That is an affront to God.
Ephesians 2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” with a dollop of "free will".
- Thread starter MTMattie
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I agree, but still it is an affront to God. In fact, determinism, compatibilism, Augustinianism, Calvinism all make God's act of creation of this physical world a joke. If God mandated, decreed, determined everything that happens, then there is no reason for creating this world. He could have simply created the Calvinist elect for eternal life and the nonelect for eternal condemnation. This physical world serves no purpose whatsoever in the outcome.
Compatibilism has predetermined free will. By Arminian Compatibilism I mean the free will part is libertarian ie non-predetermined by God.
civic
Active Member
yes which all calvinists deny.
atpollard
Active Member
Joseph was sold into slavery in Egypt by:
- God (Hard Determinism)?
- His brothers (Free Will)?
- Both (Compatibalism)?
Was that sinful act “determined by God before the particular person who committed the act was ever born”, or did God just get REALLY lucky that things worked out? … so that:
- Joseph went to Egypt
- All of Israel followed him
- The Israelites became slaves
- God sent Moses to free the slaves
- Israel received the PASSOVER
- Jesus could explain his mission as …
- The Passover Lamb of God
- The Passover Bread as his body becoming our Communion Bread
- The Passover Cup as his blood becoming our Communion Wine
Is “both” really such an “affront to God”?
If you want to affirm compatibilism, you have to accept that every sin, every act no matter how disgusting, i.e. rape, child molestation, mass murder, was determined by God before anyone was ever born, but somehow free will is involved as well.
I think the idea that God caused the evil doing of Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers is indeed an affront to God. What God did was to use the evil that was committed by his brothers. God throughout the Bible is described as making use of some evil committed by some to bring about His own purpose. We see that again and again throughout biblical history. God did not cause the evil that men do, God used the evil that men do for good. That is the message of Genesis 50:20.
Compatibilism has all hard determinism, even the supposed free will. Because even our supposed free will is determined by the previous domino of a hard prearranged set.
Yes. But the evil was Libertarian.
Partially. But God can compensate. If his brothers decided to be righteous, then God would have chosen some other way to get him to Egypt. But God foreknows an open future, so was able to accurately prophesy it.
Esther 4:14 (KJV) For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place; ...
... but thou and thy father's house shall be destroyed: and who knoweth whether thou art come to the kingdom for such a time as this?
God chose Aaron as the spokesman after anger with Moses for denying it:
Exodus 4:13 (KJV) And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send.
Exodus 4:14 (KJV) And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
And more work-arounds:
Jonah resisted and God sent a whale to change his mind (Jonah 1–2).
Gentiles were grafted when the Jews resisted (Rom 11).
Yes, since you believe free will is really a prearranged domino effect.
civic
Active Member
- His brothers (Free Will)
There is no sense trying to answer such a question.
It was a part of God's plan since He knew beforehand that it would happen. He foreknew that even before all creation.
Agreed.
So is that not really a mixture of both without both existing at the same time and being compatible?
In other words, if determinism and free will do not both exist in an event, we do not have an example of compatibilism.
