Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TedT]

Why then has not one human born of Adam ever not sinned?

This is because only sinners are sown into mankind, into Adam...only those who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD already, before their conception. This world is a prison for ALL sinners with a rehab centre in it for those believers, Jn 3:18, who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD, ie, the sinful people of the kingdom, Matt 13:36-39, who are destined to be redeemed, sanctified and made ready for the heavenly marriage.

 

[brightfame52]

Not in the sense you mean. We can only believe because of Grace, but only in the sense that without grace presenting the gospel to us, we would have nothing in which to believe!

God didn’t have to promise anything to us! That he did, is the beginning of grace, the movement of grace, and the goal of grace.

Doug

Believing is by Grace, the grace of having been made alive Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )
We cant believe while dead in sin, because we are dead in unbelief, imprisoned in unbelief Rom 11:32
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
That mercy is here Eph 2:4-5

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Thats the only was one can believe !

 

[brightfame52]

A sinner cannot do any work of holiness, he is enslaved to sin. All repentance and faith by a believer is ONLY by the grace of GOD...Romans 1!

Correct, and believe it or not, believing in Christ is a spiritual holy action, so it takes sanctification of the Spirit to effect it. 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[TibiasDad]

To believe this is foolish

I am happy to be a fool for Christ and the truth of the gospel…

Luke 16 is a parable, based upon Jesus Christ forgoing words, and can easily be proven to be such, without a lot of effort, would you care to see and debate this?

Sure, if you want to lose…

1) Nothing is called a parable within the text itself. And the only account in chapter 16 that follows the format of a parable is the account of the shrewd manager.

2) Parables illustrate a principle of truth. The shrewd manager created a positive atmosphere with the master’s debtors so he would have someone to help him after he got fired. He was creating a ‘plan B’ scenario if he needed it.

3)
10“Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else’s property, who will give you property of your own?

13“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

16“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

These are not parables.

4) The account of the rich man and Lazarus, has been traditionally called a parable, but if it is, it is the only one of its kind.

Parables never mention actual people’s names. Lazarus and Abraham are specifically called by name, which indicates a narrative format rather than a parabolic illustration.

Parables are always set in an earthly context. This is set in both the present tense and in eternity. Specific places are named, Abraham’s side (in paradise) and Hades (Hell, or the place of the unrighteous). Such specificity is not germane to parables, and it again indicates a narrative account not a mere illustration.

5) Finally, there is no summary statement by Jesus to explain the point of the story, such as in the account of the shrewd manager, which ends with vs 9 which says
“I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.”

In the end, whether this is a “parable” or not does not change the message of the account, but for God the Son to tell it, is it unreasonable to assume that he could be privy to such an event occurring? I certainly don’t think so. There is enough oddity of information in this to warrant questioning it to be a mere illustration. If it is real, the force of the message is much more poignant and cutting.


Doug

 

[Red Baker]

@TibiasDad

I am happy to be a fool for Christ and the truth of the gospel…

I'll answer you in the morning, the Lord willing.

Doug, if you going to a fool for Christ your got to have his truth on his gospel which you my friend do not have. They are many fools in rellgion, not saying you are one one them, for I'm sure you are sincere and conduct yourself in a godly manner, which reading your post, I would give you that much credit. But you have a gospel that depends on man playing a part in his salvation from sin and condemnation and that is impossible, or else, Christ died in vain ~ Galatians 2;20 and his death was not in vain, not even close of being so!

Later...I'm resting for most of day, still trying to get my strength back.

 

[TibiasDad]

Its Grace that makes a person a believer,

It is Grace that affects a believer becoming a Christian by the gospel.
It is Grace that allows a person to believe by the gospel.

its the grace of sanctification of the Spirit that causes a gospel obedience 1 Pet 1:2

This is the post-regeneration work of the Spirit. Saved then sanctified.

JFB explains this good

1) JFB explains this well…

2) Who is JFB?

3) I don’t want to know how someone else explains it; I want you to show your own thinking backed by your own argument. Anyone can cut and paste the opinions of others (profitable as they may or may not be), but that’s not real thinking. You’re better than that!


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

This is because only sinners are sown into mankind, into Adam...only those who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD already, before their conception. This world is a prison for ALL sinners with a rehab centre in it for those believers, Jn 3:18, who have chosen by their free will to rebel against GOD, ie, the sinful people of the kingdom, Matt 13:36-39, who are destined to be redeemed, sanctified and made ready for the heavenly marriage.

Hogwash… mere fantasy…hogwash…spiritual fiction. Oh, and Hogwash!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Believing is by Grace, the grace of having been made alive Eph 2:5

Circular reasoning! There is no need to believe if you’re already alive, back in relationship with God.

No place in scripture says that you must be born again before you believe. It does say that he that actively believes shall not perish but rather shall have everlasting life. Believing being the prerequisite to life, and it is never reversed. Never!

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

This does not say that we are unable to believe when we are dead in sins. It says nothing about believing one way or another. That doesn’t come until verse 8- For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…it is not by grace alone, but grace by means of faith.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Of course we are all bound by sin, and of course the only hope we have is that God might have mercy on us. But he only has mercy on those who believe.

Again, the only thing that keeps us from relationship with God is “… because of unbelief,…” and the only thing that puts us in relationship with God is that “you stand by faith.” (Rom 11:20) And again, “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

It is all about whether you believe or don’t believe, not about whether you are elect or not!

Another argument against “election” as you define it, is that Paul clearly warns the Roman believer’s that they too can be “cut off” if they don’t continue to believe.

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

But you have a gospel that depends on man playing a part in his salvation

Does God command us to repent and believe? Is that not an action required by God for man to do?

Take your time, and make sure you take care of yourself!


Doug

 

[civic]

Circular reasoning! There is no need to believe if you’re already alive, back in relationship with God.

No place in scripture says that you must be born again before you believe. It does say that he that actively believes shall not perish but rather shall have everlasting life. Believing being the prerequisite to life, and it is never reversed. Never!


This does not say that we are unable to believe when we are dead in sins. It says nothing about believing one way or another. That doesn’t come until verse 8- For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…it is not by grace alone, but grace by means of faith.

32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Of course we are all bound by sin, and of course the only hope we have is that God might have mercy on us. But he only has mercy on those who believe.

Again, the only thing that keeps us from relationship with God is “… because of unbelief,…” and the only thing that puts us in relationship with God is that “you stand by faith.” (Rom 11:20) And again, “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

It is all about whether you believe or don’t believe, not about whether you are elect or not!

Another argument against “election” as you define it, is that Paul clearly warns the Roman believer’s that they too can be “cut off” if they don’t continue to believe.

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

Amen

 

[Studyman]

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

The word "Goodness/Kindness" used in Romans 11:22 is "χρηστότης, χρηστητος, ἡ (χρηστός);

It means "moral goodness, integrity".

22 Behold therefore the goodness (Moral Goodness, Integrity) and severity (severity, roughness, rigor, wrath) of God: on them which fell, severity; (severity, roughness, rigor, wrath) but toward thee, goodness, (Moral Goodness, Integrity) "if thou continue "in his goodness:" (Moral Goodness, Integrity) otherwise "thou also" shalt be cut off.

Paul teaches that God's Righteousness, (Moral Goodness, Integrity) is revealed to us in the Law and Prophets. (Rom. 1:16-19) He also said the "Wrath of God" (severity, roughness, rigor) is also revealed in the same Gospel of Christ.

This aligns perfectly with the Jesus "of the Bible's" teaching to "Be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect", or "Continue in His Moral Goodness, Integrity" as Paul teaches.

Paul teaches this same gospel message in many of his Epistles.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing ( this would be continuing in God's Moral Goodness, Integrity, Yes?) "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, "but obey unrighteousness", indignation and wrath, (anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath or as it is written "Severity")

Given Paul used the examples God gave to us for our admonition in Rom. 11, to show both the "Goodness" of God toward those who believed in God enough to continue in His Goodness/Kindness, and the "Severity/Wrath" of God towards those who refused to walk in His Goodness/Kindness, it seems important to understand what he means when he says to "continue in God's goodness/kindness".

There are a lot of "kind people" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who cast out demons in His Name, but refuse to continue in God's Goodness.

 

[brightfame52]

Circular reasoning! There is no need to believe if you’re already alive, back in relationship with God.

No place in scripture says that you must be born again before you believe. It does say that he that actively believes shall not perish but rather shall have everlasting life. Believing being the prerequisite to life, and it is never reversed. Never!


This does not say that we are unable to believe when we are dead in sins. It says nothing about believing one way or another. That doesn’t come until verse 8- For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith…it is not by grace alone, but grace by means of faith.

32For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Of course we are all bound by sin, and of course the only hope we have is that God might have mercy on us. But he only has mercy on those who believe.

Again, the only thing that keeps us from relationship with God is “… because of unbelief,…” and the only thing that puts us in relationship with God is that “you stand by faith.” (Rom 11:20) And again, “And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:23)

It is all about whether you believe or don’t believe, not about whether you are elect or not!

Another argument against “election” as you define it, is that Paul clearly warns the Roman believer’s that they too can be “cut off” if they don’t continue to believe.

Rom 11:19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Doug

Believing is by Grace, being made alive, furthermore men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them by making them alive.

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Paul teaches that God's Righteousness, (Moral Goodness, Integrity) is revealed to us in the Law and Prophets. (Rom. 1:16-19) He also said the "Wrath of God" (severity, roughness, rigor) is also revealed in the same Gospel of Christ.

I'm not going to say much, but do desire to clear the cloud of confusion you put upon some blessed truths as you attempt to interject your work system into the teaching of God's word ~ just seeking to protect God's lambs as we older saints must do. A word or two should help.

Romans 1:17​

“For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”

"The righteousness of God"

This phrase may, according to circumstances, mean either the personal attribute of God, (which is all that you are promoting, and ever do) or, as in this place, the righteousness which God has provided, and secured for his elect by our surety, Jesus Christ His only begotten son....which He has effected, and which He imputes freely without the deeds of the law, or works, for justification to all His elect. It is through this righteousness, revealed in the Gospel, that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation for believers only. Paul reverts to its manifestation, Romans 3:21, where the signification of this most important expression is fully considered. At present it is sufficient to remark that the grand object of the apostle is to show that man, having lost his own righteousness, and thereby fallen under condemnation, God has provided and secured for him a righteousness ~ the complete fulfillment of the law in all its threatenings and all its precepts ~ by which, being placed to his account by grace alone, without works being required he is acquitted from all guilt, freed from all condemnation, and is entitled to the reward of eternal life. On the ground of Christ's prefect obedience and righteousness.

This is a truth that never comes out of the mouth of false prophets.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Believing is by Grace, being made alive, furthermore men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them by making them alive.

men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them

Scripture.

 

[Red Baker]

@FreeInChrist

men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them

Scripture.

I'll let him answer for himself and then I will add to this. It is amazing that you would even question this truth. I'll wait.

 

[brightfame52]

men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them

Scripture.

Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[FreeInChrist]

@FreeInChrist

I'll let him answer for himself and then I will add to this. It is amazing that you would even question this truth. I'll wait.

Another one.... Ill remove my signature after this..

@brightfame52 said

Believing is by Grace, being made alive, furthermore men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them by making them alive.

I replied with

men are locked in unbelief until and if God has mercy upon them

Scripture.

Missed the question mark... I am looking for the scripture

 

[FreeInChrist]

Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Where does it say they are locked? IT DOSE NOT.

God can determined them all in unbelief but said nothing about they are locked.

 

[brightfame52]

Where does it say they are locked? IT DOSE NOT.

God can determined them all in unbelief but said nothing about they are locked.

You have to study. The word concluded gives that meaning. Im not studying for you

 

[FreeInChrist]

You have to study. The word concluded gives that meaning. Im not studying for you

Well while you are studying...

Ep 2:8 KJV For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

or

Ep 2:8 NLT God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.


And because you said "the word concluded gives that meaning" of locked

Go check out Strong's on the meaning of (dia) διά

2. of the instrument used to accomplish a thing, or of the instrumental cause in the stricter sense: — with the genitive of person by the service, the intervention of, anyone; with the genitive of thing, "by means of with the help of, anything;

a. in passages where a subject expressly mentioned is said to do or to have done a thing by some person or by some thing: Mark 16:20 (τοῦ κυρίου τόν λόγον βεβαιοῦντος διά τῶν σημείων); Luke 1:70; Acts 1:16; Acts 2:22 (τέρασι καί σημείοις, οἷς ἐποίησε δἰ αὐτοῦ ὁ Θεός); Acts 8:20; Acts 10:36; Acts 15:28 (γράψαντες διά χειρός αὐτῶν); Acts 20:28; Acts 21:19; Acts 28:25; Romans 2:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 7:13; ( Rec.bez elz L edition min. T WH text); Romans 15:18; Romans 16:18; 1 Corinthians 1:21 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 381 (357)); 1 Corinthians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:15; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 14:9, 19 (R G); ; 2 Corinthians 1:4; 2 Corinthians 4:14 R G; (cf. Winer's Grammar, 381 (357)); ; Ephesians 1:5; Ephesians 2:16; Colossians 1:20, 22; Colossians 2:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:14; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 1:2, 3 (R G); ; Revelation 1:1; γῆ ἐξ ὕδατος (material cause) καί δἰ ὕδατος συνεστῶσα τῷ τοῦ Θεοῦ λόγῳ, 2 Peter 3:5 (Winers Grammar, 419 (390) cf. 217 (204)).

b. in passages in which the author or principal cause is not mentioned, but is easily understood from the nature of the case, or from the context: Romans 1:12; 1 Corinthians 11:12 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 381 (357)); Philippians 1:20; 1 Thessalonians 3:7; 2 Thessalonians 2:2, 15; Hebrews 11:39 (cf. Winer's Grammar, as above, also § 50, 3); ; 1 Peter 1:7; διά πολλῶν μαρτύρων, by the mediation (intervention) of many witnesses, they being summoned for that purpose (cf. Winers Grammar, 378 (354); A. V. among), 2 Timothy 2:2. Where it is evident from the religious conceptions of the Bible that God is the author or first cause: John 11:4; Acts 5:12; Ephesians 3:10; Ephesians 4:16; Colossians 2:19; 2 Timothy 1:6; Hebrews 10:10; 2 Peter 3:6; σῴζεσθαι διά πίστεως, Ephesians 2:8; συνεγείρεσθαι διά τῆς πίστεως, Colossians 2:12; δικαιοῦσθαι διά τῆς πίστεως, Galatians 2:16, cf. Romans 3:30; in the phrases διά τοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, and the like: John 1:17; John 3:17; Acts 13:38; Romans 1:5; Romans 5:9; 1 Corinthians 15:57; 1 John 4:9; Philippians 1:11; διά τοῦ εὐαγγελίου, 1 Corinthians 15:2; Ephesians 3:6; διά λόγου Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 1:23, cf. 1 Peter 1:3; διά νόμου, Romans 3:27; Romans 4:13; δἰ ἀποκαλύψεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, Galatians 1:12, cf. Galatians 1:15f; διά τοῦ (ἁγίου) πνεύματος, Romans 5:5; 1 Corinthians 7:8; Ephesians 3:16; πιστεύειν διά τίνος (see πιστεύω, 1 b. γ), John 1:7; 1 Corinthians 3:5; σημεῖον γέγονε δἰ αὐτῶν, Acts 4:16; ὁ λόγος δἰ ἀγγέλων λαληθείς, Hebrews 2:2, cf. Galatians 3:19; ὁ νόμος διά Μωϋσέως ἐδόθη, John 1:17; in passages in which something is said to have been spoken through the O. T. prophets, or some one of them (cf. Lightfoot Fresh Revision etc., p. 121f): Matthew 2:5, 17 L T Tr WH, Matthew 2:23; (Matthew 3:3 L T Tr WH); Matthew 4:14; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:17; Matthew 21:4; Matthew 24:15; Matthew 27:9; Acts 2:16; or to have been so written: Luke 18:31; with the added mention of the first cause: ὑπό τοῦ κυρίου διά τοῦ προφήτου, Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15, cf. Luke 1:70; Acts 1:16; Acts 28:25; Romans 1:2; in passages relating to the Logos: πάντα δἰ αὐτοῦ (i. e., through the Divine Logos (cf. Winer's Grammar, 379 (355))) ἐγένετο or ἐκτίσθη: John 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6 (where he is expressly distinguished from the first cause: ἐξ αὐτοῦ (Winer's Grammar, 419 (391))); Colossians 1:16 (Winer's Grammar, the passage cited), cf. Hebrews 1:2 (Philo de cherub. § 35). The instrumental cause and the principal are distinguished in 1 Corinthians 11:12 (διά τῆς γυναικός ... ἐκ τοῦ Θεοῦ); Galatians 1:1 (ἀπ' ἀνθρώπων ... δἰ ἀνθρώπου (cf. Winer's Grammar, 418 (390))).

It certainly can fit For by grace are ye saved because of faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

This changes the meaning as it could be written this way rather then the copy cat method.