship between divine initiative and human responsibility.