Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
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@DavidTree
Forced to believe? The truth is this: Man by nature is, according to God's testimony of truth:
1) Dead in sins and trespasses. It takes no less than the very power of God that raised up Jesus from the dead to quicken our dead spirits by creating in us a new man, that gladly submits to the called of God, to believe and follow Jesus' faith/teachings, etc.
Man, is dead in sins by nature, the SAME POWER that raised our Lord form the dead MUST BE USE to raised an elect sinner to life in Jesus Christ! When Adam sinned he lost all power to do spiritual acts pleasing unto God. He did much more than stump his little toes! His will became IN BONDAGE to sin and his new master, the devil himself, and the lust of his father he will do. His flesh at once became at enmity against God.
2) A man born of the Spirit of God, again will gladly come and submits. Examples of this in the word of God:
Luke 19:5,6
"And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully."
Yes, it is true the Spirit of God MUST draw us, but all who receives the inward call of God come forth and follow the word of God, according to the light that has been granted unto them. You said:
Also you said: "to those who believe by the faith that also is GIVEN."
While I would agree, but would word it a little different, @civic and @Jim and most others here would not agree with this statement. Most truly believe just the opposite, that faith comes by the power of man's fallen nature/will that he is born with. They teach man is a free will moral person, per AI:
Good morning David,
Forced to believe? The truth is this: Man by nature is, according to God's testimony of truth:
1) Dead in sins and trespasses. It takes no less than the very power of God that raised up Jesus from the dead to quicken our dead spirits by creating in us a new man, that gladly submits to the called of God, to believe and follow Jesus' faith/teachings, etc.
Ephesians 1:19,20
“And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,”Man, is dead in sins by nature, the SAME POWER that raised our Lord form the dead MUST BE USE to raised an elect sinner to life in Jesus Christ! When Adam sinned he lost all power to do spiritual acts pleasing unto God. He did much more than stump his little toes! His will became IN BONDAGE to sin and his new master, the devil himself, and the lust of his father he will do. His flesh at once became at enmity against God.
2) A man born of the Spirit of God, again will gladly come and submits. Examples of this in the word of God:
John 1:37
“And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.”Luke 19:5,6
"And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house. And he made haste, and came down, and received him joyfully."
Acts 9:6
“And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.”Matthew 13:20
“But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;”Yes, it is true the Spirit of God MUST draw us, but all who receives the inward call of God come forth and follow the word of God, according to the light that has been granted unto them. You said:
Brother, this is incorrect. The truth of the word of God is............. regeneration is an act of pure mercy toward the sinner so that they "CAN BELIEVE" . But not until then, for all they have is their fleshly nature wherein dwells no good thing, no, not one. Romans 3:10-18.
Also you said: "to those who believe by the faith that also is GIVEN."
While I would agree, but would word it a little different, @civic and @Jim and most others here would not agree with this statement. Most truly believe just the opposite, that faith comes by the power of man's fallen nature/will that he is born with. They teach man is a free will moral person, per AI:
And we would add: to do SPIRITUAL ACTS PLEASING TO GOD, but we know all that this is false according to God's very own testimony of man by nature.
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Um, no one is regenerated, born of God, made alive, his children, indwelt by the Spirit until they believe.
John 1:12–13 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of a husband, but of God.
Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Galatians 3:2 (LEB) — 2 I want only to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ephesians 1:13 (LEB) — 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
John 7:38–39 (LEB) — 38 the one who believes in me. Just as the scripture said, ‘Out of his belly will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 (Now he said this concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were about to receive. For the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)
Galatians 3:14 (LEB) — 14 in order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:26 (LEB) — 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,
Acts 15:7–9 (LEB) — 7 And after there was much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Men and brothers, you know that in the early days God chose among you through my mouth that the Gentiles should hear the message of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he also did to us. 9 And he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
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That is a big AMEN!!
Selah
Active Member
Absolutely!
That’s why our Father justified (gave them eternal life) from before the foundation of the world—because they believed. HalleluYAH.
Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV) 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
s e l a h
@TomL
I do not not have extra time posting in this thread at the moment, maybe later in a day or two. RB
You are absolutely correct. So many, particularly those aligned with Reformed Theology, refuse to see the connection between "those who love God" in verse 28 to those "whom He foreknew" in verse 29. And who are "those who love God"? They are the ones who believe in God. Thus, it is those who love God, i.e., those who believe in God, who are predestined, called, justified and glorified.
@Tom
But, I try hard not to limit myself speaking on only one truth, since there are many doctrines in the scriptures that needs to be discuss, and studied.
Greetings Tom, trust me, it will be no problem addressing scriptures concerning this subject, one of my favorites.
But, I try hard not to limit myself speaking on only one truth, since there are many doctrines in the scriptures that needs to be discuss, and studied.
atpollard
Active Member
Just an observation, but the first verse in your list BEGINS with receiving God as a prerequisite or co-requisite for “believe in his name” … which is typically the point of those arguing against human initiated salvation and for God initiated salvation.
If the event is instantaneous, then the latter part (paraphrase: ‘born not of man, but of God’) applies to all parts of the rebirth - received, believed, became children of God. That only leaves an imaginary “Ordo Salutis” (order of salvation) as a “logic construct” rather than anything that exists in reality.
atpollard
Active Member
Why have you ignored EVERYTHING that GOD did in those verses?
Here it is color coded for MAN DID and GOD DID (verbs underlined).
Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV) 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Who is really refusing to see the connections since “those who love God” are also “those who are called according to His purpose” and the “whom/these” of all the rest?
A man is saved by the time he believes. There is no gap. God knows when a person believes and saves simultaneously. There is no such thing as faith without salvation. And salvation means he has faith. But faith is a condition.
Hardly as there is a logical order beginning with faith.
John 1:12 (LEB) — 12 But as many as received him—to those who believe in his name—he gave to them authority to become children of God,
Receiving Christ here is believing in his name
believing in his name precedes regeneration, spiritual life, becoming a child of God
12. To as many as received him. The great mass; the people; the scribes and Pharisees rejected him. A few in his lifetime received him, and many more after his death. To receive him, here, means to believe on him. This is expressed at the end of the verse.
Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Luke & John (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 178–179.
John divides the world into two groups—those who reject and those who accept. In verse 12 God gives those who accept and believe a new status and authority: “Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” Receiving and believing are the antithesis of “not knowing/receiving” and are virtual synonyms, with “believe” another key term in John, occurring ninety-eight times versus a total of thirty-four in the Synoptic Gospels and fifty-four in all of Paul’s writings. It is always a verb, stressing the dynamic process of faith-decision. This belief is “in his name,” meaning the full reality and person behind “the Word.” To believe is to immerse one’s self in all that is Jesus as the Word of God.
Grant R. Osborne, John: Verse by Verse (ed. Jeffrey Reimer et al.; Osborne New Testament Commentaries; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2018), 32.
e. take up, receive—α. τινὰ someone εἰς into (Wsd 8:18) lit. εἰς τὸ πλοῖον take someone (up) into the boat J 6:21. εἰς οἰκίαν receive someone into one’s house 2J 10. εἰς τὰ ἴδια into his own home J 19:27. Receive someone in the sense of recognizing his authority J 1:12; 5:43a, b; 13:20a, b, c, d.—οἱ ὑπηρέται ῥαπίσμασιν αὐτὸν ἔλαβον Mk 14:65 does not mean ‘the servants took him into custody with blows’ (BWeiss, al.), but is a colloquialism (Bl-D. §198, 3 app. αὐτὸν κονδύλοις ἔλαβεν; Act. Jo. 90) the servants treated him to blows (cf. Moffatt), or even ‘got’ him w. blows (perh. a Latinism; Cicero, Tusc. 2, 14, 34 verberibus accipere. Bl-D. §5, 3b; cf. Rob. 530f); the v.l. ἔβαλον is the result of failure to recognize this rare usage.
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Greetings. But I must say I strongly believe there is no way you can make all the verses posted consistent with your theology
Selah
Active Member
Every child of God, those who were chosen before the foundation of the world because they believed in Jesus then, will also choose to believe in Jesus Christ in this time of amazing grace.
2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 (NKJV) 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
s e l a h
2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 (NKJV) 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle. 16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.
s e l a h
No, it seems he was talking about Gal 3:22
A.) "But the Scripture has confined all under sin,
B.) that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ
C.) might be given to those who believe."
Galatians 3:22 (NIV) — 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
atpollard
Active Member
1 Corinthians 2:14 [ESV] 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
How will the natural person overcome this handicap and “believe” that which “is folly to him, and he is not able to understand” without GOD acting first? As in …
Ephesians 2:1-9 [ESV]
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
There is a process, but God is the author of the process from first to last … from opening Lydia’s heart to listen to the final glorification of those sealed with His Holy Spirit.
Um Paul is speaking to the Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 3:1–4 (LEB) — 1 And I, brothers, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual people, but as to fleshly people, as to infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk to drink, not solid food, for you were not yet able to eat it. But now you are still not able, 3 for you are still fleshly. For where there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and do you not live like unregenerate people? 4 For whenever anyone says, “I am with Paul,” and another, “I am with Apollos,” are you not merely human?
They were of a fleshly, unregenerate nature, but they had believed the gospel.
Calvinists invariably draw the inference that they cannot believe the gospel even though the passages never mention the gospel. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. In this verse, the Calvinists find the concept directly taught that unsaved man (the "natural man") is not able to receive "the things of the Spirit of God," namely the gospel. But as we shall see, the entirety of 1 Corinthians 2 has nothing whatever to do with total depravity. Instead of addressing total depravity, Paul is making an argument about the current spiritual condition of his Christian audience that is reflected in their divisions and strife. Paul is speaking to the saved people in the church of Corinth about his desire to teach them the deeper things of God. We can summarize Paul's argument in 2:1 through 3:3 as follows: (1) when Paul came to Corinth, he did not speak in words of human wisdom, but simply preached the gospel and demonstrated the power of God (2:1-5); (2) but Paul does teach a type of wisdom to mature believers (2:6-8); (3) this wisdom was received by direct revelation from the Spirit and could not be obtained in any other way (2:9-16); (4) this wisdom of God cannot be understood by a natural person because it involves deep spiritual matters (2:13-15); and (5) because the Corinthians are carnal, Paul cannot yet teach them this wisdom (3:1-3). Paul is comparing the capacity of the Corinthian believers for the deeper things of God with the limitations faced by a natural or unsaved man. The gospel is not even in view. It is the meat of the Word that Paul is concerned about so that he can move them on to maturity. Paul says this in the first two verses of the chapter: "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." Paul did not come to them with man's wisdom but with the gospel and "a demonstration of the Spirit and of power." (1 Corinthians 2:4) But even though Paul did not come to Corinth in "excellency of speech or of wisdom" he does teach a different type of wisdom to mature or "perfect" believers: "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought." (1 Corinthians 2:8) Paul explains why the wisdom he speaks about is directed to the mature believers. This was a hidden wisdom (1 Corinthians 2:9) that could not be naturally deduced, but only received by direct revelation from God. Paul states: 1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. Natural observation will not allow us to learn God's wisdom ("eye hath not seen"), neither can it be learned from men ("nor ear heard"), nor can we deduce God's wisdom from our own minds ("neither have entered into the heart of man"). Instead of being naturally deduced, this knowledge was revealed "unto us by his Spirit." This is not just another wisdom in the arena of ideas, but indeed, "the deep things of God." It is important to notice that the "us" in verse 10 is the same as the "we" in verse 8, namely a reference to Paul and probably the other apostles, not all believers. Paul confirms again in 2:11 that only the Spirit of God knows the deep things of God: "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." Then Paul says of himself and the select others to whom God made special revelation: "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." (1 Corinthians 2:12) The common misinterpretations of chapter 2 arise from taking the "us" and "we" to indicate Christians generally rather than Paul and the other apostles, individuals specially selected by God for the purpose of revealing His wisdom by special revelation. Paul is saying that he received direct revelation from God, much as he also said in Galatians 1, and as Jesus promised to the apostles in John 16:13. Paul continues in 2:13 and explains that he is about the business of teaching what was revealed to him by God's Spirit: "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." We must remember at this point how Paul started off. He spoke of his first and primary mission of preaching the gospel and not "excellency of speech or of wisdom," but then made a contrast and explained that there is a type of wisdom that he teaches to perfect or mature believers, namely "the deep things of God." This wisdom that he teaches to the mature believers was received by direct revelation from God. And it is this wisdom that he teaches to mature believers that is being referred to in 2:13 when Paul says "which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth." Where Paul is heading is that just as this wisdom could not be naturally deduced, but only received by direct revelation from God, it can only be taught to spiritually mature people, for it is wisdom "which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." This brings us to the Calvinist stronghold, 1 Corinthians 2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This verse begins with "but," indicating that it is in contrast to the prior statements Paul made about the source of his teachings and his statement that he teaches certain things to mature believers. The "deep things of God" cannot be understood by the natural man because they are spiritual matters, but Paul is not speaking about the gospel here. We must remember that Paul is writing to a church made up of people who have already professed faith in the gospel. There is no need for Paul to address whether or not they have the capacity to believe the gospel because they already have. What they have not done is matured as believers, and that is the issue he is speaking to, as he will explicitly state in the opening verses of chapter 3. Ignoring that contextually it is doctrine fit for mature believers and not the gospel that Paul has in mind, Calvinists extricate the phrase "for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." They insist that the gospel is foolishness to the unsaved person in the sense that he hears it but cannot comprehend it. However, it is because they are "natural" that the ramifications of God's deeper truths are lost on them, and in that sense they cannot "know them." Since it is the deeper things of God in view here, and not the gospel, this does not mean that the natural man cannot become a believer by faith and, as he matures, come to know these deeper truths Paul wants to teach the Corinthians. As we will see in chapter 3, the saved but immature and carnal believers in Corinth face the same limitations as the unsaved person when it comes to grasping the ramifications of the deep things of God for their lives, and that is Paul's whole point in teaching what he does in chapter 2. What we have in chapter 2 is Paul contrasting the natural man with the mature believer. But of the spiritual or mature believer, he says they "judgeth all things." (1 Corinthians 2:15) The "all things" refers to the content of Paul's teaching that he received by direct revelation. The mature person has the ability to evaluate these things and understand the ramifications for their lives. Paul concludes:
Your problem is you have been saved by faith
Salvation (this, it) is not the results of works
And that not of yourselves. That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered that—τοῦτο—is in the neuter gender, and the word faith—πίστις—is in the feminine. The word “that,” therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to the salvation by grace of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield1
1 Albert Barnes, Notes on the New Testament: Ephesians, Philippians & Colossians (ed. Robert Frew; London: Blackie & Son, 1884–1885), 42.
Not even Calvin accepts your theology here
But they commonly misintepret this text, and restrict the word ‘gift’ to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating his earlier statement in other words. He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God … " (from, Calvin’s Commentaries 4:145
In the Bible there is no clear and dogmatic statement that saving faith is a gift of God. On the other hand, the Bible clearly states the way in which faith is obtained: Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Rom. 10:17). The Scriptures speak of saving faith as thy faith (Luke 7:50), his faith (Rom. 4:5) and their faith (Matt. 9:2); but never as the faith of God.
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