TibiasDad
Active Member
That he communicated and understood Abraham is all that matters. The question is irrelevant.
Doug
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
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Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
False God's conditions salvation on His Grace
TibiasDad
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Faith/Belief are of Grace
TibiasDad
Active Member
John 3:16 doesn’t mention Grace, it specifically mentions believing. I didn’t say believing is necessary, God did through John. Grace is universally available, it is extended to all. The only remaining question is do we believe God will do what he says?
Doug
In my understanding of Christian Pre-Conception Existence (PCE) theology, no sinner has a free will. All sinners are enslaved to evil unless they are reborn which restores their free will which they lost in their own personal fall when they chose by their free will to rebel against GOD and become enslaved to sin against HIS warnings.
Thus our faith in HIM as our only saviour from evil must have been chosen as an unproven hope before we became enslaved to sin as we cannot by our own choice break the enslavement to sin that choosing sin brings us into.
IF GOD could cause real repentance in any, every, sinner to break their enslavement to sin then I contend that HE would do this for all HIS fallen creation but the fact that only believing sinners are not condemned but all non-believers are condemned already, John 3:18, tells me quite clearly that HE is unable to do this for everyone but only those who chose to put their faith in HIM as their saviour before they chose to sin, before they were flung into the earth as sinners, ie, before they were sown into, (not created as) mankind as the sinful people of the kingdom or the sinful people of the evil one, Matt 13:36-39.
TibiasDad
Active Member
They are affected by grace. Grace gives us something to believe in, not the capacity of belief itself. The capacity of trust is an attribute of our creation.
Doug
civic
Active Member
Yep
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
A scripture that is more than familiar to most of the visitors and posters here on BAM.
A scripture that is more than familiar to most during the debates on whether it is Grace or Salvation or Faith that are the gift from God.
But are you aware that the word being translated "through" faith here is not the only possible translation?
dia is the word. The Greek word.
διὰ
------------------------------------------------
Strong's Greek: 1223. διά (dia) -- through, by, because of, for the sake of
I. of place; through; often so in the Greek poets, once in the N. T. according to L T Tr WH viz. Luke 17:11 διά μέσον Σαμαρείας, for R G διά μέσου Σαμαρείας (but see μέσος, 2). II. of the Ground or Reason on account of which anything is or is not done; by reason of because of (German aus Grund).-------------------------------------
διά
(1) gen., through, used of place or medium, Mt. 7:13; Lk. 6:1; 2 Cor. 11:33; through, of time, during, in the course of, Heb. 2:15; Acts 5:19; through, of immediate agency, causation, instrumentality, by means of, by, Jn. 1:3; Acts 3:18; of means or manner, through, by, with, Lk. 8:4; 2 Cor...
www.billmounce.com
διά
Forms of the word
Dictionary:
διά
Greek transliteration:
dia
Simplified transliteration:
dia
Numbers
Strong's number:
1223
GK Number:
1328
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
667
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
prep
Gloss:
(gen.) through, by means of; (acc.) because of, for the sake of, therefore
Definition:
(1) gen., through, used of place or medium, Mt. 7:13; Lk. 6:1; 2 Cor. 11:33; through, of time, during, in the course of, Heb. 2:15; Acts 5:19; through, of immediate agency, causation, instrumentality, by means of, by, Jn. 1:3; Acts 3:18; of means or manner, through, by, with, Lk. 8:4; 2 Cor. 5:7; 8:8; of state or condition, in a state of, Rom. 4:11; (2) acc., used of causation which is not direct and immediate in the production of a result, on account of, because of, for the sake of, with a view to, Mk. 2:27; Jn. 1:31; rarely, through, while subject to a state of untoward circumstances, Gal. 4:13
-------------------------------------------
Understanding the Significance of Dia in Greek - Ministry Voice
Discover the significance of the Greek word "Dia" in the Bible, exploring its contextual meaning and relevance to biblical interpretation.
www.ministryvoice.com
What are the different translations of “Dia” in the Greek Bible?
In the Greek Bible, the word “dia” holds significant meaning in various contexts. Understanding the nuances of its translations can provide deeper insights into the biblical texts. “Dia” is a preposition in Greek that conveys a sense of through, by means of, on account of, because of, across, or during. Its versatility makes it a crucial word in the biblical narrative, as it appears frequently in different passages.The primary translation of “dia” in the Greek Bible is “through.” This translation is commonly used when referring to the means by which an action is accomplished. For example, in John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Here, “through” signifies Jesus as the intermediary or the channel through which one can approach God.
Another translation of “dia” is “because of” or “on account of.” This usage implies a causal relationship or reason behind a specific event or action. In Romans 5:12, it is written, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.” The word “through” here indicates the reason for the universal impact of sin and death on humanity.
-------------------------------------------
I could go down the list and post link after link that all show dia/ διά has multiple meansings and I submit had
the translators chosen another meaning that was accepted in all links
That "
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
would readFor by grace are ye saved because of faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
We would come away with a different understanding rather the the direction the translators were aiming for.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You know.... I am increasingly becoming aware that I am not smart enough to be a Christian or to be saved.
brightfame52
Active Member
Believing is by Grace and its not a condition, but an evidence. Only those who had been appointed to eternal life believe like these Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
TibiasDad
Active Member
“By grace” is a dative of means expression: it expresses the essential cause of salvation being both possible and performed.Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
A scripture that is more than familiar to most of the visitors and posters here on BAM.
A scripture that is more than familiar to most during the debates on whether it is Grace or Salvation or Faith that are the gift from God.
But are you aware that the word being translated "through" faith here is not the only possible translation?
dia is the word. The Greek word.
διὰ
------------------------------------------------
Strong's Greek: 1223. διά (dia) -- through, by, because of, for the sake of
I. of place; through; often so in the Greek poets, once in the N. T. according to L T Tr WH viz. Luke 17:11 διά μέσον Σαμαρείας, for R G διά μέσου Σαμαρείας (but see μέσος, 2). II. of the Ground or Reason on account of which anything is or is not done; by reason of because of (German aus Grund).
-------------------------------------
διά
(1) gen., through, used of place or medium, Mt. 7:13; Lk. 6:1; 2 Cor. 11:33; through, of time, during, in the course of, Heb. 2:15; Acts 5:19; through, of immediate agency, causation, instrumentality, by means of, by, Jn. 1:3; Acts 3:18; of means or manner, through, by, with, Lk. 8:4; 2 Cor...
διά
Forms of the word
Dictionary:
διά
Greek transliteration:
dia
Simplified transliteration:
dia
Numbers
Strong's number:
1223
GK Number:
1328
Statistics
Frequency in New Testament:
667
Morphology of Biblical Greek Tag:
prep
Gloss:
(gen.) through, by means of; (acc.) because of, for the sake of, therefore
Definition:
(1) gen., through, used of place or medium, Mt. 7:13; Lk. 6:1; 2 Cor. 11:33; through, of time, during, in the course of, Heb. 2:15; Acts 5:19; through, of immediate agency, causation, instrumentality, by means of, by, Jn. 1:3; Acts 3:18; of means or manner, through, by, with, Lk. 8:4; 2 Cor. 5:7; 8:8; of state or condition, in a state of, Rom. 4:11; (2) acc., used of causation which is not direct and immediate in the production of a result, on account of, because of, for the sake of, with a view to, Mk. 2:27; Jn. 1:31; rarely, through, while subject to a state of untoward circumstances, Gal. 4:13
-------------------------------------------
Understanding the Significance of Dia in Greek - Ministry Voice
Discover the significance of the Greek word "Dia" in the Bible, exploring its contextual meaning and relevance to biblical interpretation.
What are the different translations of “Dia” in the Greek Bible?
In the Greek Bible, the word “dia” holds significant meaning in various contexts. Understanding the nuances of its translations can provide deeper insights into the biblical texts. “Dia” is a preposition in Greek that conveys a sense of through, by means of, on account of, because of, across, or during. Its versatility makes it a crucial word in the biblical narrative, as it appears frequently in different passages.
The primary translation of “dia” in the Greek Bible is “through.” This translation is commonly used when referring to the means by which an action is accomplished. For example, in John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Here, “through” signifies Jesus as the intermediary or the channel through which one can approach God.
Another translation of “dia” is “because of” or “on account of.” This usage implies a causal relationship or reason behind a specific event or action. In Romans 5:12, it is written, “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.” The word “through” here indicates the reason for the universal impact of sin and death on humanity.
-------------------------------------------
I could go down the list and post link after link that all show dia/ διά has multiple meansings and I submit had
the translators chosen another meaning that was accepted in all links
That "
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
would read
For by grace are ye saved because of faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”
We would come away with a different understanding rather the the direction the translators were aiming for.
This is mimicked in the “through faith”, expressing the means through which grace operates. It is a parallel expression from the genitive case. It is the genitive way of expressing a dative idea.
The means of salvation is grace applying itself by means of/through faith.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
1) The capacity of belief is not of grace, the opportunity to believe in God’s promise is. The capacity of belief is part of the creation of mankind. The choice to believe is up to you. Grace gives us something in which to believe; we don’t deserve it, God didn’t have to do it.
2) If X is a necessary factor in Y, then X is a necessary condition. If X is not, then Y is possible without X.
Is salvation possible without Grace?
Is salvation possible without Faith?
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Believing is by Grace. Its not a condition either, that makes salvation by works.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Answer the questions, and quit acting like a JW with your static, repetitive responses.
Is grace a necessary condition for salvation?
Is faith a necessary condition for salvation?
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
Not in the sense you mean. We can only believe because of Grace, but only in the sense that without grace presenting the gospel to us, we would have nothing in which to believe!
God didn’t have to promise anything to us! That he did, is the beginning of grace, the movement of grace, and the goal of grace.
Doug
civic
Active Member
Amen
No sir...The capacity to believe against the force of our enslavement to sin is only achievable by grace...please reread Romans 1 about the truth being subdued by the lie in sinners. No sinner has any power to chose to repent by his own will or the idea the Jesus told us about being enslaved by evil is nonsense...
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Grace is totally necessary for a sinner to repent...and faith in the Son as the only salvation from sin is absolutely a condition of coming under HIS election promise of salvation from all choices to be evil.
Every sinner without faith in HIM is condemned already, Jn 3:18, before being sown, not created, into mankind, Matt 13:36-39...
Grace to SINNERS is an absolute necessity to overcome their enslavement to evil.
Faith by those with a true free will, ie, those not yet sinners enslaved by sin, is an absolute necessity for a person to come under the possibility of grace after they choose to be sinful in HIS sight and enslaved to evil.
Saving faith is only possible by a mind free from the enslavement of sin, ie, a mind in a pre-fallen state.
