Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TedT]

Why then has not one human born of Adam ever not sinned?

This is because only sinners are sown into mankind, into Adam...only those who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD already, before their conception. This world is a prison for ALL sinners with a rehab centre in it for those believers, Jn 3:18, who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD, ie, the sinful people of the kingdom, Matt 13:36-39, who are destined to be redeemed, sanctified and made ready for the heavenly marriage.

 

[brightfame52]

Not in the sense you mean. We can only believe because of Grace, but only in the sense that without grace presenting the gospel to us, we would have nothing in which to believe!

God didn’t have to promise anything to us! That he did, is the beginning of grace, the movement of grace, and the goal of grace.

Doug

Believing is by Grace, the grace of having been made alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
We cant believe while dead in sin, because we are dead in unbelief, imprisoned in unbelief Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
That mercy is here Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Thats the only was one can believe !

 

[brightfame52]

A sinner cannot do any work of holiness, he is enslaved to sin. All repentance and faith by a believer is ONLY by the grace of GOD...Romans 1!

Correct, and believe it or not, believing in Christ is a spiritual holy action, so it takes sanctification of the Spirit to effect it. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[TibiasDad]

To believe this is foolish

I am happy to be a fool for Christ and the truth of the gospel…

Luke 16 is a parable, based upon Jesus Christ forgoing words, and can easily be proven to be such, without a lot of effort, would you care to see and debate this?

Sure, if you want to lose…

1) Nothing is called a parable within the text itself. And the only account in chapter 16 that follows the format of a parable is the account of the shrewd manager.

2) Parables illustrate a principle of truth. The shrewd manager created a positive atmosphere with the master’s debtors so he would have someone to help him after he got fired. He was creating a ‘plan B’ scenario if he needed it.

3)
10“Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

13“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

16“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

These are not parables.

4) The account of the rich man and Lazarus, has been traditionally called a parable, but if it is, it is the only one of its kind.

Parables never mention actual people’s names. Lazarus and Abraham are specifically called by name, which indicates a narrative format rather than a parabolic illustration.

Parables are always set in an earthly context. This is set in both the present tense and in eternity. Specific places are named, Abraham’s side (in paradise) and Hades (Hell, or the place of the unrighteous). Such specificity is not germane to parables, and it again indicates a narrative account not a mere illustration.

5) Finally, there is no summary statement by Jesus to explain the point of the story, such as in the account of the shrewd manager, which ends with vs 9 which says
“I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.”

In the end, whether this is a “parable” or not does not change the message of the account, but for God the Son to tell it, is it unreasonable to assume that he could be privy to such an event occurring? I certainly don’t think so. There is enough oddity of information in this to warrant questioning it to be a mere illustration. If it is real, the force of the message is much more poignant and cutting.


Doug

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

I am happy to be a fool for Christ and the truth of the gospel…

I'll answer you in the morning, the Lord willing.

Doug, if you going to a fool for Christ your got to have his truth on his gospel which you my friend do not have. They are many fools in rellgion, not saying you are one one them, for I'm sure you are sincere and conduct yourself in a godly manner, which reading your post, I would give you that much credit. But you have a gospel that depends on man playing a part in his salvation from sin and condemnation and that is impossible, or else, Christ died in vain ~ Galatians 2;20 and his death was not in vain, not even close of being so!

Later...I'm resting for most of day, still trying to get my strength back.

 

[TibiasDad]

Its Grace that makes a person a believer,

It is Grace that affects a believer becoming a Christian by the gospel.
It is Grace that allows a person to believe by the gospel.

its the grace of sanctification of the Spirit that causes a gospel obedience 1 Pet 1:2

This is the post-regeneration work of the Spirit. Saved then sanctified.

JFB explains this good

1) JFB explains this well…

2) Who is JFB?

3) I don’t want to know how someone else explains it; I want you to show your own thinking backed by your own argument. Anyone can cut and paste the opinions of others (profitable as they may or may not be), but that’s not real thinking. You’re better than that!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

This is because only sinners are sown into mankind, into Adam...only those who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD already, before their conception. This world is a prison for ALL sinners with a rehab centre in it for those believers, Jn 3:18, who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD, ie, the sinful people of the kingdom, Matt 13:36-39, who are destined to be redeemed, sanctified and made ready for the heavenly marriage.

Hogwash… mere fantasy…hogwash…spiritual fiction. Oh, and Hogwash!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Believing is by Grace, the grace of having been made alive Eph 2:5

Circular reasoning! There is no need to believe if you’re already alive, back in relationship with God.

No place in scripture says that you must be born again before you believe. It does say that he that actively believes shall not perish but rather shall have everlasting life. Believing being the prerequisite to life, and it is never reversed. Never!

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

This does not say that we are unable to believe when we are dead in sins. It says nothing about believing one way or another. That doesn’t come until verse 8- For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…it is not by grace alone, but grace by means of faith.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Of course we are all bound by sin, and of course the only hope we have is that God might have mercy on us. But he only has mercy on those who believe.

Again, the only thing that keeps us from relationship with God is “… because of unbelief,…” and the only thing that puts us in relationship with God is that “you stand by faith.” (Rom 11:20) And again, “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

It is all about whether you believe or don’t believe, not about whether you are elect or not!

Another argument against “election” as you define it, is that Paul clearly warns the Roman believer’s that they too can be “cut off” if they don’t continue to believe.

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

But you have a gospel that depends on man playing a part in his salvation

Does God command us to repent and believe? Is that not an action required by God for man to do?

Take your time, and make sure you take care of yourself!


Doug

 

[civic]

Circular reasoning! There is no need to believe if you’re already alive, back in relationship with God.

No place in scripture says that you must be born again before you believe. It does say that he that actively believes shall not perish but rather shall have everlasting life. Believing being the prerequisite to life, and it is never reversed. Never!


This does not say that we are unable to believe when we are dead in sins. It says nothing about believing one way or another. That doesn’t come until verse 8- For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…it is not by grace alone, but grace by means of faith.

32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Of course we are all bound by sin, and of course the only hope we have is that God might have mercy on us. But he only has mercy on those who believe.

Again, the only thing that keeps us from relationship with God is “… because of unbelief,…” and the only thing that puts us in relationship with God is that “you stand by faith.” (Rom 11:20) And again, “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

It is all about whether you believe or don’t believe, not about whether you are elect or not!

Another argument against “election” as you define it, is that Paul clearly warns the Roman believer’s that they too can be “cut off” if they don’t continue to believe.

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

Amen

 

[Studyman]

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

The word "Goodness/Kindness" used in Romans 11:22 is "χρηστότης, χρηστητος, ἡ (χρηστός);

It means "moral goodness, integrity".

22 Behold therefore the goodness (Moral Goodness, Integrity) and severity (severity, roughness, rigor, wrath) of God: on them which fell, severity; (severity, roughness, rigor, wrath) but toward thee, goodness, (Moral Goodness, Integrity) "if thou continue "in his goodness:" (Moral Goodness, Integrity) otherwise "thou also" shalt be cut off.

Paul teaches that God's Righteousness, (Moral Goodness, Integrity) is revealed to us in the Law and Prophets. (Rom. 1:16-19) He also said the "Wrath of God" (severity, roughness, rigor) is also revealed in the same Gospel of Christ.

This aligns perfectly with the Jesus "of the Bible's" teaching to "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect", or "Continue in His Moral Goodness, Integrity" as Paul teaches.

Paul teaches this same gospel message in many of his Epistles.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing ( this would be continuing in God's Moral Goodness, Integrity, Yes?) "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, "but obey unrighteousness", indignation and wrath, (anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath or as it is written "Severity")

Given Paul used the examples God gave to us for our admonition in Rom. 11, to show both the "Goodness" of God toward those who believed in God enough to continue in His Goodness/Kindness, and the "Severity/Wrath" of God towards those who refused to walk in His Goodness/Kindness, it seems important to understand what he means when he says to "continue in God's goodness/kindness".

There are a lot of "kind people" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who cast out demons in His Name, but refuse to continue in God's Goodness.