Ephesians 2:8 salvation is the gift
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
civic
Active Member
Not 1 mention of the Son in John 17:1,5 which I referenced ?
Really ?
John 17:1
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
You are right there is not 1 mention but more than 1.
And what Glory is the Son talking about ?
The Glory that the Son shared together with the Father before the world existed. See John 17:5,John 17:24
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
So lets with an open mind, without presuppositions read what the Bible says about the Son and His pre existence as the Son in Scripture. Here are many passages which confirm He is the Eternal Son who created all things and was together with the Father before creation as the Son.
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.
Below we read a minimum of 24 passages about the Sons preexistence as the Son before the Incarnation. And there are many more passages.
How many is enough to believe ?
1, 5, 12, 24,50, 100 ?
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory
These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
As does Paul below:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.
In Hebrews below :
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end
John tells us the same in his epistle below:
1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:10
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
In the OT
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god
Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?
hope this helps !!!
The Sons pre existence in John’s gospel. There are dozens of other scriptures in other places verifying the Eternal existence of the Son.
Below we read a minimum of 24 passages about the Sons preexistence as the Son before the Incarnation. And there are many more passages.
How many is enough to believe ?
1, 5, 12, 24,50, 100 ?
John 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory
These verses in John’s prologue reveal the pre existence of the Eternal Word/Son who was God and became flesh. He was the Creator of all things. Nothing came into existence apart from Him. He is before everything that has a beginning.
John 1:15
15 John bore witness of Him, and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'"
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven — the Son of Man.
Again we see the pre existence of the Son and where He declares that He came from heaven to earth.
John 3:17
"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
This verse shows the Son was sent from heaven by the Father to the earth.
John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Human beings come into existence when they are born into this world, but we surely do not come from Heaven.
John 8:23
"You are from beneath I Am from above, you are of this world I Am not of this world"
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am."
Here we see that Jesus lets the Pharisees know that He existed as a person before Abraham was born. Once again we see Jesus claiming to be the Eternal God.
John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 17:1, 5
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,
And now, Father, glorify Me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Here we see the Son declared that He shared the same Glory together with the Father prior to creation. This passage makes Him equal with the Father as the Eternal God. Below again we see His pre existence and in 17:25 Jesus again states the Father sent the Son into the world
John 17:24
"Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world.
As does Paul below:
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh,
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, / to redeem those under the law, that we might receive our adoption as sons.
In Hebrews below :
Hebrews 1:8-12
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9;You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end
John tells us the same in his epistle below:
1 John 4:9
This is how God’s love was revealed among us: God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him.
1 John 4:10
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.
In the OT
Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like the son of god
Psalm 2:12
Kiss his son, or he will be angry and your way will lead to your destruction, for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended into heaven and descended?Who has gathered the wind in His fists?Who has wrapped the waters in His garment?Who has established all the ends of the earth?What is His name or His son’s name?
hope this helps !!!
Last edited:
Redemption
Active Member
Not 1 mention of the Son in John 17:1,5 which I referenced ?
Really ?
John 17:1
“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
You are right there is not 1 mention but more than 1.
And what Glory is the Son talking about ?
Maybe Jesus made Eagle Scout.
17:24
“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
You do realize that this very statement "You loved Me before the foundation of the world." does not sound like one of the 3 in the Trinity. The Trinity was always, therefore... this is an odd statement.
@civic. No.
There is nothing in these verses that say that originally Jesus/Word was God's Son before time.
They do say that Jesus/Word were before time but not as His son.
Read again and tell me what I am missing
Where can you get Son from
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
Do you think if Jesus was not God's Son from eternity past then he could never be His son? ... That is not so.
Jesus/Word always has been Jesus called Himself I am. Before Abraham was, I am. But there was no reference to his father here.
If there was no Mary, or other virgin, Jesus would not have been born as a Son, with a Father .
The miracle is that God devised a plan that allowed Him to save us, if we, through our free will, would have faith and belief in His Son. The one who until Mary gave birth was the Word, but not the Son.
Once Jesus came into being... 2000 or so years ago... then all focus has been on Him and rightfully so. D|For Jesus to cal God
Father is proper for 2000 or so years ago that is exactly what happened... God became His Father. Before that the Word was not God's Son.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Where did we ever read that the Word was the Son or that God was the Words Father.
They were all together all 3 of them from time before time... then the plan had to happen.... and happen it did.
I just can't wait for the final outcome.
Just one of your verses for now...
The Word did not have to be God's Son from time unmeasurable in the past because they seemed to be doing pretty good before man threw the moneywrench into things.
Then the plan moved forward and the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit was impregnated into Mary (I dont know and I dont care) and became the first begotten (correct usage of the word) Son of God.... our Heavenly Father and now no matter what the Father Son has been established forever more.... but it was not from a very long time ago in a Galaxy far away. The Son , our Savior, came into being around 2000 years ago.
Nopw, not to sound like another poster here but
I'll be back later
civic
Active Member
The million dollar questionMaybe Jesus made Eagle Scout.
17:24
“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
You do realize that this very statement "You loved Me before the foundation of the world." does not sound like one of the 3 in the Trinity. The Trinity was always, therefore... this is an odd statement.
@civic. No.
There is nothing in these verses that say that originally Jesus/Word was God's Son before time.
They do say that Jesus/Word were before time but not as His son.
Read again and tell me what I am missing
Where can you get Son from
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
Do you think if Jesus was not God's Son from eternity past then he could never be His son? ... That is not so.
Jesus/Word always has been Jesus called Himself I am. Before Abraham was, I am. But there was no reference to his father here.
If there was no Mary, or other virgin, Jesus would not have been born as a Son, with a Father .
The miracle is that God devised a plan that allowed Him to save us, if we, through our free will, would have faith and belief in His Son. The one who until Mary gave birth was the Word, but not the Son.
Once Jesus came into being... 2000 or so years ago... then all focus has been on Him and rightfully so. D|For Jesus to cal God
Father is proper for 2000 or so years ago that is exactly what happened... God became His Father. Before that the Word was not God's Son.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Where did we ever read that the Word was the Son or that God was the Words Father.
They were all together all 3 of them from time before time... then the plan had to happen.... and happen it did.
I just can't wait for the final outcome.
Just one of your verses for now...
The Word did not have to be God's Son from time unmeasurable in the past because they seemed to be doing pretty good before man threw the moneywrench into things.
Then the plan moved forward and the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit was impregnated into Mary (I dont know and I dont care) and became the first begotten (correct usage of the word) Son of God.... our Heavenly Father and now no matter what the Father Son has been established forever more.... but it was not from a very long time ago in a Galaxy far away. The Son , our Savior, came into being around 2000 years ago.
Nopw, not to sound like another poster here but
I'll be back later
Please name the 3 persons of the Trinity , who were They before creation ?
Thanks
civic
Active Member
Your position is not Trinitarian but that of the heresy known in the early church as adoptionism.Maybe Jesus made Eagle Scout.
17:24
“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
You do realize that this very statement "You loved Me before the foundation of the world." does not sound like one of the 3 in the Trinity. The Trinity was always, therefore... this is an odd statement.
@civic. No.
There is nothing in these verses that say that originally Jesus/Word was God's Son before time.
They do say that Jesus/Word were before time but not as His son.
Read again and tell me what I am missing
Where can you get Son from
John 1:30
"This is He on behalf of whom I said, 'After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'
John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is impossible for Christ to be before him unless Jesus pre existed.
Do you think if Jesus was not God's Son from eternity past then he could never be His son? ... That is not so.
Jesus/Word always has been Jesus called Himself I am. Before Abraham was, I am. But there was no reference to his father here.
If there was no Mary, or other virgin, Jesus would not have been born as a Son, with a Father .
The miracle is that God devised a plan that allowed Him to save us, if we, through our free will, would have faith and belief in His Son. The one who until Mary gave birth was the Word, but not the Son.
Once Jesus came into being... 2000 or so years ago... then all focus has been on Him and rightfully so. D|For Jesus to cal God
Father is proper for 2000 or so years ago that is exactly what happened... God became His Father. Before that the Word was not God's Son.
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Where did we ever read that the Word was the Son or that God was the Words Father.
They were all together all 3 of them from time before time... then the plan had to happen.... and happen it did.
I just can't wait for the final outcome.
Just one of your verses for now...
The Word did not have to be God's Son from time unmeasurable in the past because they seemed to be doing pretty good before man threw the moneywrench into things.
Then the plan moved forward and the Word with the help of the Holy Spirit was impregnated into Mary (I dont know and I dont care) and became the first begotten (correct usage of the word) Son of God.... our Heavenly Father and now no matter what the Father Son has been established forever more.... but it was not from a very long time ago in a Galaxy far away. The Son , our Savior, came into being around 2000 years ago.
Nopw, not to sound like another poster here but
I'll be back later
Adoptionism is a theological heresy that posits Jesus was a human who was adopted as God's son, rather than being eternally God the Son by nature. This belief was particularly prominent in two historical periods: the 2nd-3rd centuries and the 8th century in Spain.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
Core Belief:
- Adoptionism suggests that Jesus was born fully human and became the Son of God through a special act of adoption by God, often associated with his baptism or resurrection.
- This contrasts with the orthodox Christian view that Jesus is eternally the Son of God, existing in unity with God the Father.
DavidTree
Active Member
i am unable to find evidence in Scripture of a eternal begotten son.
Genesis begins with Elohim/Plural = Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness = Plural 3x Spoken
Concerning mankind and God's Prophecy to satan that the seed of a woman will crush his head, it would be at this moment toward 'us/man' that Elohim begins (for us) the Truth Doctrine of Immanuel.
@civic
I'm coming back and will consider every verse you have provided to compare them with the overall scriptures.
By the mouth of two, or three witnesses shall every word be established. You do not have even one that can be explained with the scriptures as having to do with Christ's Divinity as the I AM THAT I AM ~ "not one" as having to do with being the only begotten of God from the beginning, and in subordinate to Him "BEFORE" he took on flesh, which did indeed makes him subordinate to God who is a Spirit without flesh.1st Corinthians 15:28 As far as his humanity goes.
Matthew 18:16
“But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.”I'm coming back and will consider every verse you have provided to compare them with the overall scriptures.
Last edited:
civic
Active Member
I have the Son, Father, Holy Spirit, Isaiah , David, Solomon, John , Author of Hebrews just to name a few on my side. Plenty of biblical witnesses on the Eternality of the Father and Son.
hope this helps !!!
DavidTree
Active Member
civic
Active Member
So the eternal God became the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ?
DavidTree
Active Member
We have not been given a single scripture that explains "Elohim" from Eternity
We are given scriptures of Elohim being Eternal and of the many attributes Elohim contains.
The primary concepts given to us of Elohim from Eternity are:
a.) Eternal - no created beginning no end
b.) Creator of all things
c.) Holy , Holy , Holy = 3x = THEY are ECHAD and EQUAL
The Scriptures are Elohim communicating to the created/man.
How can Elohim communicate to a finite created being which has no understanding???
Write a Story Book for created man to read and listen from and learn.
This 'Story Book' began with Oral Proclamation that was passed on until Moses
His Story Book is detailing for man = from his created beginning = we are not privileged to knowledge/info before this
civic
Active Member
Do you agree in hermeneutics that the NT interprets the OT ?
The NT is the OT revealed
The OT is the NT concealed
DavidTree
Active Member
i believe that both the OT & NT define each other
Genesis is the Foundation of all Truth that would follow
Example:
a.) JESUS rebukes satan by "It is written"
b.) JESUS validates Scripture is Truth when He Said: "the scripture cannot be broken" & "Thy word is Truth"
c.) JESUS validates HIMSELF from OT Scripture = Luke 24:25
a,b,c is the OT validating the NT and vice versa
Redemption
Active Member
DavidTree
Active Member
Who says YHWH is the FATHER
Redemption
Active Member
My last on this because you either cannot or will not see what I see.
I see the 2nd person of the Trinity who started out as the Word, and eventually was picked, chosen, or volunteered to come to earth as a human being to straighten out the mess mankind was making of things. He did not lose all of His divine attributes
as were exampled in the Holy Bible but without him as a sacrifice we would still be killing and sacrificing animals.
There is no reason that this Spirit who was chosen or volunteered for the job had to carry the title Son because there is no record the Father was ever called Father pre creation.
If that makes me a heretic.... then Ill be joining the likes of Calvin in eternity.
Vaya con Dios....
Redemption
Active Member
Is not Yahweh God?
Is not the Father God?
I will retract that if I still can.
I could and if you want to retract your post then my reply will be totally gone.
The Trinity is dead.
Free Will is a lie.
The Blue Letter Bible is the truth
Was Jesus Always the Son of God? (Eternal Generation)
There is a question as to whether Jesus was always the eternal Son of God or that He became the Son of God only when He came to earth. This is technically
www.blueletterbible.org
Long live John Calvin.
Happy Trails....
DavidTree
Active Member
Look n SEEIs not Yahweh God?
Is not the Father God?
I will retract that if I still can.
I could and if you want to retract your post then my reply will be totally gone.
The Trinity is dead.
Free Will is a lie.
The Blue Letter Bible is the truth
" The Scriptures, however, seem to teach that Jesus has always been in a subordinate role to God the Father while still being equal in character. While Jesus character is equal to God the Father his role is one of subordination.Was Jesus Always the Son of God? (Eternal Generation)
There is a question as to whether Jesus was always the eternal Son of God or that He became the Son of God only when He came to earth. This is technically
Long live John Calvin.
Happy Trails....
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Similar threads
