Ephesians 4:5 - The One Baptism of The Sevenfold Unity of The Spirit.

[Doug Brents]

What came FIRST the chicken or the egg?

The chicken.

Now that I have answered your nonsensical question, let's get back to the truth of Scripture. We are saved by the gift of God, through baptism which is an act of faith commanded by God as the point at which He removes our sin and gives us new life in Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

The chicken.

Now that I have answered your nonsensical question, let's get back to the truth of Scripture. We are saved by the gift of God, through baptism which is an act of faith commanded by God as the point at which He removes our sin and gives us new life in Christ.

Now that I have answered your nonsensical question,

Chicken is CORRECT

Let's get back to the truth of Scripture

A.) What was non-sensical about the question?

B.) How did you derive your answer?

We are saved by the gift of God, through baptism

C.) Where in Scripture doe sit say "water baptism is the gift of God"?

 

[TomL]

Scripture does not say anything about water baptism being an "outward sign" of anything. It says that IN BAPTISM we die to sin (Rom 6:1-7),

There is no mention of water in Rom 6:1-7

Romans 6:3–7 (NASB 2020) — 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin.

baptism into Christ, baptism into death, but baptism into water - no

IN BAPTISM our sin is cut from us (Col 2:11-14), IN BAPTISM we are united to Jesus' resurrection and so resurrected like Him to new life (both of the above passages), IN BAPTISM we are saved (1 Pet 3:21). No, the water has no power to remove sin, just as the water of Jordan had no power to cure the leprosy of Naaman, or marching around the city had the power to knock down the walls of Jericho. But the water is no less essential, because God commanded that IN BAPTISM is where we connect with the Holy Spirit to receive salvation through the power of the blood of Christ.

No mention of water here either

Colossians 2:11–14 (NASB 2020) — 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

All those things happen by the baptism en the holy Ghost

 

[DavidTree]

The chicken.

Now that I have answered your nonsensical question, let's get back to the truth of Scripture. We are saved by the gift of God, through baptism which is an act of faith commanded by God as the point at which He removes our sin and gives us new life in Christ.

Good Night Brother

 

[TomL]

C.) Where in Scripture doe sit say "water baptism is the gift of God"?

Nowhere

 

[mailmandan]

There is no mention of water in Rom 6:1-7

Romans 6:3–7 (NASB 2020) — 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin.

baptism into Christ, baptism into death, but baptism into water - no



No mention of water here either

Colossians 2:11–14 (NASB 2020) — 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

All those things happen by the baptism en the holy Ghost

As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Water baptism is merely the picture of being buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-7; Colossians 2:11-12) and circumcision of the heart/Spirit baptism is the reality. (Romans 2:29; 1 Corinthians 12:13) False religion turns the symbol of our salvation into the substance and the source.

 

[Doug Brents]

Chicken is CORRECT


A.) What was non-sensical about the question?

It is nonsensical because anyone who believes that God created the world as Genesis describes knows that God created all the plants and animals, including man, fully grown and adult. He did not create eggs, or infants, or immature. So the "confounding", "circular reasoning", "question of the ages" is not really that difficult. God came first and He created all things, including the chicken, and the chicken laid eggs; end of story.

B.) How did you derive your answer?

see above

C.) Where in Scripture doe sit say "water baptism is the gift of God"?

Baptism is not the gift of God. Salvation is the gift of God, and it is RECEIVED through baptism which is an act of faith.

 

[Doug Brents]

There is no mention of water in Rom 6:1-7

Romans 6:3–7 (NASB 2020) — 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for the one who has died is freed from sin.

baptism into Christ, baptism into death, but baptism into water - no

In what way are we baptized into Jesus and His death? Through water baptism as 1 Pet 3:21 depicts. Through water and the Spirit as John 3:5 says. Through the baptism that man does and man receives as Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38 state.

No mention of water here either

Colossians 2:11–14 (NASB 2020) — 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

All those things happen by the baptism en the holy Ghost

The Holy Spirit is certainly active in baptism, but this is not "Spirit baptism"; it is water baptism. There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5), and it requires man to do it (Matt 28:19), it requires man to receive it (Acts 2:38), it requires water (1 Pet 3:21), it cannot be done passively (Acts 22:16), it includes both water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

 

[TomL]

In what way are we baptized into Jesus and His death? Through water baptism as 1 Pet 3:21 depicts. Through water and the Spirit as John 3:5 says. Through the baptism that man does and man receives as Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38 state.

Nope through the Holy Spirit

Matthew 3:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


THE FORMING OF THE BODY The church is formed as believers are baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. The Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism but Christ is the baptizer. At Jesus’ own baptism John the Baptist tells us that it is Jesus Christ, "He who is coming after me and is mightier than I," who would baptize "with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11; cf. Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33). As explained in the following verse, the baptism of fire is the judgment of hell, the burning of "the chaff with unquenchable fire." As Savior, Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit; as Judge, He baptizes with fire. All believers receive baptism with the Holy Spirit; all unbelievers will receive baptism with fire. Therefore every living soul will be baptized by Christ. Parenthetically, it should be noted that Paul is not speaking here of water baptism. Water baptism is an outward, physical ordinance believers submit to themselves and which is performed by other believers, in obedience to Christ’s command (Matthew 28:19; cf. Acts 2:38). Water baptism plays no part in conversion, but is a testimony to the church and to the world of conversion that has already taken place inwardly. Spirit baptism, on the other hand, is entirely the work of God and is virtually synonymous with salvation. The term baptizo ("to baptize") is used in the New Testament to refer to figurative immersion in trouble (Matthew 20:22-23, KJV) or to spiritual immersion (Romans 6:3-5) in Christ’s death and resurrection. As one can be immersed in water, so a believer is immersed spiritually into the Body of Christ. It should also be noted that the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is not a correct translation of any passage in the New Testament, including this one. En heni pneumati (by one Spirit) can mean "by or with one Spirit." Because believers are baptized by Christ, it is therefore best to translate this phrase as "with one Spirit." It is not the Holy Spirit’s baptism but Christ’s baptism with the Holy Spirit that gives us new life and places us into the Body when we trust in Christ. It is not possible to be a Christian and not be baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit. Nor is it possible to have more than one baptism with the Spirit. There is only one Spirit baptism, the baptism of Christ with the Spirit that all believers receive when they are born again. By this the Son places all believers into the sphere of the Spirit’s power and Person, into a new environment, a new atmosphere, a new relationship with others, and a new union with Jesus Christ (cf. 1Corinthians 10:2, where Paul shows how the nation of Israel left Pharaoh and Egypt to become immersed and identified with a new leader, Moses, and a new land, Canaan). The pouring forth of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost also reveals that this baptism was by Jesus Christ (Acts 2:32-33), in fulfillment of John the Baptist’s prediction (Matthew 3:11; etc.) and of Jesus’ own promise (John 7:37-39; 15:7-15; Acts 1:5). We are not told exactly how this is done, any more than we are told exactly how God can give a person a new heart and new life. Those are mysteries beyond our comprehension. But there is no mystery as to the divine roles in salvation. The Father sent the Son and the Son sends the Spirit. The Son is the divine Savior, and the Holy Spirit is the divine Comforter, Helper, and Advocate. The Son is the baptizer and the Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. Paul’s central point in 1Corinthians 12:13 is that baptism with the one Spirit makes the church one Body. If there were more than one Spirit baptism, there would be more than one church, and Paul’s whole point here would be destroyed. He is using the doctrine of baptism with the Spirit to show the unity of all believers in the Body. Many erring teachers today have used a wrong interpretation of the baptism with the Spirit to divide off from the Body an imagined spiritual elite who have what the rest do not. That idea violates the whole teaching here. For by one Spirit we were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free. The apostle could not have stated the truth more clearly. One Spirit baptism establishes one church. There are no partial Christians, no partial members of Christ’s Body. The Lord has no halfway houses for His children, no limbo or purgatory. All of His children are born into His household and will forever remain in His household. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3:26-27). All believers in Jesus Christ become full members of His Body, the church, when they are saved. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:4-6). It is interesting that those who advocate Christians’ seeking the baptism by the Spirit in order to belong to the spiritual elite cannot seem to agree on how that is to be done. They have many ideas and many theories but no scriptural method. The reason is simple: Scripture contains no command, suggestion, or method for believers to seek or receive the baptism of the Spirit. You do not seek or ask for that which you already possess. The believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came up to Samaria and laid hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit, but they were not told to seek Him. The purpose for that exception was to demonstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believers in general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers — just as a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his household in order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional events did not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the Body was one (Acts 11:15-17).

The Holy Spirit is certainly active in baptism, but this is not "Spirit baptism"; it is water baptism. There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:5), and it requires man to do it (Matt 28:19), it requires man to receive it (Acts 2:38), it requires water (1 Pet 3:21), it cannot be done passively (Acts 22:16), it includes both water and the Spirit (John 3:5).

Sorry there is no real baptism without the Holy Spirit

It is with the Holy Spirit one is baptized into the body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.


Water will get you wet

The spirit will give you life and seal you in Christ

Ephesians 1:13–14 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nope through the Holy Spirit

Matthew 3:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


THE FORMING OF THE BODY The church is formed as believers are baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. The Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism but Christ is the baptizer. At Jesus’ own baptism John the Baptist tells us that it is Jesus Christ, "He who is coming after me and is mightier than I," who would baptize "with the Holy Spirit and fire" (Matthew 3:11; cf. Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33). As explained in the following verse, the baptism of fire is the judgment of hell, the burning of "the chaff with unquenchable fire." As Savior, Christ baptizes with the Holy Spirit; as Judge, He baptizes with fire. All believers receive baptism with the Holy Spirit; all unbelievers will receive baptism with fire.

Matt 3:11 says that Jesus will baptize with the Spirit AND with fire; it does not say with the Spirit OR with fire. It is not an either/or statement; it is an AND statement. It is possible that this author is correct, that the "baptism of fire" refers to Hell, but it appears to me more likely that it refers to the baptism of fire received on Pentecost.

Therefore every living soul will be baptized by Christ. Parenthetically, it should be noted that Paul is not speaking here of water baptism. Water baptism is an outward, physical ordinance believers submit to themselves and which is performed by other believers, in obedience to Christ’s command (Matthew 28:19; cf. Acts 2:38). Water baptism plays no part in conversion, but is a testimony to the church and to the world of conversion that has already taken place inwardly.

That would certainly be an excellent explanation, but it contradicts 1 Pet 3:21. It is in water baptism that we are saved.

Spirit baptism, on the other hand, is entirely the work of God and is virtually synonymous with salvation. The term baptizo ("to baptize") is used in the New Testament to refer to figurative immersion in trouble (Matthew 20:22-23, KJV) or to spiritual immersion (Romans 6:3-5) in Christ’s death and resurrection. As one can be immersed in water, so a believer is immersed spiritually into the Body of Christ. It should also be noted that the phrase "baptism of the Holy Spirit" is not a correct translation of any passage in the New Testament, including this one. En heni pneumati (by one Spirit) can mean "by or with one Spirit." Because believers are baptized by Christ, it is therefore best to translate this phrase as "with one Spirit."

Baptism by, or with, the Holy Spirit is important to understand here. It is baptism IN water that brings about baptism WITH the Holy Spirit. It is in the water that the Holy Spirit takes action, as Col 2:11-14 makes clear (the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us (circumcision without hands) IN BAPTISM).

It is not the Holy Spirit’s baptism but Christ’s baptism with the Holy Spirit that gives us new life and places us into the Body when we trust in Christ.

And how do we trust in Christ? One way we trust in Him is by surrendering to His command to be immersed in water (baptized) in order to receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). If we do not surrender to His commands then we do not really trust Him.

It is not possible to be a Christian and not be baptized by Christ with the Holy Spirit. Nor is it possible to have more than one baptism with the Spirit. There is only one Spirit baptism, the baptism of Christ with the Spirit that all believers receive when they are born again. By this the Son places all believers into the sphere of the Spirit’s power and Person, into a new environment, a new atmosphere, a new relationship with others, and a new union with Jesus Christ (cf. 1Corinthians 10:2, where Paul shows how the nation of Israel left Pharaoh and Egypt to become immersed and identified with a new leader, Moses, and a new land, Canaan). The pouring forth of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost also reveals that this baptism was by Jesus Christ (Acts 2:32-33), in fulfillment of John the Baptist’s prediction (Matthew 3:11; etc.) and of Jesus’ own promise (John 7:37-39; 15:7-15; Acts 1:5). We are not told exactly how this is done, any more than we are told exactly how God can give a person a new heart and new life. Those are mysteries beyond our comprehension. But there is no mystery as to the divine roles in salvation. The Father sent the Son and the Son sends the Spirit. The Son is the divine Savior, and the Holy Spirit is the divine Comforter, Helper, and Advocate. The Son is the baptizer and the Holy Spirit is the agent of baptism. Paul’s central point in 1Corinthians 12:13 is that baptism with the one Spirit makes the church one Body. If there were more than one Spirit baptism, there would be more than one church, and Paul’s whole point here would be destroyed. He is using the doctrine of baptism with the Spirit to show the unity of all believers in the Body. Many erring teachers today have used a wrong interpretation of the baptism with the Spirit to divide off from the Body an imagined spiritual elite who have what the rest do not. That idea violates the whole teaching here. For by one Spirit we were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free. The apostle could not have stated the truth more clearly. One Spirit baptism establishes one church. There are no partial Christians, no partial members of Christ’s Body. The Lord has no halfway houses for His children, no limbo or purgatory. All of His children are born into His household and will forever remain in His household. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ" (Galatians 3:26-27).

It is true that there is only one Church, and all who are in Christ are equally sons and daughters of God through Christ. There is no partial, second class members of the Church. But Gal 3:26-27 is not talking about Spirit baptism. There is only one baptism in the NT Church, and that baptism is in, requires, and demands water to be involved. The baptism during which we are saved requires water (1 Pet 3:21), is an action that the teacher must do (Matt 28:19), is the point at which our sins are removed (Acts 2:38), and is required for salvation (Mark 16:16). The Holy Spirit does not remove sins while we are sitting there inactive (Acts 22:16), but we are required to move and submit to being baptized, to have our sins removed.

All believers in Jesus Christ become full members of His Body, the church, when they are saved. "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all" (Ephesians 4:4-6). It is interesting that those who advocate Christians’ seeking the baptism by the Spirit in order to belong to the spiritual elite cannot seem to agree on how that is to be done. They have many ideas and many theories but no scriptural method. The reason is simple: Scripture contains no command, suggestion, or method for believers to seek or receive the baptism of the Spirit. You do not seek or ask for that which you already possess. The believers in Samaria who were converted under the ministry of Philip had to wait a short while to receive baptism with the Holy Spirit, until Peter and John came up to Samaria and laid hands on the converts (Acts 8:17). In that unique transitional situation as the church was beginning, those particular believers had to wait for the Holy Spirit, but they were not told to seek Him.

These men in Acts 8:17 already had the indwelling of the Spirit, but they did not yet have any miraculous works of the Spirit. That is what they received when Peter and John laid hands on them. As the author here points out, everyone who is in Christ receives the Holy Spirit's indwelling at the moment that they are saved. But not all receive miraculous works by Him. These men were baptized by Phillip, who did not have the power and authority of the Apostles to pass on miraculous works through the Holy Spirit.

The purpose for that exception was to demonstrate to the apostles, and to bring word back to the Jewish believers in general, that the same Holy Spirit baptized and filled Samaritan believers as baptized and filled Jewish believers — just as a short while later Peter and a few other Jewish Christians were sent to witness to Cornelius and his household in order to be convinced that the gospel was for all men and to see that "the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also" (Acts 10:44-45). Those special transitional events did not represent the norm, as our present text makes clear, but were given to indicate to all that the Body was one (Acts 11:15-17).

Sorry there is no real baptism without the Holy Spirit

It is with the Holy Spirit one is baptized into the body of Christ

1 Corinthians 12:13 (NASB 2020) — 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

There is certainly no salvation without the Holy Spirit, but there is equally no salvation without immersion in water (John 3:5). Being born again requires both water and the Spirit. If either is missing, then rebirth does not occur.

Water will get you wet

The spirit will give you life and seal you in Christ

And He does so during water baptism (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-7). It is during water baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us.

Ephesians 1:13–14 (NASB 2020) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

How were you sealed? When? In water baptism (1 Pet 3:21). You like to selectively choose verses that speak of the result, but not the process. Yes, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, but we receive His seal in/through/during water baptism.

 

[civic]

As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Water baptism is merely the picture of being buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-7; Colossians 2:11-12) and circumcision of the heart/Spirit baptism is the reality. (Romans 2:29; 1 Corinthians 12:13) False religion turns the symbol of our salvation into the substance and the source.

wisdom speaks

 

[Doug Brents]

As Greek scholar AT Robertson said - "a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality." Water baptism is merely the picture of being buried and raised with Christ (Romans 6:3-7; Colossians 2:11-12) and circumcision of the heart/Spirit baptism is the reality. (Romans 2:29; 1 Corinthians 12:13) False religion turns the symbol of our salvation into the substance and the source.

Water baptism is not the "source" of salvation. That is a straw man conclusion. That is not what Scripture says, nor what is being claimed. Jesus is the source of salvation. Water baptism is simply the point in time in which Jesus said His salvation will be delivered to those who believe in Him and trust Him to give His salvation as He says He will give it. You are trying to say that God doesn't really mean what He says, and we can have His blessing without surrender to His will.

 

[mailmandan]

Water baptism is not the "source" of salvation. That is a straw man conclusion. That is not what Scripture says, nor what is being claimed. Jesus is the source of salvation. Water baptism is simply the point in time in which Jesus said His salvation will be delivered to those who believe in Him and trust Him to give His salvation as He says He will give it. You are trying to say that God doesn't really mean what He says, and we can have His blessing without surrender to His will.

Speaking of a straw man conclusion. I certainly believe that God means what He says. In John 6:40, Jesus said - "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Jesus also connects receiving eternal life with "believes" (no mention of baptism) in John 3:15,16,18, 5:24; 6:47; 11:25,26).

You need to put down your shoehorn and believe God. I believe God apart from your eisegesis. You turn baptism into the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation yet Jesus Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

 

[TomL]

Matt 3:11 says that Jesus will baptize with the Spirit AND with fire; it does not say with the Spirit OR with fire. It is not an either/or statement; it is an AND statement. It is possible that this author is correct, that the "baptism of fire" refers to Hell, but it appears to me more likely that it refers to the baptism of fire received on Pentecost.

Um Pentecost is not referred to as a baptism of fire.

That would certainly be an excellent explanation, but it contradicts 1 Pet 3:21. It is in water baptism that we are saved.

Um we are saved upon faith not water

John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Baptism by, or with, the Holy Spirit is important to understand here. It is baptism IN water that brings about baptism WITH the Holy Spirit. It is in the water that the Holy Spirit takes action, as Col 2:11-14 makes clear (the Holy Spirit cuts our sins from us (circumcision without hands) IN BAPTISM).

Um Cornelius and the gentiles were baptized en the Spirit before water

The Samaritans in Acts 8 had water but not the Spirit

And how do we trust in Christ? One way we trust in Him is by surrendering to His command to be immersed in water (baptized) in order to receive forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). If we do not surrender to His commands then we do not really trust Him.

UM the bible never speaks of immersion into water

try proving otherwise

 

[Doug Brents]

Speaking of a straw man conclusion. I certainly believe that God means what He says. In John 6:40, Jesus said - "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Jesus also connects receiving eternal life with "believes" (no mention of baptism) in John 3:15,16,18, 5:24; 6:47; 11:25,26).

That is all true, but it is not ALL that He said about salvation. There is so much that Jesus Himself said, and then inspired His Apostles to write, that details what it means to "believe". You ignore what else He said because it does not agree with your preconception.

You need to put down your shoehorn and believe God. I believe God apart from your eisegesis. You turn baptism into the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation yet Jesus Christ is the actual means of our salvation and faith is the instrumental means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

I have no shoehorn. I am simply trying to get you to expand your vision to what else God has said that you are continually ignoring. Just because all these verses that you cite only mention "belief" does not make them the end all to be all of salvation. You MUST include all the passages in which salvation is mentioned to come to a clear picture of what is required. Of course the water does not save us, just as holding onto a rope does not pull us from a pit. But just as if you don't hold onto the rope you will not be pulled out, so too if you aren't baptized as God has instructed you will not receive salvation from sin.

 

[Doug Brents]

Um Pentecost is not referred to as a baptism of fire.

"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them." Acts 2:1-3
OK, have it your way.

Um we are saved upon faith not water

John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion, because "believeth" doesn't explain what it means to "believe", while so many other verses do.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Bad translation. The better translation is found in the NASB, ESV, and RSV. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
Notice how "does not obey" is contrasted with "believes", indicating that "believe" and "does not obey" are opposites. Thus, to believe is to obey, and without obedience there is no belief.

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

More great verses that do not tell us what it means to "believe".

Um Cornelius and the gentiles were baptized en the Spirit before water

No, they received the gift of tongues from the Holy Spirit falling ON them, before they were saved in water baptism. Unless you are ready to claim that one can be saved and yet not be in the Kingdom of God, Cornelius was not saved when the Spirit fell on him (John 3:5). Unless you are ready to say that one can be saved and still have his sin stain on him, Cornelius was not saved when the Spirit fell on him (Acts 2:38).

The Samaritans in Acts 8 had water but not the Spirit

They had the indwelling of the Spirit, but not the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

UM the bible never speaks of immersion into water

try proving otherwise

The Greek word "baptizo" is the verb meaning "to immerse". The Greek word "baptizma" is the noun meaning "immersion". Baptizo has been transliterated into the English word baptize, and baptizma has been transliterated into the English word baptism.

That is what we have been talking about through this whole thread is baptism/immersion into water.

 

[mailmandan]

That is all true, but it is not ALL that He said about salvation. There is so much that Jesus Himself said, and then inspired His Apostles to write, that details what it means to "believe". You ignore what else He said because it does not agree with your preconception.

I don't ignore ALL that Jesus said about salvation and what Jesus said elsewhere does not negate what He said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 etc..) You ignore that Jesus said we are saved through belief "apart from additions or modifications" because it does not agree with your preconceived beliefs.

I have no shoehorn. I am simply trying to get you to expand your vision to what else God has said that you are continually ignoring. Just because all these verses that you cite only mention "belief" does not make them the end all to be all of salvation. You MUST include all the passages in which salvation is mentioned to come to a clear picture of what is required. Of course the water does not save us, just as holding onto a rope does not pull us from a pit. But just as if you don't hold onto the rope you will not be pulled out, so too if you aren't baptized as God has instructed you will not receive salvation from sin.

I understand what God has said about salvation apart from your eisegesis. Those verses that only mention "belief" are complete statements. You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

Your obsession with water baptism, along with your falty human logic and flawed hermeneutics culminates in a perverted gospel. NOWHERE in Scripture did God say that whoever is not water baptized will not receive remission from sin.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Doug Brents]

I don't ignore ALL that Jesus said about salvation and what Jesus said elsewhere does not negate what He said in (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 etc..) You ignore that Jesus said we are saved through belief "apart from additions or modifications" because it does not agree with your preconceived beliefs.

What God said elsewhere does not negate what He said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 etc., but it does qualify it.

I understand what God has said about salvation apart from your eisegesis. Those verses that only mention "belief" are complete statements.

They are complete statements as much as Mark 15:26 is a complete statement. They give what information was needed at that place in Scripture, but they do not give all the details that are included elsewhere in Scripture.

You need to properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine instead of distorting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

There is no distortion, patching together, or eisegesis in any of what I have said. I have properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture, not starting from a preconception, but letting Scripture lead me to the conclusions based upon what all of Scripture says about salvation.

Your obsession with water baptism, along with your falty human logic and flawed hermeneutics culminates in a perverted gospel. NOWHERE in Scripture did God say that whoever is not water baptized will not receive remission from sin.

John 3:5

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What does it mean to believe?

 

[DavidTree]

Um Pentecost is not referred to as a baptism of fire.




Um we are saved upon faith not water

John 3:14–15 (KJV 1900) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.









Um Cornelius and the gentiles were baptized en the Spirit before water

The Samaritans in Acts 8 had water but not the Spirit

UM the bible never speaks of immersion into water

try proving otherwise

@Doug Brents is correct on the "FIRE" of the Holy Spirit.


"When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them." Acts 2:1-3

 

[mailmandan]

What God said elsewhere does not negate what He said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 etc., but it does qualify it.

It does not qualify it for the shoehorn.

They are complete statements as much as Mark 15:26 is a complete statement. They give what information was needed at that place in Scripture, but they do not give all the details that are included elsewhere in Scripture.

So, incomplete statements. Got it.

There is no distortion, patching together, or eisegesis in any of what I have said. I have properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture, not starting from a preconception, but letting Scripture lead me to the conclusions based upon what all of Scripture says about salvation.

That is absolutely false. You let your preconceived beliefs lead you to what YOU want Scripture to say.

John 3:5

What does it mean to believe?

John 3:5 does not mention baptism. More eisegesis on your part. Properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture would have led you to (John 4:10,14; 7:37-39).

Nothing in the root meaning of "believe" carries any concept of works. If you believe in/have faith iin Jesus Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief results in actions/fruit appropriate to the belief (to one degree or the other/all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful - Matthew 13:23) - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was also confused about this (just as you are now) and I basically defined belief/faith "as" obedience/works just as all works-salvationists do and there is a reason for that. (1 Corinthians 2:14)