civic
Active Member
I started a new thread on the Eternal Son in the Christology section.
I’ll tag those who are discussing it here in this thread over there and jet this one get back on topic
Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
I’ll tag those who are discussing it here in this thread over there and jet this one get back on topic
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
I figured you would..I started a new thread on the Eternal Son in the Christology section.
I’ll tag those who are discussing it here in this thread over there and jet this one get back on topic
its easy to get off track and forget where we are.Redemption
Active Member
It should not matter. God said He was begotten so that made Him the Son
If you wanted to be assured of impressing someone, or many people of the fact that He was the Son of the Father and not
the offspring of Joseph He kept reassuring those who either had not heard or need to be reaffirmed. I know you will counter that.
Do you thoink that if He had said... Look, this is the way it is. My Father who is in heaven sent me to earth, but I was a different person then.
How fast to the looney bin would he have been sent.
The very moment he had his bottom smacked and breath His first gulp of air he was the Son, and God was His Father.
So when He said He was the one sent by the Father from Heaven that was accurate, But when the Trinity did what they had to do to make the Word into a flesh and blood mortal... that is when God sent Him from heaven.
How many people do you think would have understood the fact that the Trinity was in play to get the mortal here?
Are you aware of it because it is so.
Do you think any one of the disciples would have known or understood?
I think when Jesus told Nick in John 3:12 "“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" That was possibly one of the most profoundly true statement in the 66 books.
You cannot answer either by themsleves. For I believe that until God's plan was in the works, there would have been no
need of a savior. After that, there was and enter Jesus.
Was the Word ever the Savior?
I do not know how to answer that. I think that ... if I can say this as a heretical idea... adding to my list... I believe that the savior attributes were given to the Word, that got transferred into flesh and blood Jesus.
But that is only my off the cuff idea....
We know God polanned to get "the Savior" for those who would ultimately have Faith in that one... but how many people, other then those in Jesus' inner circle ever heard of the Word. It was not common talk.
What I see, maybe wishfully is that you are slowly coming around.
Redemption
Active Member
Do you understand a different meaning between salvation and saved?
New International Version
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
New Living Translation
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
English Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Berean Standard Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
King James Bible
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
New King James Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
New American Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASB 1995
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
NASB 1977
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Legacy Standard Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Amplified Bible
For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; NOTE: [salvation] IS the gift.
Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
American Standard Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Contemporary English Version
You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own.
English Revised Version
for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
.........................Again, saved is a gift from God
International Standard Version
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God
NET Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;
New Heart English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Webster's Bible Translation
For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
Majority Text Translations
Majority Standard Bible
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,
World English Bible
for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
for by grace you are saved, through faith, and this [is] not of yourselves—[it is] the gift of God,
Berean Literal Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Young's Literal Translation
for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
Smith's Literal Translation
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and this not of you: the gift of God:
Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
Catholic Public Domain Version
For by grace, you have been saved through faith. And this is not of yourselves, for it is a gift of God.
New American Bible
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
New Revised Standard Version
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—
Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
For it is by grace that you are saved through faith; not of your doing: it is the gift of God:
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,
NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
For by grace you have been saved through the faith; and this matter is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:
Godbey New Testament
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Haweis New Testament
For by grace ye are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God:
Mace New Testament
for by grace are ye saved, thro' faith (and that not from us:
Weymouth New Testament
For it is by grace that you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is God's gift, and is not on the ground of merit--
Worrell New Testament
For by grace ye have been saved through faith: and this, not of yourselves, it is the gift of God:
Worsley New Testament
For by grace ye are saved, through faith: and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God: not by works, that no one may boast:
atpollard
Active Member
The OP stated:
Thus building his proof on the "nominative case" of the word "salvation" ... only the word salvation (noun) does not appear in Ephesians 2:8 ... the word "saved" (adjective) does.
The GENDER of "saved" disagrees with the gender of "gift" in Ephesians 2:8 ... but that cannot be discussed when the words have been changed to "salvation" (which does not appear).
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civic
Active Member
See Roberston the Greek Scholar below,
For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.
atpollard
Active Member
I revised the post to be more specific about why I posted what I posted, since I really DON'T want to argue the minutiae of Greek Grammar. I happen to agree that the whole thing is the "GIFT" ... "by grace you have been saved through faith" ... I am of the opinion that my "Free Will" brothers place too little emphasis on the "THIS not of yourself" portion of the passage. The WHOLE SHEBANG is a gift from God.
- God saves.
- God gives a measure of faith.
- God extends his grace (showing mercy on whom he will show mercy).
(the gift of God, not of yourself)
Poppycock, it does not have to the meaning is clear.
Huh?
The GENDER of "saved" disagrees with the gender of "gift" in Ephesians 2:8?
What in the world would gender need to be considered for the meaning of a verse to be conveyed?
Is not the talk about how the verse affect those speaking English?
atpollard
Active Member
Yup.
TR for all the KJV fans ... 2:8 τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
τῇ [g3588]
γὰρ [g1063] = For
χάριτί [g5485] = by grace = (Noun - Dative Singular Feminine)
ἐστε [g2075] = are ye
σεσῳσμένοι[g4982] = saved = (Verb - Perfect Passive Participle - Nominative Plural Masculine)
διὰ [g1223] = through
τῆς [g3588]
πίστεως [g4102] = faith; = (Noun - Genitive Singular Feminine)
... and so on to the last word ...
δῶρον [g1435] = gift = (Noun - Nominative Singular Neuter)
The fact that "gift" and "saved" (even if called 'salvation') are both "nominative" case was presented as proof that "salvation is the gift" ... but it ignores the fact that the 'gender' does not match [GIFT is "neuter" and SAVED is "masculine"].
I did not create the rules of Greek grammar ... I don't even particularly like them ... but they do exist. Paul is saying MORE than "God gave you salvation" in that sentence.
DavidTree
Active Member
Please read again, carefully, the scriptures you posted = Hebrews and Colossians
civic
Active Member
The Son created all things
The passages say it was the Son.
DavidTree
Active Member
The scriptures you have correctly posted are tying together the Word that was God with the Incarnation.The Son created all things
the Word became flesh = therefore it is correct to attribute to JESUS the CHRIST all things pertaining to the WORD
before creation and before His Incarnation
imho = Therefore, the scriptures are not declaring a Eternal SON but that of the Eternal Word who became JESUS CHRIST
Every aspect of His Divinity was restored to fullness after His Resurrection and Ascension to the FATHER = John 17:1-5
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the Glory which I had with You before the world was.
Now that Genesis 3:15 has been FULFILLED the scriptures conclude with the SON of GOD = LORD Jesus Christ
Revelation is the KEY
to SEE the KING
who set us FREE
HE Returns with the angels
Saints all following as well
Time to Wrap up the devil
and cast him into Hell
KING of Kings and LORD of Lords
no other God can we afford
to Save us from the 2nd Death
Our knees and heart must Bow
Not tomorrow but NOW
Listen for His Voice
and you will make the Right Choice
synergy
Active Member
(Eph 2:8) τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, Θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον·
The question is what is the τοῦτο pronoun pointing to? The Gender of τοῦτο is neuter. As you pointed out χάριτί and πίστεως are feminine and σεσῳσμένοι is a verb so they're all disqualified individually. Therefore, the pronoun τοῦτο applies to the entire phrase "for by grace you have been saved through faith". That is the gift.
atpollard
Active Member
Yup!
God gives (GIFT) not merely the WHAT (saved/salvation) but God also gives (GIFT) the HOW (by grace through faith) … and all of it “saved by grace through faith” (if I may be permitted to rearrange the word order) is “not of ourselves”.
Adds new emphasis to “JESUS SAVES!”
civic
Active Member
Not faith to an unbeliever. Can you find me a passage where faith is given to an unbeliever?
Thanks !
atpollard
Active Member
Of course not, when God gives them faith, they are a believer.
(What about Ephesians 2:8?) [ROFL]
@civic
Words cannot be spoken any plainer than what we see here in Ephesians 2:8 ~one does not need to be learned in any language other than the one he knows since birth, for God has persevered his word in our own language for us to know the truth, which truth sets men free from those who spend their life rejecting truths by using different means, one of course, is thinking they must know the originals before they cannot know if what they see clearly is the truth or not.
The grace of God, "secured" our free gift of eternal life for each and every child of grace, through their surety, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God sent to be a propitiation for our sin, by having lived a perfect life of life of obedience to the law of God on our behalf, and it is the life of faith that he lived that not of ourselves but HIS faith and obedience given to us freely by grace alone, not of our works.
As I have said many times, and will said it again, since there's no new message on Ephesians 2:8 than this one main message:
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is "not" the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which alone secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
One does not need to know the so-called Greek, but the bibles in their hands, seeking God's truth from the word he has so graciously given to us all in our own tongue. May the Lord alone be praise, and all of the children of God said: Amen and Amen.
So civic, the power to believe is freely given to us, (by the new man created in us at regeneration) on the behalf of our surety, a truth you fighting against, a battle you will surely lose, if you continue to do so, which our desire for you is that you will not, seeing your zeal for God's word, may the Lord be merciful to all of us, guiding each and every person who truly seek him first and foremost into His truth, by understanding such scriptures as this one, which again, is so clearly worded:
Actually civic, if folk carefully listen to John in 1:12,13 he said the same thing Paul said in Philippians 1:28,29, listen to John carefully:
civic, the power to believe came not by your natural flesh, where no good thing dwells, but from the new man within us, that God's mighty power created when he birth us into his family by grace alone on the behalf of our surety's redemption work for each and every child of grace. John 1:13 is a commentary given by John to us concerning verse 12!
civic, our spiritual birth is no different than Isaac's natural birth, a miracle performed by two immutable acts of God, His oath and promises to Abraham, that was a beautiful picture on our spiritual birth, could have never have happened apart from the power of God, his oath, and promises that he would give Abraham a son, just as he has given to his Son a spiritual seed brought about by the same two immutable acts of God. Consider:
Listen again, (if you can, God being your helper and teacher) to Paul, as if he was standing before you preaching from Ephesians 2:8 which we read:
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”Words cannot be spoken any plainer than what we see here in Ephesians 2:8 ~one does not need to be learned in any language other than the one he knows since birth, for God has persevered his word in our own language for us to know the truth, which truth sets men free from those who spend their life rejecting truths by using different means, one of course, is thinking they must know the originals before they cannot know if what they see clearly is the truth or not.
The grace of God, "secured" our free gift of eternal life for each and every child of grace, through their surety, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God sent to be a propitiation for our sin, by having lived a perfect life of life of obedience to the law of God on our behalf, and it is the life of faith that he lived that not of ourselves but HIS faith and obedience given to us freely by grace alone, not of our works.
As I have said many times, and will said it again, since there's no new message on Ephesians 2:8 than this one main message:
In Ephesians 2:8 we have a classic example of an metonymy. The only faith that saves us legally is the faith of Christ, for no man can have faith in God, the faith that meets the requirement of a Royal law, a faith that is produce by perfect obedience to its laws! Jesus Christ alone had the faith that honoured God's law in all points, from conception, to death, in thoughts, words, and deeds ~ and this faith alone is the means of man's free justification. This faith is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God secured for God's elect by our surety, Jesus Christ. This faith is given to us in regeneration when the Spirit of God creates a new man within us after the image of his Son, Jesus Christ.
When a man hears and believes, it is "not" the old man (for that is impossible) but his new man that is a creative work in God's elect by the almighty power of God~this birth happens to a child of God sometimes after conception and before death, and is evidenced by faith and obedience to the word of God. Two prime examples of this is John the the Baptist and the thief on the cross.
I could spend more time proving the metonymy in Ephesians 2:8 by the context in just before verse 8, in verses: 4-6..."But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
We were IN CHRIST from all eternity, even while he lived in this world and in his death and resurrection, which alone secured our redemption for us. What he did, it was as though we did it, what happen to Christ happened to us legally speaking two thousand years ago.
One does not need to know the so-called Greek, but the bibles in their hands, seeking God's truth from the word he has so graciously given to us all in our own tongue. May the Lord alone be praise, and all of the children of God said: Amen and Amen.
So civic, the power to believe is freely given to us, (by the new man created in us at regeneration) on the behalf of our surety, a truth you fighting against, a battle you will surely lose, if you continue to do so, which our desire for you is that you will not, seeing your zeal for God's word, may the Lord be merciful to all of us, guiding each and every person who truly seek him first and foremost into His truth, by understanding such scriptures as this one, which again, is so clearly worded:
Philippians 1:28,29
“And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;”Actually civic, if folk carefully listen to John in 1:12,13 he said the same thing Paul said in Philippians 1:28,29, listen to John carefully:
John 1:12
“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”civic, the power to believe came not by your natural flesh, where no good thing dwells, but from the new man within us, that God's mighty power created when he birth us into his family by grace alone on the behalf of our surety's redemption work for each and every child of grace. John 1:13 is a commentary given by John to us concerning verse 12!
civic, our spiritual birth is no different than Isaac's natural birth, a miracle performed by two immutable acts of God, His oath and promises to Abraham, that was a beautiful picture on our spiritual birth, could have never have happened apart from the power of God, his oath, and promises that he would give Abraham a son, just as he has given to his Son a spiritual seed brought about by the same two immutable acts of God. Consider:
We are the children of God's promises, that he made in the New Covenant of pure grace, apart from all works of the flesh where man may have an active part in; the works of God's law was perfectly fulfilled by one man, who stood as a surety for every single person given to him of God to redeem from the curse of the law which we all had broken in Adam, which is why the second covenant was put into place so that some would be saved and inherit eternal life.
civic
Active Member
As a former calvinist I too use to rip this verse from its context just like you just did.
1- Paul is talking to those already who are born again believers in Philippi.
2- Believers in this passage are the ones who are granted faith, not unbelievers.
3- Those same ones God gives faith to are the same ones that faith is needed for in their suffering which God also grants.
Does God grant unbelievers faith to "suffer for Christs sake " ?
What a mess is made from this passage to support a doctrine that does not exist in Scripture. Jesus and the Apostles teach faith is mans responsibility, not Gods.
hope this helps !!!
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