Runningman
Active Member
It's a good step that you want to use logic. Are you talking about normal logic or trinitarian logic?
Eternal Generation of the Son (Aseity)
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civic
Active Member
Similar to this right ?
It's a good step that you want to use logic. Are you talking about normal logic or unitarian logic?
i'm not used to the new normal that unitarians are trying to create. All the unitarian needs to do is make an argument to explain away the testimony of scripture about the Word being God and being with God and then becoming incarnate.
civic
Active Member
It’s known as word “ salad “ . They create their own unbiblical meanings of words and redefine them to fit their beliefs. Some uni’s have even created their own translation where they change the meaning of those biblical words. The translation is no longer Gods word. The JWs with their NWT.
It is a telltale sign of creating a new English translation to express unitarianism readings when this has not been a common practice over the many hundreds of years of English translations. Maybe that add "the word was a god" as part of it.
Here's an interesting translation of John 1:14
And the Word became flesh and took up residence [eskēnōsen, literally, “tabernacled” or “pitched his tent”] among us, and we saw his glory [doxan], glory [doxan] as of the one and only from the Father, full [plērēs] of grace and truth. (John 1:14 LEB)
J. Ed Komoszewski and Robert M. Bowman Jr., The Incarnate Christ and His Critics: A Biblical Defense ( Kregel Academic, 2024), 285–286.
We can so easily skim across words like "dwelt" (or "took up residence"). Someone who is born and exists only as a man would not be described as tabernacling among Jews. If only a man, the passage would say Jesus was born (reflecting the well-known teachings of God) and we met him -- or some other normal context. Nor would mere words, as expressive of the qualities of God, be tabernacling among the Jews in the first century. The Word has to have conscious and continuous self-existence to become flesh and tabernacle among the people.
Runningman
Active Member
Well, "Unitarian logic" is based on normal logic. It leverages what everyone already knows, making it intuitive and easy to understand without any guesswork.
For example, in normal logic, anyone who is created, anointed, empowered, exalted, sent, resurrected, glorified, etc is not the same person who did those things to them. That's why we're saying Jesus isn't God, as normal logic demands this necessary conclusion. Someone who is begotten is not eternal, 3 does not equal 1, singular pronouns always refer to one person, etc. These are normal logical things that you all, as trinitarians, deny, but everyone else in the world understands intuitively. @mikesw
Runningman
Active Member
Perhaps you should try going out more and talking to people. No one on earth agrees with you except those who have been indoctrinated into your organization.
Exactly. The atheists reject who Jesus is and reject the testimony of scripture. I stand against that.
uh. You may notice that Jesus is not the Father nor is the Father Jesus. They are differentiated while also being one. You get that confused especially when trying to talk about what Christians note about the Triune God. Christians have wisdom beyond the worldly, fleshly insights. The things of God are spiritually discerned, not interpreted according to normal human logic where Christ is ignored.
Runningman
Active Member
I see your organization has a tight clutch on you. They have convinced you that those who do not agree with their version of logic are atheists. It's unfortunate that, by extension, they have judged God, Jesus, the prophets, every believer in the church, and all of the apostles as atheists by using such kind of statements.
I can prove to you that Jesus isn't the same one who created, anointed, empowered, exalted, sent, resurrected, glorified him, that those who are begotten are not eternal, that 3 does not equal 1, and singular pronouns never refer to more than one person in , and prove to you that those who wrote the Bible used the same form of conventional reason and logic that normal people still use and understand in the present day. Not many in the Bible seem to be atheists either. The question is, do you have the capacity for it or do you want to just continue arguing against Scripture?
Diserner
Active Member
Demonstrably false.
"Fear not, you worm Jacob, You men of Israel! (Isa. 41:14 NKJ)
The singular noun Jacob along with personal singular pronouns is used dozens of times in Isaiah for an entire people.
And this principle is used in several other places as well.
Christ and Paul have a tight clutch on me indeed. Sorry if you missed being part of Christ's organization.
You can prove that God does not exist. That is a key atheist emphasis.
Runningman
Active Member
You just claimed that Jesus and Paul's normal logic makes makes them atheists, now you're saying they have a tight clutch on you. It seems you are very confused.
One example of Jesus demonstrating normal pronoun usage that defies your logic is that Jesus demonstrates that he himself is a he, but him and God together are an our or we. This means that God and Jesus together are two persons. He explicitly stated this fact.
John 14
23Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
Runningman
Active Member
Not a good example. This is an english translation of the plural Hebrew word מְתֵ֖י (mə·ṯê) which means men or a few men. "You men" is plural, but there isn't actually a singular pronoun in the Hebrew, but it appears in the English. Nice try, but no dice.
Care to try again?
You miss the implications of the verse you just quoted. A correction to a believer in the true Christ would accept the clarification. Jesus equate himself as of the same essence as the Father. Christians do not have a physical Jesus in them. The reason that Jesus can commit the Father and himself to make a home within a disciple is that they are differentiated but unified as God.
Runningman
Active Member
So we have just proven that Jesus by himself is a me or my, indicating he is one person. Then Jesus together with God is an our or we, indicating two persons. The normal logical reading of the Bible clearly states that Jesus isn't God. You should rescind your claims that anyone who uses normal logic like Jesus is an atheist.
Duhhh. Jesus is one person. Who said he was multiple people. Your response makes no connection with what I shared.
The Triune God indeed has multiple persons (in a philosophical meaning). That is a dominant message with John. God then is expressed as unity and plurality in John 14:23. You must consider that or claim that a physical Jesus is going to make a home in Christians. You make the discussion more confused with each post rather than getting a cohesive idea.
Runningman
Active Member
So Jesus is one person and God is another person. This isn't rocket science Mike. You are confusing the language and Scripture because you're actually an atheist about the Christian God. You believe in a god that was invented in the fourth century, entirely pagan in concept, not spoken of one time in all of Scripture. I respect your freedom to do as you wish, but don't try to merge your god into our religion and bend over backwards to invent new words and concepts that God, Jesus, and the prophets do not share with you in Scripture.
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