Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TomL]

Irrelevant to my post as I am still not a Determinist, I am a Compatibalist, therefore …

You should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology than worrying so much about MY theological beliefs.

The issue is compatibilism.

A compatibilist is a hard determinist who holds that determinism is compatible with free will.

What Is Compatibilism?
Compatibilism is an attempt to reconcile the theological proposition that every event is causally determined, ordained, and/or decreed by God (i.e., determinism, not to be confused with fatalism)—with the free will of man. Promulgated originally from a philosophical viewpoint by the Greek Stoics and later by numerous philosophers such as Thomas
Hobbes and David Hume, and from a theological viewpoint by theologians such as Augustine of Hippo and John Calvin, the compatibilist concept of free will states that though the free will of man seems irreconcilable with the proposition of determinism, they both do exist and are “compatible” with one another

Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2002–2013).

A compatibilist is someone who believes that the concept that people have free will is compatible with the belief that God determines every thought or deed so that they could not have done other than they do unless God were to otherwise will it.
Why Does God Allow Evil? Compelling Answers for Life’s Toughest Questions

Your view is not quite the same.

 

[TomL]

Which was when???

God first communicated with Adam. He later communicated with Moses, who began writing down communication and events in scripture.

 

[Selah]

Determinism is not about permitting but determining, and it was determined before creation, before the determined existed.

…but Lucifer was not “determined” to be evil. He became evil all by himself.
Ezekiel 28:12-19 (NKJV) 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone [was] your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever.” ’ ”

s e l a h

 

[TomL]

…but Lucifer was not “determined” to be evil. He became evil all by himself.
Ezekiel 28:12-19 (NKJV) 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “You [were] the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone [was] your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created. 14 “You [were] the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You [were] perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you. 18 “You defiled your sanctuaries By the multitude of your iniquities, By the iniquity of your trading; Therefore I brought fire from your midst; It devoured you, And I turned you to ashes upon the earth In the sight of all who saw you. 19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you; You have become a horror, And [shall be] no more forever.” ’ ”

s e l a h

That would be an issue for determinists (even compatibilists) to face.

 

[atpollard]

The issue is compatibilism.

A compatibilist is a hard determinist who holds that determinism is compatible with free will.

[snip]

Your view is not quite the same.

... You are STILL wasting time worrying so much about MY theological beliefs when you should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology.

• Do YOU have any beliefs?
• Does the BIBLE have anything worth hearing on the subject?

I presented MY VIEWS on what THE BIBLE says ... you should try presenting YOUR VIEWS on what the BIBLE says and leave me to be judged by MY MASTER.

"Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval." - Romans 14:4 [NLT]

 

[TomL]

... You are STILL wasting time worrying so much about MY theological beliefs when you should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology.

• Do YOU have any beliefs?
• Does the BIBLE have anything worth hearing on the subject?

I presented MY VIEWS on what THE BIBLE says ... you should try presenting YOUR VIEWS on what the BIBLE says and leave me to be judged by MY MASTER.

"Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval." - Romans 14:4 [NLT]

You are mistaken

It is a true definition of compatibilism, and a disproving of it which is my interest here.

You have not expounded on one


What Is Compatibilism?
Compatibilism is an attempt to reconcile the theological proposition that every event is causally determined, ordained, and/or decreed by God (i.e., determinism, not to be confused with fatalism)—with the free will of man. Promulgated originally from a philosophical viewpoint by the Greek Stoics and later by numerous philosophers such as Thomas
Hobbes and David Hume, and from a theological viewpoint by theologians such as Augustine of Hippo and John Calvin, the compatibilist concept of free will states that though the free will of man seems irreconcilable with the proposition of determinism, they both do exist and are “compatible” with one another

Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2002–2013).

A compatibilist is someone who believes that the concept that people have free will is compatible with the belief that God determines every thought or deed so that they could not have done other than they do unless God were to otherwise will it.
Why Does God Allow Evil? Compelling Answers for Life’s Toughest Questions

What you have stated is contrary to the above definitions.

 

[TibiasDad]

A compatibilist is someone who believes that the concept that people have free will is compatible with the belief that God determines every thought or deed so that they could not have done other than they do unless God were to otherwise will it.

The question is what are our wills free from as well as free towards. If the point of necessity/determining is prior to our choice itself, there is no freedom. Freedom is from any other source of determination that necessitates our actions.

Doug

 

[TomL]

The question is what are our wills free from as well as free towards. If the point of necessity/determining is prior to our choice itself, there is no freedom. Freedom is from any other source of determination that necessitates our actions.

Doug

Our freedom is shown here.

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,

 

[Kampioen]

Irrelevant to my post as I am still not a Determinist, I am a Compatibalist, therefore …

Compatibilism is just determined by the previous domino of a prearranged set. The free will just means your want is determined by the previous domino. It is still unilateral preset predeterminism.

 

[TomL]

Compatibilism is just determined by the previous domino of a prearranged set. The free will just means your want is determined by the previous domino. It is still unilateral preset predeterminism.

Christian compatibilism still holds to determinism.

And God is the determiner of every thought and action.

 

[Kampioen]

I presented MY VIEWS on what THE BIBLE says ... you should try presenting YOUR VIEWS on what the BIBLE says and leave me to be judged by MY MASTER.

According to your view you were already unconditionally judged before you existed. You just have to wait to see what He says.

 

[TomL]

... You are STILL wasting time worrying so much about MY theological beliefs when you should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology.

Again, it is the definition of compatibilism that is in view

• Do YOU have any beliefs?
• Does the BIBLE have anything worth hearing on the subject?

Do not my posts amply show my beliefs?

I presented MY VIEWS on what THE BIBLE says ... you should try presenting YOUR VIEWS on what the BIBLE says and leave me to be judged by MY MASTER.

"Who are you to condemn someone else's servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord's help, they will stand and receive his approval." - Romans 14:4 [NLT]

I have posted far more scriptures that show my beliefs, but I have not condemned you.

 

[civic]

Christian compatibilism still holds to determinism.

And God is the determiner of every thought and action.

Everything was scripted before the foundation of the world and there can be no variance to the plan according to Calvinism. It was all predetermined to occur exactly according to plan which includes sin and evil. All according to Gods perfect will, plan, determinism, predestination etc........

No matter how one tries to slice up the pie its all Gods doing and He is the responsible party.

Its why I reject Calvinism's view of Sovereignty, Predestination, Election, Salvation, Gospel, TULIP etc........

And compatibilism is nothing but soft determinism but its still determinism. They just try and soften their doctrine to make is sound "palatable ". It is still determinism under a different name.

 

[TomL]

Everything was scripted before the foundation of the world and there can be no variance to the plan according to Calvinism. It was all predetermined to occur exactly according to plan which includes sin and evil. All according to Gods perfect will, plan, determinism, predestination etc........

No matter how one tries to slice up the pie its all Gods doing and He is the responsible party.

Its why I reject Calvinism's view of Sovereignty, Predestination, Election, Salvation, Gospel, TULIP etc........

And compatibilism is nothing but soft determinism but its still determinism. They just try and soften their doctrine to make is sound "palatable ". It is still determinism under a different name.

Yep but is it really soft determinism?

God is still determining every thought, action and deed.

 

[civic]

Yep but is it really soft determinism?

God is still determining every thought, action and deed.

Agreed but its the calvinists way to try and swallow the pill of determinsm/fatalism and repackage it as compatibilism. It sounds better as in its compatible.

 

[atpollard]

Compatibilism is just determined by the previous domino of a prearranged set. The free will just means your want is determined by the previous domino. It is still unilateral preset predeterminism.

Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt by:

• God (Hard Determinism)?
• His brothers (Free Will)?
• Both (Compatibalism)?

Genesis 50:20 [NKJV] "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.”

 

[atpollard]

According to your view you were already unconditionally judged before you existed. You just have to wait to see what He says.

Post #507 states “my view”, so where does post #507 state that?

 

[TomL]

Agreed but its the calvinists way to try and swallow the pill of determinsm/fatalism and repackage it as compatibilism. It sounds better as in its compatible.

Agreed. Anything to hold on to the theology.

 

[Kampioen]

Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt by:

• God (Hard Determinism)?
• His brothers (Free Will)?
• Both (Compatibalism)?

Genesis 50:20 [NKJV] "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.”

I would say Both ie Libertarian Compatibilism.

God herded history, the time and place of the right people to get the job done.

 

[TomL]

I would say Both ie Libertarian Compatibilism.

God herded history, the time and place of the right people to get the job done.

And every sinful act ever done was determined by God before the particular person who committed the act was ever born but it was also done by free will?

That is what compatibilism requires.