Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

DavidTree said:
What "parallel" are you attempting to make/see/compare???
Click to expand...
[Job 1:6-8 NLT]
6 One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. Satan answered the LORD, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on." 8 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil."​

[Rom 1:18-20 NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.​

Both are a view of events from God’s point of view, not from man’s point of view. In Job, there is a conversation in heaven between God and Satan about the behavior of a good man. In Romans it is an explanation from God concerning His judgment and interaction with evil men. Both cases present information known to God as a revelation to men (us, the reader).


[Job 1:9-12 NLT]
9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.​

[Rom 1:21-22 NLT]
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.​

In the case of Job, Satan questions the motives for Job’s “goodness” by claiming that Job is only good because God protects Job – God has FORBIDDEN any harm to come to Job’s “home or property”. God responds by GRANTING PERMISSION for Satan to attack Job’s home and property but forbids Satan from harming Job’s person.

In Romans, v.20 established that men are “without excuse” and in verse 20 God proclaims that men “wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks”. This is a specific level of evil that men are PERMITTED to act out in their Free Will, yet it is clearly not the most “wicked” that men are capable of. God could have prevented their rebellion, but God PERMITTED them to “think up foolish ideas of what God was like” and God ALLOWED “their minds became dark and confused”.


[Job 1:13-19 NLT]
13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting at the oldest brother's house, 14 a messenger arrived at Job's home with this news: "Your oxen were plowing, with the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided us. They stole all the animals and killed all the farmhands. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 16 While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: "The fire of God has fallen from heaven and burned up your sheep and all the shepherds. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 17 While he was still speaking, a third messenger arrived with this news: "Three bands of Chaldean raiders have stolen your camels and killed your servants. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 18 While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: "Your sons and daughters were feasting in their oldest brother's home. 19 Suddenly, a powerful wind swept in from the wilderness and hit the house on all sides. The house collapsed, and all your children are dead. I am the only one who escaped to tell you."​

[Rom 1:23 NLT]
23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.​

In Job, Satan exercised his new freedom and attacked Job’s “house and possessions”. His property was destroyed, his wealth was destroyed, his family was killed. However much Satan might have wanted to do more to Job, God had PROHIBITED any attacks on Job himself, so Satan was unable to attack Job.

In Romans, God had permitted the men that refused to worship God, to exercise their foolishness and worship the created things in place of the CREATOR. However, we all know that this is far short of all the evil men are capable of.

In BOTH CASES, God set boundaries … he permitted EVIL to go “so far and no further”. Evil Angels and Men followed their fallen natures and gladly ran as far towards evil as God had permitted them. God acts as a RESTRAINT on the evil that Men and Fallen Angels are capable of.


[Job 2:3-6 NLT]
3 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause." 4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."​

[Rom 1:24-27 NLT]
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.​

In Job, Satan refuses to admit defeat and doubles down on his accusation. God lifts his hand of restraint and extends Satan’s boundary of evil from “not harming Job physically” to “not kill Job” … Satan is now permitted to PHYSICALLY HARM Job.

In Romans, those that freely chose to run from not “worship him as God or even give him thanks” to “worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles” … [an increase in evil acts from sins of omission to sins of commission] … discovered God had lifted His hand of restraint on their lives and “abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired”. They obliged by exercising their free will to follow their hearts into unnatural sexual desires.

As God lifts His hand of restraint, evil expands up to the new limits and no further.


[Job 2:7-10 NLT]
7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot. 8 Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes. 9 His wife said to him, "Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die." 10 But Job replied, "You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?" So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.​

[Rom 1:28-32 NLT]
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.​

In Job, Satan was quick to strike Job down physically. From the words of Job’s wife, we know the physical afflictions, while not enough to kill Job, were enough to make some people believe that death was preferable to continuing in that level of suffering. Job, a good man, did not sin.

In Romans, God “abandoned them” again to even greater EVIL. Yet again the restraining hand was removed, and they were allowed to “do things that should never be done” and to embrace “every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip”. In stort, they were abandoned to be as EVIL as men CAN be.

In BOTH Job 1-2 and Romans 1, we see both a Godly RESTRAINT of evil (this far and no further) and a lifting of that restraint to permit those bent towards evil to follow their darkened hearts. In JOB, it was to PROVE God’s servant faithful. In ROMANS, it was to afford the Vessels of Wrath opportunity to store up for themselves the full measure of wrath that their dark hearts desired. In both cases, God controlled the flow of evil that He would PERMIT.
 
atpollard said:
[Job 1:6-8 NLT]
6 One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. Satan answered the LORD, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on." 8 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil."​

[Rom 1:18-20 NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.​

Both are a view of events from God’s point of view, not from man’s point of view. In Job, there is a conversation in heaven between God and Satan about the behavior of a good man. In Romans it is an explanation from God concerning His judgment and interaction with evil men. Both cases present information known to God as a revelation to men (us, the reader).


[Job 1:9-12 NLT]
9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.​

[Rom 1:21-22 NLT]
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.​

In the case of Job, Satan questions the motives for Job’s “goodness” by claiming that Job is only good because God protects Job – God has FORBIDDEN any harm to come to Job’s “home or property”. God responds by GRANTING PERMISSION for Satan to attack Job’s home and property but forbids Satan from harming Job’s person.

In Romans, v.20 established that men are “without excuse” and in verse 20 God proclaims that men “wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks”. This is a specific level of evil that men are PERMITTED to act out in their Free Will, yet it is clearly not the most “wicked” that men are capable of. God could have prevented their rebellion, but God PERMITTED them to “think up foolish ideas of what God was like” and God ALLOWED “their minds became dark and confused”.


[Job 1:13-19 NLT]
13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting at the oldest brother's house, 14 a messenger arrived at Job's home with this news: "Your oxen were plowing, with the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided us. They stole all the animals and killed all the farmhands. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 16 While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: "The fire of God has fallen from heaven and burned up your sheep and all the shepherds. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 17 While he was still speaking, a third messenger arrived with this news: "Three bands of Chaldean raiders have stolen your camels and killed your servants. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 18 While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: "Your sons and daughters were feasting in their oldest brother's home. 19 Suddenly, a powerful wind swept in from the wilderness and hit the house on all sides. The house collapsed, and all your children are dead. I am the only one who escaped to tell you."​

[Rom 1:23 NLT]
23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.​

In Job, Satan exercised his new freedom and attacked Job’s “house and possessions”. His property was destroyed, his wealth was destroyed, his family was killed. However much Satan might have wanted to do more to Job, God had PROHIBITED any attacks on Job himself, so Satan was unable to attack Job.

In Romans, God had permitted the men that refused to worship God, to exercise their foolishness and worship the created things in place of the CREATOR. However, we all know that this is far short of all the evil men are capable of.

In BOTH CASES, God set boundaries … he permitted EVIL to go “so far and no further”. Evil Angels and Men followed their fallen natures and gladly ran as far towards evil as God had permitted them. God acts as a RESTRAINT on the evil that Men and Fallen Angels are capable of.


[Job 2:3-6 NLT]
3 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause." 4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."​

[Rom 1:24-27 NLT]
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.​

In Job, Satan refuses to admit defeat and doubles down on his accusation. God lifts his hand of restraint and extends Satan’s boundary of evil from “not harming Job physically” to “not kill Job” … Satan is now permitted to PHYSICALLY HARM Job.

In Romans, those that freely chose to run from not “worship him as God or even give him thanks” to “worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles” … [an increase in evil acts from sins of omission to sins of commission] … discovered God had lifted His hand of restraint on their lives and “abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired”. They obliged by exercising their free will to follow their hearts into unnatural sexual desires.

As God lifts His hand of restraint, evil expands up to the new limits and no further.


[Job 2:7-10 NLT]
7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot. 8 Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes. 9 His wife said to him, "Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die." 10 But Job replied, "You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?" So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.​

[Rom 1:28-32 NLT]
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.​

In Job, Satan was quick to strike Job down physically. From the words of Job’s wife, we know the physical afflictions, while not enough to kill Job, were enough to make some people believe that death was preferable to continuing in that level of suffering. Job, a good man, did not sin.

In Romans, God “abandoned them” again to even greater EVIL. Yet again the restraining hand was removed, and they were allowed to “do things that should never be done” and to embrace “every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip”. In stort, they were abandoned to be as EVIL as men CAN be.

In BOTH Job 1-2 and Romans 1, we see both a Godly RESTRAINT of evil (this far and no further) and a lifting of that restraint to permit those bent towards evil to follow their darkened hearts. In JOB, it was to PROVE God’s servant faithful. In ROMANS, it was to afford the Vessels of Wrath opportunity to store up for themselves the full measure of wrath that their dark hearts desired. In both cases, God controlled the flow of evil that He would PERMIT.
Click to expand...
Thanks for clarifying your position
 
atpollard said:
[Job 1:6-8 NLT]
6 One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. 7 "Where have you come from?" the LORD asked Satan. Satan answered the LORD, "I have been patrolling the earth, watching everything that's going on." 8 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil."​

[Rom 1:18-20 NLT]
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.​

Both are a view of events from God’s point of view, not from man’s point of view. In Job, there is a conversation in heaven between God and Satan about the behavior of a good man. In Romans it is an explanation from God concerning His judgment and interaction with evil men. Both cases present information known to God as a revelation to men (us, the reader).


[Job 1:9-12 NLT]
9 Satan replied to the LORD, "Yes, but Job has good reason to fear God. 10 You have always put a wall of protection around him and his home and his property. You have made him prosper in everything he does. Look how rich he is! 11 But reach out and take away everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 12 "All right, you may test him," the LORD said to Satan. "Do whatever you want with everything he possesses, but don't harm him physically." So Satan left the LORD's presence.​

[Rom 1:21-22 NLT]
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools.​

In the case of Job, Satan questions the motives for Job’s “goodness” by claiming that Job is only good because God protects Job – God has FORBIDDEN any harm to come to Job’s “home or property”. God responds by GRANTING PERMISSION for Satan to attack Job’s home and property but forbids Satan from harming Job’s person.

In Romans, v.20 established that men are “without excuse” and in verse 20 God proclaims that men “wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks”. This is a specific level of evil that men are PERMITTED to act out in their Free Will, yet it is clearly not the most “wicked” that men are capable of. God could have prevented their rebellion, but God PERMITTED them to “think up foolish ideas of what God was like” and God ALLOWED “their minds became dark and confused”.


[Job 1:13-19 NLT]
13 One day when Job's sons and daughters were feasting at the oldest brother's house, 14 a messenger arrived at Job's home with this news: "Your oxen were plowing, with the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided us. They stole all the animals and killed all the farmhands. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 16 While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: "The fire of God has fallen from heaven and burned up your sheep and all the shepherds. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 17 While he was still speaking, a third messenger arrived with this news: "Three bands of Chaldean raiders have stolen your camels and killed your servants. I am the only one who escaped to tell you." 18 While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: "Your sons and daughters were feasting in their oldest brother's home. 19 Suddenly, a powerful wind swept in from the wilderness and hit the house on all sides. The house collapsed, and all your children are dead. I am the only one who escaped to tell you."​

[Rom 1:23 NLT]
23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.​

In Job, Satan exercised his new freedom and attacked Job’s “house and possessions”. His property was destroyed, his wealth was destroyed, his family was killed. However much Satan might have wanted to do more to Job, God had PROHIBITED any attacks on Job himself, so Satan was unable to attack Job.

In Romans, God had permitted the men that refused to worship God, to exercise their foolishness and worship the created things in place of the CREATOR. However, we all know that this is far short of all the evil men are capable of.

In BOTH CASES, God set boundaries … he permitted EVIL to go “so far and no further”. Evil Angels and Men followed their fallen natures and gladly ran as far towards evil as God had permitted them. God acts as a RESTRAINT on the evil that Men and Fallen Angels are capable of.


[Job 2:3-6 NLT]
3 Then the LORD asked Satan, "Have you noticed my servant Job? He is the finest man in all the earth. He is blameless--a man of complete integrity. He fears God and stays away from evil. And he has maintained his integrity, even though you urged me to harm him without cause." 4 Satan replied to the LORD, "Skin for skin! A man will give up everything he has to save his life. 5 But reach out and take away his health, and he will surely curse you to your face!" 6 "All right, do with him as you please," the LORD said to Satan. "But spare his life."​

[Rom 1:24-27 NLT]
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.​

In Job, Satan refuses to admit defeat and doubles down on his accusation. God lifts his hand of restraint and extends Satan’s boundary of evil from “not harming Job physically” to “not kill Job” … Satan is now permitted to PHYSICALLY HARM Job.

In Romans, those that freely chose to run from not “worship him as God or even give him thanks” to “worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles” … [an increase in evil acts from sins of omission to sins of commission] … discovered God had lifted His hand of restraint on their lives and “abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired”. They obliged by exercising their free will to follow their hearts into unnatural sexual desires.

As God lifts His hand of restraint, evil expands up to the new limits and no further.


[Job 2:7-10 NLT]
7 So Satan left the LORD's presence, and he struck Job with terrible boils from head to foot. 8 Job scraped his skin with a piece of broken pottery as he sat among the ashes. 9 His wife said to him, "Are you still trying to maintain your integrity? Curse God and die." 10 But Job replied, "You talk like a foolish woman. Should we accept only good things from the hand of God and never anything bad?" So in all this, Job said nothing wrong.​

[Rom 1:28-32 NLT]
28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God's justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.​

In Job, Satan was quick to strike Job down physically. From the words of Job’s wife, we know the physical afflictions, while not enough to kill Job, were enough to make some people believe that death was preferable to continuing in that level of suffering. Job, a good man, did not sin.

In Romans, God “abandoned them” again to even greater EVIL. Yet again the restraining hand was removed, and they were allowed to “do things that should never be done” and to embrace “every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip”. In stort, they were abandoned to be as EVIL as men CAN be.

In BOTH Job 1-2 and Romans 1, we see both a Godly RESTRAINT of evil (this far and no further) and a lifting of that restraint to permit those bent towards evil to follow their darkened hearts. In JOB, it was to PROVE God’s servant faithful. In ROMANS, it was to afford the Vessels of Wrath opportunity to store up for themselves the full measure of wrath that their dark hearts desired. In both cases, God controlled the flow of evil that He would PERMIT.
Click to expand...
So thus you show God did not sovereignly cause/determine everything.
 
TomL said:
So thus you show God did not sovereignly cause/determine everything.
Click to expand...
Wrong.
What event in either story did God not permit?

You should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology than worrying so much about MY theological beliefs.
 
atpollard said:
Wrong.
What event in either story did God not permit?

You should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology than worrying so much about MY theological beliefs.
Click to expand...
Determinism is not about permitting but determining, and it was determined before creation, before the determined existed.
 
Last edited:
DavidTree said:
#1 - How can it be preached unless there is someone to preach!

#2 - How did the person who is preaching "hear?

#3 - When, where and how does this occur?
Click to expand...
From someone else or from scripture or from the inspiration of the Spirit or what may be called the voice of God
 
Last edited:
TomL said:
Determinism is not about permitting but determining, and it was determined before creation, before the determined existed.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant to my post as I am still not a Determinist, I am a Compatibalist, therefore …

You should focus more on either YOUR theology or BIBLICAL theology than worrying so much about MY theological beliefs.
 

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