Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".

[TibiasDad]

Yes, which Grace makes them alive, a new living spiritual entity. Thats what I have been saying. When Jesus said, the dead shall hear His voice and live Jn 5 25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. So at that point they are saved, and now can hear His voice and believe

1) Do you not see the order of events? They “hear” and the result is they “shall live”. It is not “they shall be made alive” and “then they shall hear.”

2) “Hearing” is not salvation, it is understanding the meaning of what you’re being told, as in “Do you hear me?”

3) It can also be a metaphor for the act of believing. That is the meaning of Jesus.

4) The context of the whole, is about Jesus going about his Father’s work, doing what his Father does. But the focus is on Jesus having authority over both physical and spiritual life, ie, being equal with God!


Doug

 

[TomL]

Not funny

Key point not rationally addressed

2 Peter 3:8–13 (LEB) — 8 Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that one day with the Lord is like a thousand years, and a thousand years is like one day. 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will disappear with a rushing noise, and the celestial bodies will be destroyed by being burned up, and the earth and the deeds done on it will be disclosed. 11 Because all these things are being destroyed in this way, what sort of people must you be in holy behavior and godliness, 12 while waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by being burned up and the celestial bodies will melt as they are consumed by heat! 13 But according to his promise, we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness resides.

You do not answer why he is being patient for them to repent when your theology holds this is solely accomplished by him having been predetermined before the foundation of the earth.

Did he forget what he determined?.

The verse quite clearly shows man with the ability to repent and God waiting on that repentance.

what you posted

• Why does the Lord delay? To avoid unnecessary perishing of any of “you” (the beloved).
• How does this avid perishing? Delay creates more time for “you” (the beloved) to “reach repentance”.

Hello, total inability, which Calvinism/reformed theology holds to, claims man personally cannot repent.

And you have a comment that makes man's personal repentance necessary for salvation (to avoid perishing)

Yet another issue with a theology that makes salvation solely dependant on the work of God

Yet still another issue for that type of theology

2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.

When that theology holds that God determined everything before the foundation of the earth and that determination has most of humanity in the reprobate category, assured of perishing we have a clear case of God working against what he wants.

Do you now see and understand the problem with such a theology?

 

[brightfame52]

No, we believe that God is willing to save us, and he does!

Doug

From what I read of your posts, you promote salvation by the will of man.

 

[brightfame52]

No I believe it was God's will to save those who believe.

Right you believe that salvation is conditioned on believing, thats works. Believing is conditioned on salvation, that's grace.

 

[TomL]

Right you believe that salvation is conditioned on believing, thats works. Believing is conditioned on salvation, that's grace.

Not according to scripture

Romans 4:4–5 (LEB) — 4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited according to grace, but according to his due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,

Romans 5:1–2 (LEB) — 1 Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 4:1–3 (LEB) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.”

 

[brightfame52]

Duh the Spirit regenerates by indwelling





παλιγγενεσία -ας, ἡ; (palingenesia), N. regeneration; renewal. LTW παλιγγενεσίᾳ (Regeneration).

Noun Usage

1. regeneration — the act that results in something (which already exists) coming into being afresh, or starting over; especially used of the soul or the earth being completely refashioned. Related Topic: Regeneration.



Rick Brannan, ed., Lexham Research Lexicon of the Greek New Testament (Lexham Research Lexicons; Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2020).

Ezekiel 36:26–27 (LEB) — 26 And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them.

That change in man is effected by the indwelling of the Spirit.

And the definition of regeneration given is clearly harmonious with what is stated in the Ezekiel passage.

Those events aren't regeneration. Cornelius was regenerated way before the Acts 10, in fact that's why God sent him the Gospel to hear and believe. Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
God had him spiritually prepared. The word hear means to hear and understand

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Cornelius was of God b4 he ever heard Peter and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. God arranged for Peter to go to Cornelius to hear the Gospel, for conversion purposes. The Gospel mainly is for the conversion of the elect after they are regenerated. Its not for the lost in sin.

 

[atpollard]

Hello, total inability, which Calvinism/reformed theology holds to, claims man personally cannot repent.

Romans 8:30 … but God cannot save you if Jesus returns and the world ends before He calls you (or before you are born … which was the point of AD 100).

• Romans 8:30 [ESV] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Thus …
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any (of His ‘beloved’) to perish, but all (of His ‘beloved’) to come to repentance (Romans 8:30 style).

 

[brightfame52]

1) Do you not see the order of events? They “hear” and the result is they “shall live”. It is not “they shall be made alive” and “then they shall hear.”

2) “Hearing” is not salvation, it is understanding the meaning of what you’re being told, as in “Do you hear me?”

3) It can also be a metaphor for the act of believing. That is the meaning of Jesus.

4) The context of the whole, is about Jesus going about his Father’s work, doing what his Father does. But the focus is on Jesus having authority over both physical and spiritual life, ie, being equal with God!


Doug

They hear and live, just like when the dead in their graves at the sound of His voice they going hear and live and stand in the Judgment. In case you didnt know, for a dead person to hear is a not natural. Was it natural for the dead lazarus in Jn 11 to hear and live ? Or was it a Miracle ?

 

[TomL]

Those events aren't regeneration. Cornelius was regenerated way before the Acts 10, in fact that's why God sent him the Gospel to hear and believe. Acts 15:7

And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
God had him spiritually prepared. The word hear means to hear and understand

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Cornelius was of God b4 he ever heard Peter and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. God arranged for Peter to go to Cornelius to hear the Gospel, for conversion purposes. The Gospel mainly is for the conversion of the elect after they are regenerated. Its not for the lost in sin.

Sorry, that is totally erroneous.

Belief in Christ is necessary before one may receive the spirit.

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

Not according to scripture

Romans 4:4–5 (LEB) — 4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited according to grace, but according to his due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,

Romans 5:1–2 (LEB) — 1 Therefore, because we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

Romans 4:1–3 (LEB) — 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.”

Believing is evidence of spiritual life. The natural man is dead in unbelief. Abraham believing God was evidence he was a righteous regenerated man
Did you realize believing God is a redemptive blessing 1 Pet 1:20-21

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Man naturally doesnt believe in God, he doesnt even seek the True God Rom 3:11 let alone believe in Him

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, that is totally erroneous.

Belief in Christ is necessary before one may receive the spirit.

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius was regenerated so God sent him the Gospel to hear and believe, and so it is with all the elect, God sends them the Gospel when its time for them to hear and believe.

 

[TomL]

Cornelius was regenerated so God sent him the Gospel to hear and believe, and so it is with all the elect, God sends them the Gospel when its time for them to hear and believe.

Sorry, that is totally erroneous.

Belief in Christ is necessary before one may receive the spirit.

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

and one cannot be regenerated (made alive) without the indwelling Spirit

2 Corinthians 3:6 (LEB) — 6 who also makes us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit, for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 8:10–11 (LEB) — 10 But if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also make alive your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you.

 

[TomL]

Believing is evidence of spiritual life. The natural man is dead in unbelief. Abraham believing God was evidence he was a righteous regenerated man
Did you realize believing God is a redemptive blessing 1 Pet 1:20-21

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Man naturally doesnt believe in God, he doesnt even seek the True God Rom 3:11 let alone believe in Him

Again, you cannot receive the Spirit without faith in Christ.

Acts 2:38 (LEB) — 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Calvinists believe this verse is the proof that it is by God that one is chosen for salvation and that God gives you the necessary gift of faith that makes that truly happen.

Calvinism goes pretty far beyond that statement implying that we were Irresistibly saved - based on our inability to refuse a direct act of God in enabling FAITH in us.

The more Biblical position seems to be that God DOES ENABLE FAITH by His WORD to us (Rom 10:17), but it's still OUR FREE WILL DECISION to repent (which is only possible under conviction of SIN) and call out to God IN FAITH for cleansing through Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10).

"Calvinism" isn't "God's Word" - it's nothing but "Theology". Some of it is TRUE, and some is just hot air.

 

[civic]

Calvinism goes pretty far beyond that statement implying that we were Irresistibly saved - based on our inability to refuse a direct act of God in enabling FAITH in us.

The more Biblical position seems to be that God DOES ENABLE FAITH by His WORD to us (Rom 10:17), but it's still OUR FREE WILL DECISION to repent (which is only possible under conviction of SIN) and call out to God IN FAITH for cleansing through Jesus' SIN OFFERING (Isa 53:10).

"Calvinism" isn't "God's Word" - it's nothing but "Theology". Some of it is TRUE, and some is just hot air.

ditto

 

[TibiasDad]

From what I read of your posts, you promote salvation by the will of man.

You cannot interpret my posts but by means of your blind assumptions. Salvation is by Grace by means of faith in God’s gracious promise. It is by Grace because we do not deserve it; it is by Grace because God is not, and cannot be obligated to act on anyone’s behalf outside of his own desire to do so. Thus, man’s actions, desires, and motives are irrelevant and ineffectual in the process. The only thing that necessitates our actions is God’s insistence that we believe that he will do what he promises. He sets that as the only prerequisite to him keeping his promise.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

They hear and live, just like when the dead in their graves at the sound of His voice they going hear and live and stand in the Judgment. In case you didnt know, for a dead person to hear is a not natural. Was it natural for the dead lazarus in Jn 11 to hear and live ? Or was it a Miracle ?

If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is any indication, the dead both speak and hear, as well as feel and remember.

The physical aspect of human beings is not the living aspect. God breathed into the man (the inanimate body) and he became a living soul. The living soul, whether here or in eternity is the entity that hears and speaks. When Lazarus was raised, and he heard “Lazarus, come forth!”, it was the spirit Lazarus that heard and by Jesus’s power re-entered the flesh and reanimated it.

Doug

 

[brightfame52]

You cannot interpret my posts but by means of your blind assumptions. Salvation is by Grace by means of faith in God’s gracious promise. It is by Grace because we do not deserve it; it is by Grace because God is not, and cannot be obligated to act on anyone’s behalf outside of his own desire to do so. Thus, man’s actions, desires, and motives are irrelevant and ineffectual in the process. The only thing that necessitates our actions is God’s insistence that we believe that he will do what he promises. He sets that as the only prerequisite to him keeping his promise.

Doug

It's simple you condition salvation on man!

 

[brightfame52]

If the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is any indication, the dead both speak and hear, as well as feel and remember.

The physical aspect of human beings is not the living aspect. God breathed into the man (the inanimate body) and he became a living soul. The living soul, whether here or in eternity is the entity that hears and speaks. When Lazarus was raised, and he heard “Lazarus, come forth!”, it was the spirit Lazarus that heard and by Jesus’s power re-entered the flesh and reanimated it.

Doug

Could the Rich man communicate with his brothers on earth?

 

[TibiasDad]

It's simple you condition salvation on man!

God conditions salvation on belief- “whosoever believes shall not perish”, ie, if you don’t believe you perish. By any reasonable measure of language and logic, belief is a condition of not perishing. It is God’s condition, not ours!

Doug