Ephesians 4:5 - The One Baptism of The Sevenfold Unity of The Spirit.
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DavidTree
Well-known member
Care to show where it is called a baptism of fire
And no they were baptized in the Holy Spirit and received the Spirit
'
Acts 11:16–17 (KJV 1900) — 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Acts 15:8–9 (KJV 1900) — 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
and had their hearts purified
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, it would not. Proper harmonization of Scripture leads from John 3:5 where we are born again by water and the Spirit, to Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 where we are born again through baptism, and then to 1 Pet 3:21 where we are saved through baptism in water. And this brings us back to Jesus command in Mark 16:16 that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. And then to Acts 2:38 where the men who had already believed were told to repent and be baptized so that they could receive forgiveness of their sin. And further to the comments in Gal 3:26-27 and Eph 5:26 where it is through the washing of water by the word / baptism that we are washed clean (spiritually) and are clothed with Christ and become children of God.
Your preconception, that the water in John 3:5 cannot possibly mean baptism, is forcing you to go searching for some other explanation, and you are pouncing on the fact that the Spirit is referred to as living water flowing out of the soul that has already been saved to fill the gap. But it doesn't work. The Spirit's water flows out of the life of the soul that has already been saved. It is not the water by which we enter into salvation.
I didn't ask you what belief does not mean. I asked what belief means.
Ahh, believing in Jesus means trusting in Him. You keep throwing in the word "alone". If I trust in you "alone", do I not also trust in what you say? Do I not also trust in those you send? Do I not also trust that you will keep your promises, and follow through on every aspect of what you have commanded?
So if I trust in Jesus for salvation, then I will also trust in what He has said, and that He will keep His promises. I trust that He will give His salvation to those He has said He will give it to: those who obey Him (Heb 5:9). And I trust that He will only save those who are born of both water and the Spirit (John 3:5). And that He will only claim before the Father those who have publicly claimed Him before men (Matt 10:32, Rom 10:9-10). Etc. Trust in Jesus is not just trust in Him, but trust in everything He has said, done, promised, offered, condemned, etc.
And belief with action is rewarded with what God has promised. But belief without action is dead and will not be rewarded. The actions that lead to receiving salvation are inherent in a belief/faith that is real, alive, and effective, just as James says that it is. If the "belief" does not generate action at least to the point that it does what God has said is required to receive salvation, then the "belief" is not real, and salvation is not received.
I am not confused in any way. The catholic cult is papist, not a Christian Church, so I am glad that you escaped from them. But you are still on the wrong side of this issue. Faith is not works that would earn or merit salvation. You cannot earn salvation, no matter how much you do, or how many good works you perform. But it does require the obedient works that God has mandated saying that they lead to/result in receiving salvation. To say anything else is to defy God's Word, to not trust in what He has commanded.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Both I and Davidtree have quoted the verse to you where it says that tongues of fire fell on the people in the upper room on Pentecost fulfilling the prophecy that they would be baptized in the Spirit and with fire (both occurred at the same time). This baptism has occurred exactly twice in all of the history of humankind: Pentecost and at Cornelius' house. Both were exactly the same. The Spirit fell ON them, giving the gift of tongues and praise. The people at Pentecost were already indwelt by the Spirit, so there was just an influx of the Spirit's power into them. The people are Cornelius' house were not indwelt, but they received the same power from the Spirit. And then they were baptized into Christ in water where they received the indwelling and their sins were removed.
Cornelius received exactly what they received on Pentecost, the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit. They did not receive indwelling or the forgiveness of sins when the fire fell on them.
Their hearts were purified when they were baptized in water immediately after, as is consistent with John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc. If they had their sins removed when the Spirit fell on them as you claim, then you make these other verses into a lie.
Read the verse
Acts 2:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them.
It does not say they were tongues of fire and it does not say this was the baptism of fire
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Yes, the tongues looked like fire. Does the prophecy of John say what form the fire will take? No. Does it say that the fire will be real, or eternal, or give any other descriptors? No. Could the fire be judgement? Sure, it could be. But I believe that the more likely explanation is that it is the Spirit looking like fire that fell on them on Pentecost, and again on the Gentiles at Cornelius' house. We will never know the correct answer to this in this life. The answer is not given in Scripture, and is irrelevant to our salvation. We will know when we get to Heaven, if it is necessary that we know the answer at all.
mailmandan
Active member
False. Being born again is only pictured in water baptism but not procured. When will you finally get that through your head? Jesus said born of water and the Spirit in John 3:5 and not born of baptism and the Spirit. Roman Catholics and Mormons would agree with your eisegesis though. False teachers turn the symbol of our salvation into the substance. Water baptism is merely the picture of being buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6:1-7; Colossians 2:11-12) and circumcision of the heart/Spirit baptism is the reality. (Romans 2:29; 1 Corinthians 12:13) Removal of sin/being united with Christ in His death, burial and resurrection/clothed in Christ is SIGNIFIED in water but NOT PROCURED. As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - A symbol is not the reality but is a picture of the reality.
In Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you (I noticed you stopped right there and ignored the rest) yet when Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).
Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contract with the water and they all perished. You need to learn how to read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.
The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."
If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
In regard to Acts 2:37, their "belief" at this point was mere "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah, and they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation and that's why they still needed to repent and place their faith in Christ alone for salvation.
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) Not through faith and baptism. Water baptism is the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality. The word "water" here in Ephesians 5:26 is used as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3) You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you/that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word. Plain, ordinary H20 has no power to spiritually wash our hearts clean from sin, but living water does. (John 4:10,14,7:37-39) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)
Well, I did not have to search far in order to figure out what born of water and the Spirit means. Further in John 3:15,16,18 Jesus makes the connection between belief and salvation "apart from water baptism." Elsewhere in the book of John, Jesus further makes the same connection. (5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) In the very next chapter, Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14 and He connects living water with eternal life in John 4:14. Also, in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water (which reaches the heart) and spiritual cleansing.
HERMENEUTICS. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.
πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
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Trusting in what He DID to save you. Not trusting in what you DO to save yourself. The latter is not trusting in Him but is trusting in works.
If you trusted in what Jesus said in the full sense of the word, then you would never sin at all. But... (Romans 3:23; 6:23) There is a difference between what Jesus commanded us in order to become saved and what Jesus commanded us after we have been saved.
You trust in your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works. Who has flawlessly obeyed Jesus 24/7? So, in regard to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists cite this verse to try and support salvation by works, including Roman Catholics and Mormons.
Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin. (1 John 3:9,10) In either sense, only believers obey Him.
Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on works. So, in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
John 4:10,14,7:37-39. You trust in water baptism and not what Jesus meant in John 3:5.
Jesus was not talking about 'lip service' confession here that is seeking salvation by works. That is not trusting in Jesus. Neither is your eisegesis in regard to everything Jesus has said, done, promised, offered, condemned, etc. Those who confess Jesus from the heart by the Holy Spirit are those who trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. (Romans 10:8-10; 1 Corinthians 12:3; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6) God does not reward works righteousness. (Romans 4:5-6)
Belief that results in no action at all is dead. Action without genuine belief is also just as dead.
False. Your eisegesis culminates in salvation by works, yet James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith. You continue to put the cart before the horse and there is a reason for that.
Salvation is received upon belief (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16; 4:5-6; 10:4 etc..) and actions/works follow. (Ephesians 2:8-10)
You most certainly are.
I also escaped from the Campbellism cult which also promotes a false gospel.
OXYMORON. If works stand between us and obtaining salvation, then there is merit in doing those works. Period. You can't have it both ways. If you are not trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation (trusting exclusively in what Jesus Christ has DONE) trusting in His death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) but instead trust in what you DO then you defy God's Word and do not trust in Him for salvation or in what He has commanded. (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26)
Doug Brents
Well-known member
Baptism simply means "immersion", it is immersion in water (as stated in 1 Pet 3:21) in which we receive the Spirit and forgiveness of sin.
The circumcision of the heart occurs during water baptism, as Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 state. Rom 2:29 says that the circumcision of the heart is done by the Spirit, and Col 2:11-12 says that the circumcision done by the Spirit happens during baptism. 1 Cor 12:13 says that it is by the same Spirit (one Spirit) that we are baptized into the one Body of Christ. This is NOT "Spirit baptism", but water baptism that the Spirit participates in by performing the circumcision talked about above.
Baptism, like Passover, is but a shadow of what is real. But as with the first Passover, if it does not happen the person remains in spiritual death. The Spirit did not pass over doors that did not have the blood on them. Similarly, the Spirit does not enter into the heart of one who has not passed through the water of baptism. It is in baptism that a person dies to sin (Rom 6:1-7). If one has not died to sin, then he cannot have new life.
Correct, it is not the act of washing dirt from the body that removes sin from the soul.
It is the inward, spiritual transaction that occurs during water baptism. This is clear from the fact that "baptism now saves you", and from the statements in Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7 that say we die to sin and have our sin cut from us DURING baptism.
No, they were not saved "by" the water. They were saved by their obedient faith in building the Ark, entering it, and trusting in the Word of the Lord. We too are saved by our trusting obedience of God in doing what He commands: water baptism.
There is no "unusual case" of someone being saved when they believe but are not baptized. If they believe, really truly believe, then they will be baptized in obedience to the one they call Lord. If they do not obey, then He is not really their Lord and they do not really believe.
And again, that is false logic. Condemnation rests on the fact that we have sinned. Salvation from sin rests on being united with Christ. Union with Christ only occur in water baptism, where we die to sin, our sin and its stain is cut from us by the Holy Spirit, and we are united to Christ's resurrection and given new life. Through unbelief we remain in sin, and with the stain of sin on us because we are not united to Christ's death and resurrection. Even if you are baptized but don't believe, then all you do is get wet; you are not united to Christ in any way.
Again, I assume that you are talking about these verses from John. None of these verses need to mention baptism, because baptism is discussed elsewhere in Scripture and does not need to be repeated everywhere salvation is discussed. John 3:36 makes it clear that "believes" in all of these verses is the opposite of "not obey". So to believe is to obey. If you don't obey, then you don't really believe. This is very clear, and requires blatant defiance of God to refute.
That is not what the command was in Acts 2:38. The command was not to repent and "put your faith in Christ alone for salvation." Let's stay true to what Scripture says, not change it to make it fit your preconception. The command was to "repent and be baptized for (in order to receive) forgiveness of sin."
Nothing could be further from the truth. There is no parenthesis in the Scripture, and no indication of parenthesis in the words used. "Repent" and "be baptized" are both antecedents of "for the forgiveness of sin". Again, this is your preconception changing what is written to make it fit what you already believe.
Read those passages more carefully. What does Peter say? They received the gift just as we did at the beginning. What was the beginning? Pentecost. The Apostles on Pentecost already had the indwelling of the Spirit, so all they received on Pentecost (the beginning) was the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. That is all that Cornelius received: the miraculous gifts of the Spirit. He did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit until he was baptized in water shortly after, according to the Scriptures. Repentance leads to life, it does not confer life.
Imperfect harmony, because it ignores or rewrites the clarification given in passages like 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14 and Rom 6:1-7 that state explicitly that we are saved in baptism, we die to sin in baptism, our sin is cut from us in baptism.
There is a period there. But there is also clarification given in the next sentence. Just as "therefore" at the start of a new sentence, verse, or chapter always points back to the previous sentence, verse, or chapter and continues the thought with some result or clarification; so too "for" in this case points back to the previous verse and gives clarification. "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian. 26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ."
We are no longer under a guardian (the OT) because we are now under faith BECAUSE we are now sons and daughters of God BECAUSE we who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ.
Baptism is the act of faith through which the blessing is conferred. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. It is faith that brings God's grace to us.
Wow, that is some convoluted eisegesis, that starts with a false premise. Your preconception makes you insist that the water in Eph 5:26 is just an emblem referring to the Word of God. But God's Word is already mentioned there. So why put water there at all if it is not real, physical water. We are washed clean, made spotless, justified, and purified by the washing of water (baptism - 1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Acts 2:38, etc.) through the command and direction of God's Word.
No, "water" is not arbitrarily defined as baptism. There are many places in Scripture where water does not refer to immersion into water. But when we are discussing salvation we must be consistent in our understanding, and let Scripture mold our understanding of passages. Taking all of the passages that speak of salvation, understanding that ALL Scripture must be true and correct at the same time, and not ignoring any or rewriting anything based on preconception, when we study them we must come to a few conclusions:
1. repentance must be done before salvation is received (Acts 3:19).
2. confession of Jesus as Lord must be done before salvation is received (Rom 10:9-10).
3. baptism in water is the point in time at which salvation is received (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38).
From here, we can see other passages that point to this as well (John 3:5, Eph 5:26, Gal 3:26-27, etc.). These passages do not establish that water baptism saves. Rather, they confirm what has already been discovered through study.
Not just trusting in what He did, but also trusting in what He said. And He said that if you love Him you will keep His commandments. And if you believe in Him AND are baptized you will be saved. If you don't trust in what He said, then you don't really trust Him, and so your condemnation remains.πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
G4100 - pisteuō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G4100 - πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from ; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
Trusting in what He DID to save you. Not trusting in what you DO to save yourself. The latter is not trusting in Him but is trusting in works.
We remain in a fallen world, and continually have temptations crowding around us. Just because we trust in Jesus does not mean that we will not sin anymore. Even the man after God's own heart (David) stumbled and sinned (adultery and then murder to cover up the adultery), but he turned back to God even after his sin. He never stopped trusting in God, but he did fall off the Path a time or two.
This is true. And the actions that are commanded after we are saved are a lifetime of good works, living as He lived. But the actions that are commanded before we receive salvation are not "good works", but are simple, meaningless (in and of themselves) actions that bring no value to ourselves or glory to Him. They are not "boast worthy", nor are they meritorious.
Even the lost do good sometimes. Does their doing good mean that they are saved? No. I do not trust in my works to save me. I trust in God to save me because I have done what He said do in order to receive His salvation.
Did Naaman cleanse his own leprosy? Did the water of Jordan remove his leprosy? Did he have to continually dip 24/7 in order to remain cleansed? Did Naaman trust in the water to cleanse him, or did he trust in God to cleanse him if he did what He said?
Even Satan can use the right words and get things right sometimes.
Wait, wait, wait. Belivers (the saved) obey Him by choosing to belive in order to become saved? The saved believe in order to become saved? Make up your mind. Are they saved because they belive? Or do they believe because they are saved? You can't have it both ways.
The truth is that a lost person is influenced by the Spirit to believe (still not saved yet), and then the person chooses to obey the Gospel (the commands that God says lead to receiving salvation: repentance, confession, and baptism) and now they are saved. Then they go on to begin living the life that brings glory to God through "good works" and the fruit of the Spirit.
Not true. The unsaved give to charities all the time. The unsaved help little old ladies across streets. The unsaved open and opperate orphanages and homeless shelters. The unsaved do all kinds of "good works". But these good works do not in any way impact their lostness. They do not "earn" them a lighter sentence in Hell.
Unbelievers do not obey the commands that God gave that lead to/result in salvaiton.
Again, Naaman did not trust in the water of Jordan to remove his disease. He trusted in the command of God through His prophet. The water was just a vehicle for God's blessing, just as water baptism is. The same could be said of the nation marching around Jericho, or the widow making her last cake for the prophet, or the widow gathering all the bottles she could in order to pour oil into them. The water , and the marching, and the cake, and the bottles were just the vehicle for obediece that God gave for His blessing to flow through. And these actions had to come before the blessing was received, just as baptism does before salvation is received.
Read the verse
Acts 2:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them.
It does not say they were tongues of fire and it does not say this was the baptism of fire
you offer nothing but rank speculation
mailmandan
Active member
Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ 1 Peter 3:21 - not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). So much for your eisegesis.
More eisegesis on your part and I have already proven otherwise. You just don't have ears to hear.
1 Corinthians 12:13 is crystal clear. By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.. and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. Also see John 4:10,14; 7:37 for the word drink(s). You blatantly deny clear Scripture in favor of your biased church doctrine.
More eisegesis.
At least you got that much right, but you still have a long way to go.
What is signified in baptism occurs before and not during water baptism. You continue to confuse the picture with the reality.
Everything with you is salvation by obedience/works and you call that salvation by faith. Ephesians 2:8,9 states otherwise. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience of building the ark was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning.
Thief on the cross and anyone one else who receives Christ on their death bed. Sadly, there are more cases of false believers getting baptized.
It logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe and are saved, but if someone is on their death bed and cannot get baptized before death, they are still saved because they BELIEVED (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but he who does not believe will be condemned. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "water baptized or condemned." Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience. Anyone professing to have believed in Jesus unto salvation and yet refusing to be water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone who truly believes the gospel would refuse to be water baptized. I could not wait to get water baptized after my conversion. I even gave about a 5-minute testimony on how I finally came to believe the gospel just before I was water baptized.
False logic on your part. The natural man just does not understand (1 Corinthians 2:14) as you have demonstrated numerous times by confusing the picture with the reality.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Oh, the irony.
Flawed hermeneutics.
In regard to "does not obey the Son" (John 3:36) in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which "follow" believing in the Son but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.
The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the HCSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." To refuse to believe in the Son is to disobey, rebel, be disloyal and refuse conformity. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." *In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.
Repentance is a "change of mind" and where salvation is in view the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. (Acts 20:21) You reject that in order to make it fit your preconception and accommodate your perverted water gospel.
What I explained to you in post #48 was the absolute truth, but you don't care about the truth. You only care about accommodating your biased church doctrine. I properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.
So once again, in Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.
Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).
In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.
*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
That describes your flawed hermeneutics.
Not at all and your eisegesis is not a clarification.
More eisegesis. We are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Period) I already thoroughly covered Galatians 3:27 with you in post #160 from the thread below but I'm sure it went right over your head.
Also, in John 1:12, we read - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: What happened to baptism? Hermeneutics.
More eisegesis.
Yes, by grace through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) Not by grace through baptism. We have access by faith into grace. (Romans 5:2) Not by baptism.
Your convoluted eisegeses always start with a false premise and your preconception makes you insist that "washing of water by the word" is water baptism when baptism is not mentioned in that verse. It's always the same old song and dance with you.
In John 15:3, Jesus tells his disciples, "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." (except for Judas Iscariot - John 13:10-11) So once again, emblem of the word of God is correct and when we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever." (I Peter 1:23) So the word "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) The natural man can only seem to understand natural water.
We have been over this 1,000 times. I've heard enough of your broken record eisegesis.
Trusting in what He said according to your eisegesis is not trusting in what He said. You trust more in what you DO to save yourself more than you trust in what He DID to save you.
Man is not sinless. (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10)
We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:10)
Apart from the blood of Christ how good will it look in the eyes of God?
LOL! Yes, you do. The scary part is you don't even realize it!
No, you trust in what you think He said to do (eisegesis) in order to receive His salvation.
We have already been over this multiple times.
To what cause and effect?
Believers (we become believers) the moment we choose to believe the gospel. My mind is made up. Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow choosing to believe the gospel. Sorry to burst your bubble and spoil your gotcha moment.
We are saved because we believe. (Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16) I'm not trying to have it both ways.
The gospel is found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Your 4-step CoC plan of salvation (that is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics) is not the gospel. Repentance precedes faith in our Lord Jesus Christ/believing the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; 20:21) Confess and believe are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism follows believing unto salvation. (Acts 10:43-47)
Ephesians 2:10 - For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Do the unsaved represent a good tree or a bad tree? (Matthew 7:17) So, you are saying that unbelievers genuinely obey Christ by setting out to do good deeds in their own strength? How did that work out for these many people in (Matthew 7:22-23)?
That is true. Unbelievers confuse obedience to God's commands with salvation by works and end up remaining lost.
Naaman received healing from leprosy in Jodan and not the remission of sins. Your logic is flawed.
Again, your logic is flawed and your obsession with water baptism keeps you from believing the gospel.
Prove that is the meaning and then quote scripture which speaks of immersion into water.
Define immersion while you are at it.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
You have proven otherwise according to your preconceptions, but not according to Scripture. Your refusal to accept what faith really is blinds you to accepting what is required to receive initial salvation from God.
Yes, it is clear as far as it goes, but it does not tell the whole story just as Mark 15:26 is clear but does not tell the whole story.
Not according to Scripture, it does not. Rom 6 says we die to sin in baptism, not before. Col 2 says our sin is cut from us by the Holy Spirit in baptism, not before. 1 Pet 3:21 says we are saved in baptism, not before.
Noah had already demonstrated his faith, and that was the basis for God showing him grace. His faith continued and so was continually rewarded by grace. The example of building the Ark was not the beginning of his faith, but it was the brightest shining example of it. But the harlot Rahab's faith began with her saving the spies. Isn't it interesting how you pick your battles and exclude examples that don't tell the story you want told?
The thief on the cross is not an example of NT salvation. He was saved under the OT, and so does not enter into this conversation.
That is very true. The Holy Spirit does not meet people in the water if there is no faith in their heart. But He also does not ever remove their sin before they enter the water, because one must be born of both water and the Spirit to enter the Kingdom of God.
Great story, but it is just that, a story, it is not truth. NO ONE in the NT era is ever forgiven of their sins before they are water baptized. If that ever happens, then Scripture is a lie, and there is no sense having faith in it. Just as Paul says, if Jesus did not raise from the dead, then our faith is in vain. So too, if anyone ever receives forgiveness without being reborn of both water and the Spirit, then John 3:5, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7, 1 Pet 3:21, and other passages are lies, which would make the whole of Scripture a lie, which would invalidate our faith completely.
We have been over this again, and again, and again. Belief is not just thinking. Belief is faith, and faith requires, demands, is dead and useless without action/works. If there is no works, then the faith/belief is meaningless. God has said that repentance is required BEFORE forgiveness of sin is received (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19). He has also said that the physical action of confessing Jesus as Lord with the mouth is required BEFORE salvation is received (because it results in salvation)(Rom 10:9-10). He has also said that water baptism is required BEFORE salvation is received (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 22:16). All of these verses give specific reference to what it means to "believe", "trust", "have faith", etc. in Jesus.
It is completely unnecessary to say "believes and obeys" because if you don't obey then you really don't believe. True belief includes the concept of obedience automatically; it goes without saying (which is why Paul didn't say it). To obey the Son is to do what the Son says. In Luke 6:46, Jesus asks why they call Him Lord, but don't do what He says. And in John 14:15 Jesus says that if we Love Him, we will keep His commandments.
That is your narrow view of what it means to obey, shaded so that it will fit with your preconception. But that is not the Scriptural view of it. To obey is not just to believe in Him, but to do what He says, live how He lived, follow where He walked. If we don't do what He said, then He is not our Lord. If we don't do what He said, we don't really love Him. If we don't do what He says, then we don't really have faith/trust in Him.
We have already covered that repentance is an act of faith in Jesus. It is part of what it means to trust in Jesus, just as confessing Him as Lord is also an act of faith in Him to save us. But just confessing Him as Lord does not make Him your Lord. Obedience to what He commands is what actually makes Him your Lord.
That is your explanation so that the verse will fit with your preconception. There is nothing in the language that makes "each one of you be baptized" into a parenthetical phrase. "For the remission of sins" refers back to BOTH clauses. If it only refers back to one, then it refers back to the one that is closest to it, which would be "each one of you be baptized".
They received the Holy Spirit's miraculous power of tongues before they were saved in water baptism. They did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit, or forgiveness of their sins, or become part of the Body of Christ when the Spirit fell on them in tongues of fire as on Pentecost.
Belief in Jesus is not just the mental exercise of accepting the truth about Jesus from Scripture. Belief in Him includes doing what He has commanded of those who would have Him as their Lord. So whoever believes in Him will do those things that He has said result in receiving remission of sin, and so they receive remission of sin. If you don't do what He said results in receiving remission of sin, then you don't really believe in Him, and so you don't receive remission of sin.
Perfect harmony implies the inclusion of EVERY verse that applies to the subject. You have included only those verses that don't conflict/contradict your conclusion. When you include in your harmony the passages (like Acts 2:38 properly understood, and 1 Pet 3:21, and Acts 22:16, and Mark 16:16, and Col 2:11-14, and Rom 6:1-7, and Gal 3:26-27, and Eph 5:26, and John 3:5 etc.), then you must include repentance, and confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism as all being required to receive remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.*So, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*
You covered it based on your faulty doctrine, but you did not cover it based on proper Scriptural truth. Gal 3:26 says that we are sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus, this is true. But the thought does not stop there. The Holy Spirit through Paul goes on to say that we are sons and daughters of God through faith in Jesus because we have been baptized into Christ and thereby have been clothed in Him. All who have been baptized into Him have been clothed with Him, but if you have not been baptized into Him then you have not been clothed with Him.
And in Mark 15:27 we read that the charge against Jesus read, "The King of the Jews". What happened to Him being from Nazareth? What happened to Greek, Latin, and Hebrew? Not every verse that deals with a subject has to state every detail of what is involved in that subject.
Baptism is an act of faith that God has commanded as the point at which salvation is received. And it is through baptism that the grace of salvation is received (1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, etc.). It doesn't matter that you don't believe it, it is still truth.
The Holy Spirit is indeed referred to as Living Water, but that is not the water that is associated with baptism. Phillip and the Eunuch did not pass by the Spirit, or go down into the Spirit, or come up out of the Spirit. They went by physical water, and went down into physical water, and came up out of physical water. The water of the Flood that floated the Ark was not the Spirit, and the Flood water was a foreshadowing of the water of baptism, so the water of baptism is not the Holy Spirit. You make a good argument, but it does not agree with what Scripture says.
Nothing could be further from the truth. If I did not trust in Him, then doing what He says would have no value or impact. But I cannot trust in Him without trusting in what He said.
We do not become saved the moment we make up our mind to believe the Gospel. That is a purely mental exercise which is not faith. Faith is not a purely mental exercise. We become saved when we DO what Jesus commanded that LEADS TO/RESULTS IN receiving salvation. Intellectual assent belief is meaningless. Rom 10:9-10 says clearly that the physical action of confessing Jesus with the mouth RESULTS IN receiving salvation. And then in verse 14 that confession is said to be "calling on the name of the Lord" which is what Saul was commanded to do in baptism which resulted in his sins being washed away. Just choosing to believe the Gospel is not the act of obedience that saves.
Belief is not just intellectual assent (choosing to believe the Gospel). That is what I have been trying to get you to see through these hundreds of posts. Belief requires physical actions; the physical actions that Scripture says lead to/result in receiving salvation.
All of these things should happen at the same time. Repentance does not precede faith. It is a step of faith. And it does not precede believing, because there is no reason to turn around if we do not believe we are going the wrong direction in the first place. Confession must come as soon as the intellectual assent belief is reached, and should be done as part of baptism (calling on the name of the Lord). This is all one process, not multiple steps over weeks or months (that is your church's unBiblical practices influencing your belief), but as demonstrated in Acts, should be done with haste, all in the same hour.
No. Repentance, confessing Jesus, and baptism are not "good works" that would earn or merit salvation. They are acts of faith that lead to receiving salvation from God.
The logic is not flawed. Healing from leprosy was a gift from God: grace. Salvation is a gift from God: grace. Both are received through obedient action to the commands of God that He said lead to receiving them.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
im·merse
verb
verb: immerse;
1. dip or submerge in a liquid.
im·mer·sion
noun
noun: immersion
1. the action of immersing someone or something in a liquid.
βαπτίζω - Transliteration - baptizō
to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)βάπτισμα - Transliteration - baptisma
immersion, submersionIn Acts 8:36-38, Phillip is teaching the eunuch and the eunuch asks to be baptized as they are passing by some water. They go down into, and then come up out of the water after the eunuch is baptized/immersed.
In Acts 22:16, Saul is commanded to get up (meaning that whatever it is in which he is to be baptized cannot be done while he is sitting there on his pallet (not Spirit baptism).
In 1 Pet 3:21, the Flood is said to be the shadow to the substance of baptism through which we are saved by faith in Jesus.
In Matt 28:19, baptism is an action that the Apostles (and all subsequent teachers of the Gospel) are commanded to perform on their students when they come to believe. Thus, baptism cannot be something that only the Spirit can do.
In Mark 16:16 (the companion of Matt 28:19), belief in the Gospel and baptism are both said to result in salvation being received.
Baptizo
Do you have a single new testament verse in an established translation which reads immerse
Do you have any evidence to immerse means to submerge and emerge
baptizo translated wash
Mark 7:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Luke 11:38 (NASB 2020) — 38 When the Pharisee saw this, he was surprised that Jesus had not first ceremonially washed before the meal.
907 βαπτίζω [baptizo /bap·tid·zo/] verb. From a derivative of 911; TDNT 1:529; TDNTA 92; GK 966; 80 occurrences; AV translates as “baptize” 76 times, “wash” twice, “baptist” once, and “baptized + 2258” once. 1 to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk). 2 to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe. 3 to overwhelm
James Strong, Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon (Woodside Bible Fellowship, 1995).
Doug Brents
Well-known member
No, because beginning with the first translation of the Bible into English, the Greek word was not translated but transliterated from baptizo into baptize (instead of immerse), and baptizma into baptism (instead of immersion). Since that time, these transliterated words have become common in English usage, and so everyone uses them even though some of them don't know what the word means or its origin.
Sure it is translated "wash" in some places, because immersion was the method of ceremonial washing done for most things as is indicated by the additional suffixes to the word:
the washing
βαπτισμοὺς (baptismous)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Plural
Strong's 909: Dipping, washing (of a ceremonial character). From baptizo.
The truth is no major bible translates baptizo as immerse but wash is a valid translation
Mark 7:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
and baptismos
Mark 7:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mark 7:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Hebrews 9:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Doug Brents
Well-known member
The reason for that has already been explained. The true meaning of the word is to immerse. Sometimes the immersion is for the purpose of washing, but not always.
Sorry the word has a number of meaning and you have not posted a single bible verse showing it means to immerse in the biblical text or that what you envision as the method may be accurately expressed only by the word immerse
BTW you left uncommented
Baptizo
Mark 7:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
and baptismos
Mark 7:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
Mark 7:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Hebrews 9:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
dwight92070
Well-known member
Did you notice that Zaccheus was saved before he was baptized? Yes, they DID have baptism then, and it represented the same thing then as it did after Jesus' resurrection. All new disciples of Jesus were baptized by the twelve disciples, or in the case of a large crowd of new disciples, other disciples. John 4:1-2 "Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were) ... " John 4:1-2
Jesus told Zaccheus "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Luke 19:9-10
Doug and others say, "Oh that was under the Law - we can't go by that anymore." Hypocrites! You claim to be disciples of Jesus, but you disallow anything that He said or didn't say, taught or didn't teach, did or didn't do, to be used to learn truth. There's much riches of truth in all of those, but you say, "we can't use that because that was under the Law".
Going by that reasoning, we can't glean any truth that we can use today from Jesus and His life. Who is it that wants us to believe that? That's right - Satan. Jesus came to explain and reveal God to us, but since supposedly He lived under the Old Testament era, we can't benefit from any of that today. That is an evil Satanic lie!
The truth is that the New Covenant began in Matthew 1:1 and has continued to this day. Yes, He told people to keep the Law, but He also didn't always keep the Law. He never kept the Sabbath, nor did He teach others to keep it. He disregarded the Law about touching dead bodies or lepers. Instead of directing people to offer sacrifices for their sins, He forgave them for their sins right on the spot. Yet at other times He directed them to obey the Law. The truth is that Jesus' whole lifetime was a TRANSITION PERIOD away from the Old and into the New Testament.
In fact He Himself WAS the NEW COVENANT. Isaiah 49:8 says:
Thus says the Lord, "In a favorable time I have answered You, and in a day of salvation I have helped You; and I will keep You and GIVE YOU FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, ..."
This is why the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are in the New Testament, because that was the beginning of the New Covenant.
Jesus told Zaccheus "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost. Luke 19:9-10
Doug and others say, "Oh that was under the Law - we can't go by that anymore." Hypocrites! You claim to be disciples of Jesus, but you disallow anything that He said or didn't say, taught or didn't teach, did or didn't do, to be used to learn truth. There's much riches of truth in all of those, but you say, "we can't use that because that was under the Law".
Going by that reasoning, we can't glean any truth that we can use today from Jesus and His life. Who is it that wants us to believe that? That's right - Satan. Jesus came to explain and reveal God to us, but since supposedly He lived under the Old Testament era, we can't benefit from any of that today. That is an evil Satanic lie!
The truth is that the New Covenant began in Matthew 1:1 and has continued to this day. Yes, He told people to keep the Law, but He also didn't always keep the Law. He never kept the Sabbath, nor did He teach others to keep it. He disregarded the Law about touching dead bodies or lepers. Instead of directing people to offer sacrifices for their sins, He forgave them for their sins right on the spot. Yet at other times He directed them to obey the Law. The truth is that Jesus' whole lifetime was a TRANSITION PERIOD away from the Old and into the New Testament.
In fact He Himself WAS the NEW COVENANT. Isaiah 49:8 says:
Thus says the Lord, "In a favorable time I have answered You, and in a day of salvation I have helped You; and I will keep You and GIVE YOU FOR A COVENANT OF THE PEOPLE, ..."
This is why the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are in the New Testament, because that was the beginning of the New Covenant.
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