TibiasDad
Active Member
1) It’s not my personal doctrine!
2) I do not earn eternal life by worshipping or doing anything else! Salvation cannot be earned!
3) honor is a nuanced synonym of worship according to Webster.
Doug
Educating unitarians on biblical worship
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
2) I do not earn eternal life by worshipping or doing anything else! Salvation cannot be earned!
3) honor is a nuanced synonym of worship according to Webster.
Doug
Runningman
Active Member
But Jesus can be honored without being worshipped just like others can be honored without being worshipped. I feel you probably know this, but you're abusing the distinction between the word honor and worship.
Wouldn't you say honoring one's father and mother would be honoring their judgements? Trusting their judgements in what is right and wrong and obeying them? Same thing going on here as with Jesus.
Ephesians 6
2“Honor your father and mother” (which is the first commandment with a promise),
Runningman
Active Member
Well, you certainly seem to have a special definition for honoring Jesus than you do for honoring others. Just your bias in action I am sure.
TibiasDad
Active Member
But it doesn’t say honor your parents as much as God! Nor do our parents say honor me as you honor God. Jesus did! I did not honor my parents (as they rest in peace) with the same devotion that I give to God. My parents did not die for me in the way Jesus did. To honor God is to worship him. To worship him is to honor him. To say this about my parents would be hyperbole.
Again, no mere human being is worthy of being equal of honor as God: but Jesus said he was, even if this is a specific circumstance (which I don’t believe it is) as you infer, that cannot be claimed by any mere mortal. Jesus said he was worthy of Godly honor.
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
No, I honor Jesus just as I do God, just as he said I should. No man is worthy of that level of honor.
Doug
Runningman
Active Member
This doesn't follow to a conclusion about worship. The text we are referring to is specifically in context of judgement.
In plain terms, this means honor Jesus because of the authority to judge that he has been assigned. Of course, God isn't assigned the right to judge, right? God already inherently has authority to judge, there isn't a greater authority who can assign judgements to the Father.
John 5
22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
TibiasDad
Active Member
It is still the same level of honor that Jesus is worthy of that would have been given to God! That’s the point! Only one who is God is worthy of the honor that the Father commands. That’s why Thomas declared “My Lord and my God” (or literally the Lord of me and the God of me! Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.) He was honoring Jesus as he would the Father.
Doug
Runningman
Active Member
We will also honor the judgements of the saints who will judge the world because of the judgement that has been assigned to them just as we honor the Father's judgements. Your argument just isn't consistent and is thus not convincing. What you grossly lack is just any teaching or commandment or example of Jesus being worshipped as God.
1 Corinthians 6
2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
Um, worship is a form of honor
Worshiping God involves reverence, adoration, and a heartfelt response to His nature and works, recognizing Him as the Creator and sustainer of all.
Definition
Worship can be defined as the reverence or adoration shown toward God, characterized by holding Him in high esteem and giving Him a place of importance in our lives. The term "worship" originates from the Old English word "weorþscipe," meaning "worth-ship," which signifies giving worth to something or someone. In a biblical context, worship is an act of honoring God, acknowledging His holiness, and expressing gratitude for His grace and mercy.How To honor God, one can engage in various practices that reflect His worth and character. Here are some practical ways to honor God:
- Make time for God: Dedicate time each day for prayer, Bible study, and meditation to cultivate a close relationship with Him.
Praise God: Sing hymns, read Psalms, and express gratitude for His goodness and guidance.
Honor God with your talents: Use your God-given gifts and abilities to serve others and glorify Him.
Honor God with your body: Live in a sexually pure manner, as it is a reflection of God's holiness.
Honor God with your finances: Give of your income and manage your finances in a way that honors God.
Honor God with your heart: Put God first in your thoughts and actions, and express love for Him through your heart attitude.
These actions not only honor God but also reflect His character and values in our daily lives.
TibiasDad
Active Member
I believe John 20:28 has been shown to you, but if not, I do so now.
“…my Lord and my God!”
Greek: Ὁ Κύριός μου καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.
Literal translation: the Lord of me and the God of me
QED
Doug
Runningman
Active Member
I believe you know the Father is alone the true God. The Greek word monos means alone. This leaves no trinity options for you. Don't even try to argue your way out of this because you can't change it. You also know that humans in the Bible can be called theos (god) without being God the same way the Father is. So either you're trying to contradict John 17:3 or you misunderstand the general context.
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
oops. you missed John 17:5 again. sloppy exegesis.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You are trying to downgrade John 5:23 into “respect,” like honoring parents. That doesn’t survive the text.
“That all may honor the Son just as (kathōs) they honor the Father.” — John 5:23
The Greek kathōs = in the same manner / to the same degree / exactly as.
Not similar.
Not kind of.
Not lesser.
The same way.
MEANING>>>>>>>>>
So if the Father receives worship… the Son must receive the same.
Otherwise you are disobeying the verse.
Because We honor parents ... we do NOT worship them
We honor kings ...we do NOT worship them
We honor prophets ...we do NOT worship them
Yet with Jesus:
People bow to Him See Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, John 9:38
People pray to Him Acts 7:59 (Stephen: “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit”)
People call on His name in worship See 1 Corinthians 1:2
Angels worship Him See Hebrews 1:6
If “honor” only meant respect, none of that would be allowed.
If Jesus is not to be worshipped, then all those people in Scripture committed idolatry.
But God never rebukes them. Instead, heaven commands it.
So either...
Scripture promotes idolatry
OR
Jesus truly shares the divine honor of God
Only one of those works.
Runningman
Active Member
You've provided nothing convincing as many others are bowed to in the Bible.
Here's something convincing, though, Jesus won't get any true worship according to the Bible:
John4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Now that we have schooled trinitarians on proper Biblical worship, this thread is settled.
dwight92070
Active Member
Jesus CANNOT be honored without being worshiped, no more than God can be honored without being worshiped. Jesus told us to honor him as we honor the Father. We honor the Father as God = therefore we honor Jesus as God. Jesus said, "If these remain silent, the rocks will cry out."
dwight92070
Active Member
What a laugh! Unless you repent, He certainly won't get any worship out of you, except when you're forced to bend your knee and confess with your tongue that Jesus is Lord, i.e. Yahweh - Philippians 2:9-11 and Isaiah 45:23 and verse 21
All one has to do is to read Revelation 5 to see that ALL CREATION worships Jesus, AND the Father, since they are God.
Last edited:
Runningman
Active Member
Sometimes just asking the right questions helps people see things clearly. How does one honor the judgements of Jesus?
Runningman
Active Member
The Bible never says what your commentary does. That's an issue. If your theory is true, then why is Jesus not getting any glory in Philippians 2:11? It says "to the glory of God the Father."
And Jesus isn't being worshipped in Revelation 5.
TibiasDad
Active Member
You are ignoring the fact that I gave you a passage that directly calls Jesus ὁ Θεός, the God; a type of passage that you said couldn’t be found.
Jesus did not correct Thomas, didn’t rebuke him as the angel in Rev 1 rebuked John.
Again, Jesus says he was worthy of the same honor as the Father. Only God is worthy of such honor, and by claiming to be worthy of it, he was saying he was God too- which was what the Jewish leaders accused him of saying by calling himself the Son of God and thereby making himself equal with God! John 5:18
Doug
TibiasDad
Active Member
13Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Sure sounds like Jesus, the Lamb, was being worshipped by “every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea” as well as “the four living creatures…and the elders”!
Doug
