Educating unitarians on biblical worship

[Runningman]

May we know what Bible translation you are quoting Runningman as I find mine different to what you quote.

John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
John 4:23 "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers.

I meant John 5:22,23, not John 4:23,24, and I was using the Berean Study Bible, but John 4:23,24 is another one I quote a lot. It's the only teaching on who to worship in the whole Bible and only mentions the Father as the object of that worship. See how that is not the same as what trinitarians teach about who to worship?

 

[mikesw]

I meant John 5:22,23, not John 4:23,24, and I was using the Berean Study Bible, but John 4:23,24 is another one I quote a lot. It's the only teaching on who to worship in the whole Bible and only mentions the Father as the object of that worship. See how that is not the same as what trinitarians teach about who to worship?

so you really expect Jesus to blatantly say "I am incarnate of God?" That was not the focus of his message and they would have tried all the harder to stone him. You really have a knack for letting scripture mislead you.

 

[Runningman]

so you really expect Jesus to blatantly say "I am incarnate of God?" That was not the focus of his message and they would have tried all the harder to stone him. You really have a knack for letting scripture mislead you.

I would expect anyone who believed Jesus was God incarnate to give any hint they believed such. No one ever said "God came down and became a man" in regards to Jesus. The closest thing we have in scripture regarding an incarnation is regarding the non-Judeo Christian of pagans, which is where you "god incarnate" theology came from.

Incarnations have roots in paganism, not Judeo Christian theology.

Acts 14
11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices in the Lycaonian language: “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates, hoping to offer a sacrifice along with the crowds.

 

[mikesw]

I would expect anyone who believed Jesus was God incarnate to give any hint they believed such. No one ever said "God came down and became a man" in regards to Jesus. The closest thing we have in scripture regarding an incarnation is regarding the non-Judeo Christian of pagans, which is where you "god incarnate" theology came from.

Incarnations have roots in paganism, not Judeo Christian theology.

Acts 14
11When the crowds saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices in the Lycaonian language: “The gods have come down to us in human form!” 12Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul they called Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13The priest of Zeus, whose temple was just outside the city, brought bulls and wreaths to the city gates, hoping to offer a sacrifice along with the crowds.

You expect a certain incantation by scripture to convince you who Jesus is. No unitarian magic words have to be shared by scripture to make Jesus's incarnation real. You have to deny too much to make your belief system seem real. Then you have to equate God to pagan gods as your best argument against Jesus. Nor will you face the challenge of proper exegesis to expose your misconceptions. That is willfulness disregard.

The worst thing about your post is that John 1 says the very thing that you deny is said. I know you are trying to get clever with your responses but it just shows your unwillingness to seek the true Christ. I have only a vague idea why you would go the path you have taken. You sought out the opposition to the Christian doctrine as your first step of inquiry and thought you found something -- probably because it was the only level of thinking you could obtain. Thus, you took on a novel belief instead of relying on the testimony of 2000 years.

 

[Runningman]

You expect a certain incantation by scripture to convince you who Jesus is. No unitarian magic words have to be shared by scripture to make Jesus's incarnation real. You have to deny too much to make your belief system seem real. Then you have to equate God to pagan gods as your best argument against Jesus. Nor will you face the challenge of proper exegesis to expose your misconceptions. That is willfulness disregard.

The worst thing about your post is that John 1 says the very thing that you deny is said. I know you are trying to get clever with your responses but it just shows your unwillingness to seek the true Christ. I have only a vague idea why you would go the path you have taken. You sought out the opposition to the Christian doctrine as your first step of inquiry and thought you found something -- probably because it was the only level of thinking you could obtain. Thus, you took on a novel belief instead of relying on the testimony of 2000 years.

The only mention of a god coming down in human form was espoused by pagans who believe in fake do-nothing gods, which is the same kind of thing you're saying. I think the only thing you believe in the Bible is John 1:1 as long as it is totally isolated from the rest of context.

 

[mikesw]

The only mention of a god coming down in human form was espoused by pagans who believe in fake do-nothing gods, which is the same kind of thing you're saying. I think the only thing you believe in the Bible is John 1:1 as long as it is totally isolated from the rest of context.

If you want to say that Paul followed Pagan thought, you have rejected the testimony of scripture. I suggest you will be more comfortable following Baal.

 

[Runningman]

If you want to say that Paul followed Pagan thought, you have rejected the testimony of scripture. I suggest you will be more comfortable following Baal.

Paul never mentioned any belief about a god coming down in human form.

 

[Capbook]

Updated American Standard Version

John 5:23in order that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

English Standard Version

John 5:23that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

The New International Version (1984)

John 5:23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

American Standard Version

John 5:23that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him.

Thanks TomL.
If one does not honor the Son also does not honor the Father, it appear to me and a proof that the two are co-equal.

 

[Capbook]

I meant John 5:22,23, not John 4:23,24, and I was using the Berean Study Bible, but John 4:23,24 is another one I quote a lot. It's the only teaching on who to worship in the whole Bible and only mentions the Father as the object of that worship. See how that is not the same as what trinitarians teach about who to worship?

Runningman, it was Jesus who state John 4:23,24, then why Jesus did not stop His believers when they "worship" Him with the same "proskuneo?"
If Jesus is not worthy of worship, He should have said, "No, didn't I taught you to worship the Father only." Runningman?

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

 

[TomL]

Thanks TomL.
If one does not honor the Son also does not honor the Father, it appear to me and a proof that the two are co-equal.

You are welcome.

 

[TomL]

I meant John 5:22,23, not John 4:23,24, and I was using the Berean Study Bible, but John 4:23,24 is another one I quote a lot. It's the only teaching on who to worship in the whole Bible and only mentions the Father as the object of that worship. See how that is not the same as what trinitarians teach about who to worship?

John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Phil 2:9–11 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Matt 2:11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Rev 5:11–14 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

 

[Runningman]

John 5:22–23 (NASB 95) — 22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Phil 2:9–11 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Matt 2:11 After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Matt 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.

Matt 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Luke 24:52 And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

John 9:38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.

Rev 5:11–14 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Nope, the only verse in the Bible about who to worship is explicitly stated to be the Father in John 4:23,24. The other verses aren't about worshipping Jesus as God. Some of them you also distort the context.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman, it was Jesus who state John 4:23,24, then why Jesus did not stop His believers when they "worship" Him with the same "proskuneo?"
If Jesus is not worthy of worship, He should have said, "No, didn't I taught you to worship the Father only." Runningman?

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.

Worship just means bowing or kneeling in context of Matt 28:17, not about the kind of spirit and truth worship Jesus taught to be given to the Father only. See the difference between bowing and spirit and truth worship?

 

[TomL]

Nope, the only verse in the Bible about who to worship is explicitly stated to be the Father in John 4:23,24. The other verses aren't about worshipping Jesus as God. Some of them you also distort the context.

You have a serious rejection of scripture.

Where we see men plainly worshipping Christ.

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
and even those who at that time were greater than man worshipping Christ
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

In denying Christ, you deny God the Father.

Phil 2:9–11 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Runningman]

You have a serious rejection of scripture.

Where we see men plainly worshipping Christ.

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
and even those who at that time were greater than man worshipping Christ
Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

In denying Christ, you deny God the Father.

Phil 2:9–11 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

None of those are teachings about worshipping Jesus in spirit and truth. It's true Jesus was bowed to, but never bowed to as God. You're in serious denial I think.

 

[TomL]

None of those are teachings about worshipping Jesus in spirit and truth. It's true Jesus was bowed to, but never bowed to as God. You're in serious denial I think.

You ignore scripture and

You have a serious rejection of scripture.

Where we see men plainly worshipping Christ.

Mat 28:17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
and even those who at that time were greater than man worshipping Christ

Heb 1:6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

In denying Christ, you deny God the Father.

Phil 2:9–11 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.