Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

That is somewhat deceptive leaning as in response to your question

I replied

The word does nothing at all to support your belief in determinism.
Romans 1:21-27 [NLT]
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
  • What did men do?​

  • Why did God abandon them?​

  • What happened after God abandoned them?​

  • Did "God abandoned them" have any impact on the quantity or quality of EVIL before or after God abandoned them?​


You are resolute to remain ignorant and refuse to discuss.
Acknowledged as your right [and shaking off the dust.]

[PS. I am a "Compatibalist" and not a "Determinist".]
 
Romans 1:21-27 [NLT]
Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.
  • What did men do?​

  • Why did God abandon them?​

  • What happened after God abandoned them?​

  • Did "God abandoned them" have any impact on the quantity or quality of EVIL before or after God abandoned them?​


You are resolute to remain ignorant and refuse to discuss.
Acknowledged as your right [and shaking off the dust.]

[PS. I am a "Compatibalist" and not a "Determinist".]
PS a compatibalist believes in both free will and determinism.

It is another conflated theology found among some Calvinists.

Hello

BTW

Romans 1:21–27 (LEB) — 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God with the likeness of an image of mortal human beings and birds and quadrupeds and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to immorality, that their bodies would be dishonored among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God with a lie, and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed for eternity. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to degrading passions, for their females exchanged the natural relations for those contrary to nature, 27 and likewise also the males, abandoning the natural relations with the female, were inflamed in their desire toward one another, males with males committing the shameless deed, and receiving in themselves the penalty that was necessary for their error.

Still does nothing whatsoever to show God determined the fact that

They did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their reasoning, and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God with the likeness of an image of mortal human beings and birds and quadrupeds and reptiles.

They did evil in that

God abandoned them because of the evil they did.

God's abandoning of them was not the cause of their initial darkness and foolishness

Hello
 
God's abandoning of them was not the cause of their initial darkness and foolishness
No it was not … that is why I am not a Hard Determinist.
However, prior to God “abandoning them” … it would seem that God was “restraining them”, thus God is responsible for the fact that they did NOT do certain evil before God “abandoned them” that they were able to do (and did do) after God “abandoned them”. We see a parallel in Job with what Satan was permitted to do. God gradually lifted his restraint and permitted progressively greater evil against Job.
 
No it was not … that is why I am not a Hard Determinist.
However, prior to God “abandoning them” … it would seem that God was “restraining them”, thus God is responsible for the fact that they did NOT do certain evil before God “abandoned them” that they were able to do (and did do) after God “abandoned them”. We see a parallel in Job with what Satan was permitted to do. God gradually lifted his restraint and permitted progressively greater evil against Job.
So determinism is therefore a false theology

God did not determine everything that transpired
 
No it was not … that is why I am not a Hard Determinist.
However, prior to God “abandoning them” … it would seem that God was “restraining them”, thus God is responsible for the fact that they did NOT do certain evil before God “abandoned them” that they were able to do (and did do) after God “abandoned them”. We see a parallel in Job with what Satan was permitted to do. God gradually lifted his restraint and permitted progressively greater evil against Job.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the people of the world?
 
So determinism is therefore a false theology
God did not determine everything that transpired
According to God, He determines all things:

  • Isaiah 46:10 [KJV] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

  • Ephesians 1:11 [KJV] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

  • Hebrews 6:17 [KJV] Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

  • Romans 9:15, 18 [KJV] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ... Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

The secret is found in the compatibility of God’s predetermined plan and our sinful free choices:

  • Genesis 50:20 [KJV] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
 
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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


Do you believe God loves the people of the world?
Absolutely …

And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.” - Revelation 5:9-10

… every kindred and tongue and people and nation - Jew and Gentile, free and slave - the whole world!
 
According to God, He determines all things:
Um did you not previously deny the determination of all things

Your very words

No it was not … that is why I am not a Hard Determinist.

  • Isaiah 46:10 [KJV] Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Read the context

Isaiah 46:5–11 (NASB95) — 5 “To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 6 “Those who lavish gold from the purse And weigh silver on the scale Hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god; They bow down, indeed they worship it. 7 “They lift it upon the shoulder and carry it; They set it in its place and it stands there. It does not move from its place. Though one may cry to it, it cannot answer; It cannot deliver him from his distress. 8 “Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. 9 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Did God cause their creation and worship of false golden gods?


  • Ephesians 1:11 [KJV] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
God determining the destiny of those in Christ is not evidence of God determining all things


Ephesians 1:7–11 (NASB95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,



  • Hebrews 6:17 [KJV] Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Nothing there states God determines all things

Hebrews 6:17 (NIV) — 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

  • Romans 9:15, 18 [KJV] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ... Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Indeed God determined to provide salvation for those with faith in Christ

Romans 9:30–33 (NIV) — 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

and harden those who had rejected Christ (at least temporarily)

as Paul notes in

Romans 11:11–12 (NIV) — 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Romans 11:22–27 (NIV) — 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”





The secret is found in the compatibility of God’s predetermined plan and our sinful free choices:

  • Genesis 50:20 [KJV] But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
This simply shows God is able to bring forth good out of an evil act. It does not state God determines all evil acts

The scriptures you quote fall far short of proving God determines all things.
 
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Um did you not previously deny the determination of all things

Your very words
No it was not … that is why I am not a Hard Determinist.
You really are having trouble comprehending the concept of "Compatibalism", aren't you. It might have helped you to understand if you didn't stop reading at the first line of post # 444, but had continued reading the whole post ...

However, prior to God “abandoning them” … it would seem that God was “restraining them”, thus God is responsible for the fact that they did NOT do certain evil before God “abandoned them” that they were able to do (and did do) after God “abandoned them”. We see a parallel in Job with what Satan was permitted to do. God gradually lifted his restraint and permitted progressively greater evil against Job.

In the story of Job, did GOD "determine" what Satan was permitted to do to Job?

Did God COMPEL (like a robot) Satan to do anything to Job or did Satan follow his own evil desires?

Were Satan's evil desires "Compatible" with what God permitted or were Satan's evil desires "Hard (irresistibly) Determined" by God?


  • I see a lesson in Job that can be applied to Romans 1 and God "abandoning them" (you may be incapable of making the leap and seeing the parallel, but the "Compatibalism" is irrefutable in the story of God, Satan and Job.)
  • I see this lesson on what God restrains and what God allows and free will ... Compatibalism ... as having application to the issue of Free Will and Irresistible Grace in the subject of soteriology (how God saves).
 
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Read the context

Isaiah 46:5–11 (NASB95) — 5 “To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 6 “Those who lavish gold from the purse And weigh silver on the scale Hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god; They bow down, indeed they worship it. 7 “They lift it upon the shoulder and carry it; They set it in its place and it stands there. It does not move from its place. Though one may cry to it, it cannot answer; It cannot deliver him from his distress. 8 “Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. 9 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

Did God cause their creation and worship of false golden gods?
I read it.
Does the context change the nature of God?
  • "Declaring the end from the beginning," ... Does God NOT declare the end from the beginning (meaning that what God has declared will happen, will happen ... and God made that decision in "the beginning")?
  • "And from ancient times things which have not been done," ... Does God NOT declare from ANCIENT TIMES future events (making them unchangeable decided since God is not wrong)?
  • "Saying, ‘My purpose will be established" ... Is God's PURPOSE not ESTABLISHED?
  • "And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’" ... Will God not ACCOMPLISH (achieve/do not try) His GOOD PLEASURE (whatever God wants)?
I do not think the context changes God.
 
God determining the destiny of those in Christ is not evidence of God determining all things


Ephesians 1:7–11 (NASB95) — 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

"having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,"

I am of the opinion that when God claims to work "ALL THINGS" according to HIS WILL ... All Things means All Things, not "some things".

Your Mileage May Vary (but that would be a "you" problem and not a "me" problem)
 
Nothing there states God determines all things

Hebrews 6:17 (NIV) — 17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.
"God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear"

Nope, nothing in Hebrews 6:17 states "God determines all things" (the other verses stated that ... Ephesians 1:11 almost verbatim "who works all things after the counsel of His will"). What this verse states is that God's Plan (made "from the beginning" and "from ancient times" and "after the council of His will") is "UNCHANGING" ... it does not change! Your sudden free will choice of the moment DOES NOT CHANGE the UNCHANGING FROM THE BEGINNING FROM ANCIENT TIMES AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL "plan" of God ... which includes "all things"!
 
"God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear"

Clearly all things are not in view here

Hebrews 6:17 (LEB) — 17 In the same way God, because he wanted to show even more to the heirs of the promise the unchangeableness of his resolve, guaranteed it with an oath,

What we do have is God unchangeableness of his resolve of his promise to his heirs

Nope, nothing in Hebrews 6:17 states "God determines all things" (the other verses stated that ... Ephesians 1:11 almost verbatim "who works all things after the counsel of His will"). What this verse states is that God's Plan (made "from the beginning" and "from ancient times" and "after the council of His will") is "UNCHANGING" ... it does not change! Your sudden free will choice of the moment DOES NOT CHANGE the UNCHANGING FROM THE BEGINNING FROM ANCIENT TIMES AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL "plan" of God ... which includes "all things"!
Context

Ephesians 1:11–14 (LEB) — 11 in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory, 13 in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.

Concerns those in Christ being predestined to a certain inheritance.

Again, nothing there about God determining all things.
 
"having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,"

I am of the opinion that when God claims to work "ALL THINGS" according to HIS WILL ... All Things means All Things, not "some things".

Your Mileage May Vary (but that would be a "you" problem and not a "me" problem)
Again, God's predestination of a certain inheritance for those in Christ does nothing whatsoever to show God determined all things.
 
I read it.
Does the context change the nature of God?
  • "Declaring the end from the beginning," ... Does God NOT declare the end from the beginning (meaning that what God has declared will happen, will happen ... and God made that decision in "the beginning")?
  • "And from ancient times things which have not been done," ... Does God NOT declare from ANCIENT TIMES future events (making them unchangeable decided since God is not wrong)?
  • "Saying, ‘My purpose will be established" ... Is God's PURPOSE not ESTABLISHED?
  • "And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’" ... Will God not ACCOMPLISH (achieve/do not try) His GOOD PLEASURE (whatever God wants)?
I do not think the context changes God.
The question was

Did God cause their creation and worship of false golden gods?


Isaiah 46:5–11 (NASB95) — 5 “To whom would you liken Me And make Me equal and compare Me, That we would be alike? 6 “Those who lavish gold from the purse And weigh silver on the scale Hire a goldsmith, and he makes it into a god; They bow down, indeed they worship it. 7 “They lift it upon the shoulder and carry it; They set it in its place and it stands there. It does not move from its place. Though one may cry to it, it cannot answer; It cannot deliver him from his distress. 8 “Remember this, and be assured; Recall it to mind, you transgressors. 9 “Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’; 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it.

God purposing certain things does not indicate he determines all things.
 
You really are having trouble comprehending the concept of "Compatibalism", aren't you. It might have helped you to understand if you didn't stop reading at the first line of post # 444, but had continued reading the whole post ...

I have no lack of comprehension what the doctrine of compatibilism consists of. The problem is it makes no sense.

Um did you not previously deny the determination of all things

Your very words

No it was not … that is why I am not a Hard Determinist.

Compatibilism claims determination and free will are compatible.

Compatibilism is an attempt to reconcile the theological proposition that every event is causally determined, ordained, and/or decreed by God (i.e., determinism, not to be confused with fatalism)—with the free will of man. Promulgated originally from a philosophical viewpoint by the Greek Stoics and later by numerous philosophers such as Thomas…
Got Questions? Bible Questions Answered
 
Clearly all things are not in view here
Perhaps, that is a matter open to debate. What is NOT open to debate is that one thing clearly IS in view here ...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"​


... the title/subject of this TOPIC. I this: "God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear"

  • IT IS UNCHANGING.
  • IT IS FROM THE BEGINNING.
  • IT IS FROM ANCIENT TIMES.
  • IT IS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL.
  • IT INCLUDES ALL THINGS.
 
Um did you not previously deny the determination of all things
You ignored my answer the last time I responded to this question, why would I respond again.

Welcome to "ignore" as you are clearly unwilling to listen and merely waiting to repeat the same questions.
 
Perhaps, that is a matter open to debate. What is NOT open to debate is that one thing clearly IS in view here ...

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"​


... the title/subject of this TOPIC. I this: "God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear"

  • IT IS UNCHANGING.
  • IT IS FROM THE BEGINNING.
  • IT IS FROM ANCIENT TIMES.
  • IT IS AFTER THE COUNCIL OF HIS WILL.
  • IT INCLUDES ALL THINGS.
No one denies we are saved through faith but that does nothing at all to show that God determines all things.
 
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