Commandments of God
- Thread starter Jamie Russell CME
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Brakelite
Active member
Covenants were made as a remedy for sin. Sin was transgression against the law...always...and sinners needed grace, promises, hope. Hence covenants. But Israel rebelled against the covenant. They didn't keep it. They bargained and lost. But God was faithful, long-suffering, patient, and made a new covenant. A new remedy for sin. It wasn't the law of God that was nailed to the cross. That law identified sin, for without the law there is no knowledge of sin. What was nailed to the cross was the Remedy.
civic
Well-known member
Yes its why they still to this day are reminded of the Exodus and teach it to their children. And this below helps us remember.
Deut 6:6-9 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.
Colossians 2:14
having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
1. BDAG (3rd Edition): Of the Mosaic law (dogma, page 254).
2. Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: of the rules and requirements of the law of Moses (dogma, page 154).
101G
Well-known member
thanks for the reply, but 101G must disagree. if you call healing is spiritual, then all things are spiritual. which means you should not pray on the sabbath? see how IGNORANT that is. so what you said 101G cannot agree with.
101G
Brakelite
Active member
The greek word “cheirographon” translated “handwriting” signifies in the greek of a collection of debt paid for by Christ on the cross, a debt which was collected via the ceremonial laws mentioned in verse 16. In contrast to the Law of God, which was “holy, just and good” (Rom. 7:12), and the Sabbath which is “for man” (Mark 2:27), this note was “against” man and “contrary” to man. There are also ordinances described in verses 20-22, such as “touch not, taste not, handle not” which seems reminiscent of traditions incorporated by the Jews via ancient traditions and commandments of men (cf. Matt. 15:2, 3-10, Titus 1:14). The warning against “self-imposed religion, false humility and neglect of the body” (verse 23) seems to point to asceticism. There was afterall a syncretistic mingling of Gnostic and Jewish rites as described in this letter (cf. vv. 16 and 18). Nonetheless, cheirographon seems connected specifically to the Jewish ordinances mentioned in verse 16
So these two Greek lexicons are in error?
Brakelite
Active member
No. They are correct in linking Colossians 2:14-16 with the law of Moses. Where you are confused is thinking the law of Moses that was nailed to the cross is the same as the moral laws that was written by the finger of God on tables of some. They are two distinctly different laws, with two very different and distinct purposes.
The law of Moses includes the Ten Commandments.
Brakelite
Active member
I repeat, because you aren't getting it. I'm not proposing some crazy heresy, it is the gospel and was God's plan from the beginning. His law, the Ten Commandments which in essence is a summary of the "two greatest commandments" of love for God and others, is eternal and irrevocable and is a revelation and written transcript of His character of love. That law was not nailed to the cross.
What was nailed to the cross was God's remedy for the transgression of His law of love. The remedy for the sin problem was the sacrifices and rituals of the sanctuary, culminating in Christ Himself, the ultimate remedy for the debt owed. This wonderful gospel does not excuse our sin, but had a twofold effect... It brings forgiveness for past offences, and with the resurrection, the power to overcome temptation in the future. That's the gospel. God has not removed His law which is holy, just, and good, and the measure of God character in the judgement. Changing laws and replacing them is the common practise of governments who are fickle and acting only to preserve their power... God is God who changes not... He hadn't lowered the standard to meet man's expectations, but lifts man to meet with His.
I quote from more than one Greek lexicon to back up my claim (you have quoted none), but you assert that I am the one not getting it.
Get real.
Brakelite
Active member
Read again post 98.
Se post 100.
Brakelite
Active member
KJV Hebrews 8:6-8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
I have some questions, based on the texts above, and based on the premise believed by many that the ten commandments are the old covenant that was done away with, needing to be replaced with a new one.
First question. Please show me what is faulty with the ten commandments. Paul said that God's Commandments were holy, just, and good. Where's the fault? How can the law of God be holy and faulty at the same time?
Second question. Please find me within the ten commandments promises that need improvement. Apparently, this old covenant, whatever it is, incorporated some poor promises. Where are they in the ten commandments? In the ten commandments we have this...
KJV Ephesians 6:1-3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
I would really like summertime to tell me what is faulty with the above promise.
Third question. We are told that whatever it is, the old covenant was to be abolished. Now of the ten commandments were to be abolished, people need to explain why Paul would be so contradictory to say...
KJV Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Was Paul saying, as so many Christians believe, "Do we make void the old covenant by faith? God forbid, we establish the old covenant". Anytime make sense of that? Because if you think the ten commandments law is the old covenant, then that last statement is what you would have us believe.
I say your premise that the old covenant is the ten commandments, is total nonsense. The ten Commandments have not been abolished. They are not faulty. The promises within them are, according to David, perfect, converting the soul. You need to repent of your false understanding, Woodhouse to God, and all Him to show you the truth.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
I have some questions, based on the texts above, and based on the premise believed by many that the ten commandments are the old covenant that was done away with, needing to be replaced with a new one.
First question. Please show me what is faulty with the ten commandments. Paul said that God's Commandments were holy, just, and good. Where's the fault? How can the law of God be holy and faulty at the same time?
Second question. Please find me within the ten commandments promises that need improvement. Apparently, this old covenant, whatever it is, incorporated some poor promises. Where are they in the ten commandments? In the ten commandments we have this...
KJV Ephesians 6:1-3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
I would really like summertime to tell me what is faulty with the above promise.
Third question. We are told that whatever it is, the old covenant was to be abolished. Now of the ten commandments were to be abolished, people need to explain why Paul would be so contradictory to say...
KJV Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Was Paul saying, as so many Christians believe, "Do we make void the old covenant by faith? God forbid, we establish the old covenant". Anytime make sense of that? Because if you think the ten commandments law is the old covenant, then that last statement is what you would have us believe.
I say your premise that the old covenant is the ten commandments, is total nonsense. The ten Commandments have not been abolished. They are not faulty. The promises within them are, according to David, perfect, converting the soul. You need to repent of your false understanding, Woodhouse to God, and all Him to show you the truth.
"He hath made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
Very clear right there.
The Old Covenant commandments are holy, just and good. They were our "tutor to bring us to Christ" (Galatians 3:24). See more on this below.
Second question. Please find me within the ten commandments promises that need improvement. Apparently, this old covenant, whatever it is, incorporated some poor promises. Where are they in the ten commandments? In the ten commandments we have this...
KJV Ephesians 6:1-3
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
3 That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
I would really like summertime to tell me what is faulty with the above promise.
The commandment from the Decalogue is repeated in the New Covenant. Thus, it is binding upon the Christian. In fact, 9 of the 10 Commandments are repeated in the New Covenant. The only one that isn't is the command to obey the 7th day Sabbath. Thus, it is not binding upon the Christian.
The Law is established in the believer by faith in that it was the tutor to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24).
Notice also the very next verse:
Galatians 3:25
But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
The tutor (the Law) is no longer needed.
BDAG (3rd Edition): Paul evaluates the Mosaic law as a παιδ. εἰς Χριστόν Gal 3:24, where the emphasis is on the constrictive function of the law in contrast to freedom in the gospel. (paidagōgos)
Brakelite
Active member
You haven't actually answered my questions. You haven't shown why, or how, we should accept the commonly held belief in modern Christendom that the covenant which was old, faulty, abolished, and based on poor promises, is the Ten Commandments. You have not shown where in the Ten Commandments there is a fault, a poor promise, or any reason why God thought it was worthy of abolishing.
Nor have you in the above post explained why the 4th Commandment would be left out. Where is the 5th Commandment repeated in the NT?
But the most important factor is this. The new covenant was ratified how, and when? By blood right? At Calvary right? When were those 8 or 9 Commandments repeated that you claim were then included in the new covenant?
Because the entire Old Covenant has been abrogated. All of it (Hebrews 8:13).
Ephesians 6:2
koberstein
Active member
The Old Covenant has never been abolished.
In fact it affirms the New Covenant.
The Covenants in the Old Covenant are still enforce. You can't have a second floor in a home without the first floor.
Hebrews 8:13 teaches otherwise.
Bad analogy.
From the later part of the 1700's, an American citizen no longer had to obey the laws of England even though he/she used to be an American colonist under the King of England's authority.
koberstein
Active member
Messianic Jews (Hebrews) 8:13
By using the term, "new." he has made the first covenant "Old." Is one to infer that the Jewish holidays,
Shabbat, kashrut, civil laws, and moral laws of the Mosaic Covenant are on the verge of vanishing altogether?
No! The Mosaic Covenant presents itself as eternal. The "Old" Torah continues, and continues to have its
same purpose, but now there is a new High Priesthood introduced.
One of the most important theological topics is covenants (contracts between God and human beings),
because these frame all of salvation history. Our theology must consider the covenants with Noah, Abraham,
Moses, David and Yeshua in relation to Jews, Gentiles, and Messianic Jews.
All Five Covenants remain in force today. A key point of departure from many Christian theologies is insistence
that all five of these covenants remain in force today.
God's covenant with mankind through Noah (Genesis 9) is, in Jewish tradition, the basis for the "Noahide Laws,"
under which Gentiles receive salvation. Although the New Testament asserts that salvation for the Jews and Gentiles
alike is only through Yeshua, the outcome of the Jewish Conference (Acts 15) which set forth the minimal conditions
for acceptance of Gentiles into the body of Messiah, parallels the Noahide Laws.
God's covenant with Abraham (Genesis 12, 13, 15, 17) created the Jewish people. Except for the requirement of
circumcision it is an unconditional covenant promising that the Jews are to be a blessing to all mankind.
This has proved true especially through Yeshua the Messiah, the "seed of Abraham," who came forth within the
Jewish people and whose just rulership over all the nations will extend from Jerusalem the Jewish capital.
The covenant now applies to both Jews and Gentiles who follow Yeshua, as explained in Romans 4 and Galatians 3.
The Jewish people will one day bless the world in unprecedented ways (Zechariah 8:23; Revelation 7, 14)
God's covenant with the Jewish people through Moses provided the Torah to exhort and guide them into righteous
living, to increase their awareness of sin and of their need to repent, and to teach them to accept God's provision
at first the animal sacrifices, and in the fullness of time Yeshua's sacrifice---for healing the separation from God
caused by sin. In relation to its blessings and curses the Mosaic covenant is conditional from the Jewish side,
but not from God's side, for God is faithful even when his people are not (Romans 3:2-3). According to Scripture,
the Jewish people, having broken that covenant (Jeremiah 31: 31-32), are currently recipients of its curses and not
its blessings (Deuteronomy 28) When Jewish individuals become obedient and cease to break the covenant, God
blesses them individually. When the Jewish people become obedient and cease to break the covenant, God will
fulfill his promise to bless them as a nation.
However, the Torah supplied under this covenant was given forever and never abolished, and the Torah is still in
force. This truth runs against the current of so much Christian theology. God's covenant with David (2 Samuel 7)
established his kingdom forever. For this reason the expected Messiah was and is called the Son of David.
Messiah Yeshua, a descendant of David, will ascend the throne in the Father's good time (Acts 1:6-7, Revelation 20:2-6)
God's New Covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31: 30-34) through Yeshua the Messiah
blesses all mankind by providing the final and permanent atonement for sin and by promising that the Holy Spirit of God
will write Torah on the heart of anyone with faith. It thus compliments the earlier covenants without annulling them (Galatians 3)
It was promised in the Tanakh, and the book of the New Testament elaborate on it.
This seems an appropriate place to look more intensively at how the Letter To A Group Of Messianic Jews ["To The Hebrews 7-8"]
deals with the "old' and "new" covenants.
"For if the system oicohanim is transformed, there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah..... Thus, on the one hand,
the earlier rule is set aside because of its weakness and inefficacy (for the Torah did not bring anything to the goal); and,
on the other hand, a hope of something better is introduced, through which we are drawing near to God. (Messianic Jews 7:12)
But "a transformation of Torah" does not imply its abolition. Specific rules are set aside---for example, the Torah has to be
adjusted to take account of Yeshua's role as cohen gadol [High Priest]. Yet the Torah itself continues in force and is to be
observed, just as the U.S. Constitution is not abolished by being amended.
commentary by David H. Stern
Shalom
