Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TomL]

Yes some affirm God is the primary cause of everything including sin, evil while others claim God is the secondary cause. They play the semantics game and that’s where compatibilism comes it trying to explain away determinism. A true 5 point Calvinist must be a hard determinist.

James White, a Calvinist, takes an outlandish and unscriptural view on God's determination of moral evil. He makes a stunning admission that God decreed rape.

James White takes an outlandish view on God decreeing evil.​

kentbrandenburg.com/2023/03/21/james-white-and-his-troublesome-determinis

 

[civic]

James White, a Calvinist, takes an outlandish and unscriptural view on God's determination of moral evil. He makes a stunning admission that God decreed rape.

James White takes an outlandish view on God decreeing evil.​

View attachment 2358
kentbrandenburg.com/2023/03/21/james-white-and-his-troublesome-determinis

Yes if one is being honest about being a determinist they must face the fact of their doctrine which is that God causes all sin and evil as His predetermined plan. Many Calvinists if they are being honest will take Whites position. I have thread where I quote many of them saying it’s Gods will.

This thread shows many of them

Thread 'Does God really determine all evil ?'

Apr 2, 2024

Calvinism is a belief in meticulious divine determinism over every thought, choice and event throughout human history–and according to John Piper this includes every one of your personal, besetting sins (quote below). Just think about the insidious implications of such a view. If a rapist or pedophile were to declare in a courtroom, “God caused me to do it!” we would denouce him as a liar or a lunatic. However when a Calvinist declares more a less the same thing behind their pulpit (substituting “caused” for “decreed” or “determined”), he is extolled as being biblical!


I cannot tell you...

• civic
• Replies: 24
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

• 

 

[civic]

Sounds exactly like the god of paganism , Gnosticism , Greek Philosophy etc

 

[TomL]

Yes if one is being honest about bring a determinist they must face the fact of their doctrine which is that God causes all sin and evil as His predetermined plan. Many Calvinists if they are being honest will take Whites position. I have thread where I quote many of them saying it’s Gods will.

This thread shows many of them

Thread 'Does God really determine all evil ?'

Apr 2, 2024

Calvinism is a belief in meticulious divine determinism over every thought, choice and event throughout human history–and according to John Piper this includes every one of your personal, besetting sins (quote below). Just think about the insidious implications of such a view. If a rapist or pedophile were to declare in a courtroom, “God caused me to do it!” we would denouce him as a liar or a lunatic. However when a Calvinist declares more a less the same thing behind their pulpit (substituting “caused” for “decreed” or “determined”), he is extolled as being biblical!


I cannot tell you...

• civic
• Replies: 24
• Forum: Calvinism vs. Arminianism

• 

Man, it's so hard for me to see an acceptance of such a view.

 

[civic]

Man, it's so hard for me to see an acceptance of such a view.

It is unacceptable !

 

[TomL]

It is unacceptable !

Agreed

 

[atpollard]

The only restriction was taking Jobs life.

You need to reread Job … the story is more complex with several revisions of what Satan was permitted to do (similar to Romans 1 and multiple “God gave them over” events that spiraled to ever greater evil).

 

[civic]

You need to reread Job … the story is more complex with several revisions of what Satan was permitted to do (similar to Romans 1 and multiple “God gave them over” events that spiraled to ever greater evil).

Job 1:12- The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

God confirms what I said was the only restriction placed on Satan

 

[TomL]

You need to reread Job … the story is more complex with several revisions of what Satan was permitted to do (similar to Romans 1 and multiple “God gave them over” events that spiraled to ever greater evil).

Again, were compatibilism true, God would have had to have determined both the intent and acts of Satan.

 

[atpollard]

The only restriction was taking Jobs life.

Job 1:12- The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

God confirms what I said was the only restriction placed on Satan

Does Job 1:12 REALLY confirm what you said? Was the only restriction in Job 1:12 on “taking Job’s life”?

Should you have followed my advice and …

reread Job … the story is more complex with several revisions of what Satan was permitted to do

As in:

• Job 1:9-12 [NLT] 9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.
• Job 2:4-7 [NLT] 4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life." 7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.

Does that not have parallels to Romans 1 where God “gives them over” and each time things become worse?

 

[civic]

Does Job 1:12 REALLY confirm what you said? Was the only restriction in Job 1:12 on “taking Job’s life”?

Should you have followed my advice and …

As in:

• Job 1:9-12 [NLT] 9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.
• Job 2:4-7 [NLT] 4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life." 7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.

Does that not have parallels to Romans 1 where God “gives them over” and each time things become worse?

I don’t see any connection to Romans 1. I think you are reading things into Job that is not there nor implied in Roman’s 1.

JMHO FWIW

 

[atpollard]

JMHO FWIW

Fair enough.

 

[atpollard]

I think you are reading things into Job that is not there

You are wrong on this point:

• Job 1:12 [NLT] 12 "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically."
• Job 2:6 [NLT] 6 "But spare his life."

In Job 1:12, God specifically granted permission for Satan to attack “everything” and specifically denied permission to “harm him” (Job). When God and Satan met again in Job 2, God EXPANDED the boundaries of what Satan was permitted to do by allowing Satan to “harm him” but God still imposed a limit on what Satan was permitted to do by requiring that Satan “spare his life”.

I am reading a restriction on what Satan is permitted and a lifting of restrictions on what Satan was formerly prohibited in Job that is most certainly there!

Feel free to “not see” parallels with God “giving them over” in Romans 1 … that is your right … but Job clearly states what it clearly states in the first two chapters and what God permits and prohibits Satan from doing is the central point of those chapters … it is Satan’s argument for why Job honors God and why Job will curse God.

 

[civic]

You are wrong on this point:

• Job 1:12 [NLT] 12 "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically."
• Job 2:6 [NLT] 6 "But spare his life."

In Job 1:12, God specifically granted permission for Satan to attack “everything” and specifically denied permission to “harm him” (Job). When God and Satan met again in Job 2, God EXPANDED the boundaries of what Satan was permitted to do by allowing Satan to “harm him” but God still imposed a limit on what Satan was permitted to do by requiring that Satan “spare his life”.

I am reading a restriction on what Satan is permitted and a lifting of restrictions on what Satan was formerly prohibited in Job that is most certainly there!

Feel free to “not see” parallels with God “giving them over” in Romans 1 … that is your right … but Job clearly states what it clearly states in the first two chapters and what God permits and prohibits Satan from doing is the central point of those chapters … it is Satan’s argument for why Job honors God and why Job will curse God.

I believe both those verses are saying the same thing meaning he couldn’t take his life

 

[TomL]

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

The first problem is it believers in God who are being drawn unto Jesus.

Those who believe Moses

John 5:46 (LEB) — 46 For if you had believed Moses, you would believe me, for that one wrote about me.

Would believe Christ

Those who had God as their father

John 8:42 (LEB) — 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your father, you would love me, for I have come forth from God and have come. For I have not come from myself, but that one sent me.

Would love Christ

Those desiring the will of God

John 7:17 (LEB) — 17 If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself.

Would believe the teaching of Christ

Those who were God’s

John 17:6 (LEB) — 6 “I have revealed your name to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you have given them to me, and they have kept your word.

would keep God's word

The second problem is the method mentioned in verse 45

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

It is being taught by God

The third problem

It is those who learn from hearing the word who come to Jesus

 

[DavidTree]

1) Do you not see the order of events? They “hear” and the result is they “shall live”. It is not “they shall be made alive” and “then they shall hear.”

2) “Hearing” is not salvation, it is understanding the meaning of what you’re being told, as in “Do you hear me?”

3) It can also be a metaphor for the act of believing. That is the meaning of Jesus.

4) The context of the whole, is about Jesus going about his Father’s work, doing what his Father does. But the focus is on Jesus having authority over both physical and spiritual life, ie, being equal with God!


Doug

How did they hear?

 

[DavidTree]

Does Job 1:12 REALLY confirm what you said? Was the only restriction in Job 1:12 on “taking Job’s life”?

Should you have followed my advice and …

As in:

• Job 1:9-12 [NLT] 9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.
• Job 2:4-7 [NLT] 4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life." 7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot.

Does that not have parallels to Romans 1 where God “gives them over” and each time things become worse?

What "parallel" are you attempting to make/see/compare???

 

[TibiasDad]

How did they hear?

By the Word of God being preached to them and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Doug

 

[DavidTree]

By the Word of God being preached to them and the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Doug

How did those who preached the Word hear???

 

[TibiasDad]

How did those who preached the Word hear???

The same way all hear! By someone preaching to them and the conviction of the Holy Spirit!

Doug