Commandments of God

[Jamie Russell CME]

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14

What are the commandments of God to those who have faith in Jesus?

It certainly is, at minimum, the ten commandments. Which are clearly present before the Sinai covenant is even made.

e.g. Joseph refrains from adultery, as it is a "sin against God".
God tells Cain "sin crouches at your door" before he murders his brother.
God ordains every seventh day as set apart from the first week of creation.

 

[Soyeong]

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14

What are the commandments of God to those who have faith in Jesus?

It certainly is, at minimum, the ten commandments. Which are clearly present before the Sinai covenant is even made.

e.g. Joseph refrains from adultery, as it is a "sin against God".
God tells Cain "sin crouches at your door" before he murders his brother.
God ordains every seventh day as set apart from the first week of creation.

If there is nothing in the context that specifies which commandments of God it is referring to, then it is referring to all of the commandments that God has given, especially because all of God's commandments were given as a gift to teach us how to have faith in Jesus, which is why he said that faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law (Matthew 23:23).

 

[Fred]

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14

What are the commandments of God to those who have faith in Jesus?

All the commands of the New Covenant - not the commands of the Old Covenant.

 

[Diserner]

What are the commandments of God to those who have faith in Jesus?

Yoooo, my man Jamie, you actually joined.

You should put your Youtube in your signature.

The way I see it, is there is two commandments for a New Covenant believer:

1. The commandment to trust in Christ for my righteousness.
2. The commandment to "abide" in Christ, such that his life will manifest.

 

[Diserner]

@Jamie Russell CME

I'd be interested in your opinion on this take, since you're a bit of an expert:

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/finally-the-correct-interpretation-of-the-70-weeks-prophecy-in-daniel.171/

 

[Soyeong]

All the commands of the New Covenant - not the commands of the Old Covenant.

That is contradictory because the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

 

[Diserner]

That is contradictory because the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

Even ceremonial?

 

[Fred]

That is contradictory because the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Jeremiah 31:33).

No, it doesn't. Jump back two passages and even Jeremiah 31:31 speaks of a "new covenant."

All the commands of the Old Covenant are obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13)
BDAG (3rd Edition): treat the first covenant as obsolete Hb 8:13a (palaioō, page 751).

If there is an Old Covenant command that is repeated in the New Covenant, then it is to be obeyed.
If an Old Covenant command is not repeated in the New Covenant, then it does not have to be obeyed.

 

[civic]

No, it doesn't.
All the commands of the Old Covenant are obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13)
BDAG (3rd Edition): treat the first covenant as obsolete Hb 8:13a (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, palaioō, page 751).

If there is an old covenant command that is a command of the New Covenant then it is to be obeyed.

No escaping that from the entire book of Hebrews.

 

[Diserner]

No escaping that from the entire book of Hebrews.

You think Christians are not obligated to keep the 10 Commandments?

Surprising from a Lordship Salvation guy.

 

[civic]

You think Christians are not obligated to keep the 10 Commandments?

Surprising from a Lordship Salvation guy.

No just the first 2. Love God and your neighbor. Jesus should know what He was talking about don’t you think ?

 

[Diserner]

The question is whether I know what he's talking about, not him.

 

[Soyeong]

Even ceremonial?

In Jeremiah 31:33, it does not make any exceptions for ceremonial laws. Furthermore, the Bible never lists which are the ceremonial laws and never even refers to that as being a category of law. If a group of people were to creates lists of what they considered to be ceremonial laws, then they end up with a wide variety of lists, and none of those people should interpret the authors of the Bible as referring to a list that they just created. I could categorize God's laws base upon which part of the body is most commonly uses to obey/disobey them, such with the law against theft being a hand law, however, just because I can categorize God's laws in that way does not establish that any of the authors of the Bible categorized God's laws in the same way, so would run into the same sort of error if I were to interpret Jeremiah 31:33 as making an exception for hand laws.

 

[Diserner]

In Jeremiah 31:33, it does not make any exceptions for ceremonial laws.

Do you believe Paul is inspired Scripture?

 

[Soyeong]

No, it doesn't. Jump back two passages and even Jeremiah 31:31 speaks of a "new covenant."

All the commands of the Old Covenant are obsolete. (Hebrews 8:13)
BDAG (3rd Edition): treat the first covenant as obsolete Hb 8:13a (palaioō, page 751).

I agree that Jeremiah 31:31-33 is speaking about the New Covenant, furthermore, it states that God will put the Torah in our minds and write it on our hearts, and Hebrews 8:10 quotes Jeremiah 31:33, so you should not interpreted Hebrews 8:10 and 8:13 as contradicting each other.

In Exodus 33:14-17 and Leviticus 24:8, the Mosaic Covenant is eternal, so the only way that the New Covenant can replace it is if it does everything that Mosaic Covenant does plus more, which is what it means to make something obsolete. So the New Covenant still involves following the Torah (Hebrews 8:10), plus it is based on better promises and has a superior mediator (Hebrews 8:6).

If there is an Old Covenant command that is repeated in the New Covenant, then it is to be obeyed.
If an Old Covenant command is not repeated in the New Covenant, then it does not have to be obeyed.

Nowhere does any of the NT authors state that we should only follow the commands that they repeated. Jesus was not in disagreement with the Father about which commands we should follow, so he did not need to repeat any of His commands in order for us to know that we should still obey the Father. Jesus set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so he still would have taught full obedience to it by example even if he hadn't repeated any of its commands, and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). The NT instructs us to repent from our sins and it is by the Torah that we have knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20).

 

[Jamie Russell CME]

Colossians 2 and Hebrews 9:10 tell me the ceremonial laws are fulfilled in Jesus sacrifice. They were the things added because of sin. But the moral laws, as referenced in the ten commandments seem to be prior to Sinai. That is my understanding. Not that the other commands are not relevant but their purpose was to point to the provision for sins which Jesus supercedes by His sacrifice. IN other words, the things prescribed to deal with sin have been accomplished in Christ. But we still need the provision for sins which Jesus does by His one sacrifice.

 

[Soyeong]

No just the first 2. Love God and your neighbor. Jesus should know what He was talking about don’t you think ?

If we love God and our neighbor, then we won't commit adultery, theft, murder, idolatry, rape, kidnapping, favoritism, and so forth for everything else commanded in the Torah, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them. So they are all connected, which means that if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey the rest of the commandments in the Torah. Jesus was not asked about which were the only commandments that we should still follow, but about what the greatest commandment is, and the existence of the greatest two commandments implies that there are still other commandments that we should follow that are not the greatest two.

 

[Soyeong]

Do you believe Paul is inspired Scripture?

Indeed and I consider Paul to be a servant of God, which is why I do not interpret him as teaching rebellion against anything that God has commanded.

 

[Jamie Russell CME]

the so called moral laws are the sins that we repent for when we break them, as codified in the Sinai covenant in the 10 words. And as we see in the heavenly temple, where Jesus now ministers, Revelation 11:19. Sin is transgression of the law. We don't have to repent for not coming to Jerusalem on the day of Atonement, to be cleansed of sins by the goat for YHWH. Jesus did that once for all.

 

[Diserner]

which means that if you think that we should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that we should obey the rest of the commandments in the Torah.

I actually completely agree with your logic here, and we have many verses supporting it.

You can't separate out part of the Law from the rest from a moral point of view.