That is an affront to God.
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
- Thread starter MTMattie
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I agree, but still it is an affront to God. In fact, determinism, compatibilism, Augustinianism, Calvinism all make God's act of creation of this physical world a joke. If God mandated, decreed, determined everything that happens, then there is no reason for creating this world. He could have simply created the Calvinist elect for eternal life and the nonelect for eternal condemnation. This physical world serves no purpose whatsoever in the outcome.
Compatibilism has predetermined free will. By Arminian Compatibilism I mean the free will part is libertarian ie non-predetermined by God.
civic
Active Member
yes which all calvinists deny.
atpollard
Active Member
Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt by:
- God (Hard Determinism)?
- His brothers (Free Will)?
- Both (Compatibalism)?
Was that sinful act “determined by God before the particular person who committed the act was ever born”, or did God just get REALLY lucky that things worked out? … so that:
- Joseph went to Egypt
- All of Israel followed him
- The Israelites became slaves
- God sent Moses to free the slaves
- Israel received the PASSOVER
- Jesus could explain his mission as …
- The Passover Lamb of God
- The Passover Bread as his body becoming our Communion Bread
- The Passover Cup as his blood becoming our Communion Wine
Is “both” really such an “affront to God”?
If you want to affirm compatibilism, you have to accept that every sin, every act no matter how disgusting, i.e. rape, child molestation, mass murder, was determined by God before anyone was ever born, but somehow free will is involved as well.
I think the idea that God caused the evil doing of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers is indeed an affront to God. What God did was to use the evil that was committed by his brothers. God throughout the Bible is described as making use of some evil committed by some to bring about His own purpose. We see that again and again throughout biblical history. God did not cause the evil that men do, God used the evil that men do for good. That is the message of Genesis 50:20.
Compatibilism has all hard determinism, even the supposed free will. Because even our supposed free will is determined by the previous domino of a hard prearranged set.
Yes. But the evil was Libertarian.
Partially. But God can compensate. If his brothers decided to be righteous, then God would have chosen some other way to get him to Egypt. But God foreknows an open future, so was able to accurately prophesy it.
Esther 4:14 (KJV) For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; ...
... but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
God chose Aaron as the spokesman after anger with Moses for denying it:
Exodus 4:13 (KJV) And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
Exodus 4:14 (KJV) And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
And more work-arounds:
Jonah resisted and God sent a whale to change his mind (Jonah 1–2).
Gentiles were grafted when the Jews resisted (Rom 11).
Yes, since you believe free will is really a prearranged domino effect.
civic
Active Member
- His brothers (Free Will)
There is no sense trying to answer such a question.
It was a part of God's plan since He knew beforehand that it would happen. He foreknew that even before all creation.
Agreed.
So is that not really a mixture of both without both existing at the same time and being compatible?
In other words, if determinism and free will do not both exist in an event, we do not have an example of compatibilism.
brightfame52
Active Member
Mans will is never Free from the Sovereign Predetermined will of God, yet man makes a responsible deliberate choice
If man's will is never free from the Sovereign Predetermined will of God, then there is no such thing as sin. Sin is free will disobedience.
Man's evil acts are from man, not God
James 1:13 (NASB 95) — 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
And man has the capability mentioned
Deuteronomy 30:11 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you.
Deuteronomy 30:14 (LEB) — 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it.
Deuteronomy 30:19 (LEB) — 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring,
Romans 10:8–13 (LEB) — 8 But what does it say? “The word is near to you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who is rich to all who call upon him. 13 For “everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Luke 11:28 (LEB) — 28 But he said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and follow it!”
Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.
Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!
Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you. 31 Throw away from yourselves all of your transgressions that you committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and new spirit, and so why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of the dying,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “And so repent and live!”
Zechariah 1:6 (LEB) — 6 However, did not my words and my regulations which I commanded my servants the prophets overtake your ancestors? And they repented and said, ‘Yahweh of hosts planned to do with us according to our ways, and according to our deeds so he has dealt with us.’ ” ’ ”
Matthew 11:21 (LEB) — 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
Acts 8:22 (LEB) — 22 Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and ask the Lord if perhaps the intent of your heart may be forgiven you!”
Acts 17:30 (LEB) — 30 Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent,
2 Corinthians 7:9 (LEB) — 9 now I rejoice, not that you were grieved, but that you were grieved to repentance. For you were grieved according to the will of God, so that you suffered loss in no way through us.
2 Corinthians 7:10 (LEB) — 10 For grief according to the will of God brings about a repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted, but worldly grief brings about death.
2 Peter 3:9 (LEB) — 9 The Lord is not delaying the promise, as some consider slowness, but is being patient toward you, because he does not want any to perish, but all to come to repentance.
