Christendom's Trinity: Where Did It Come From?

[mikesw]

This demonstrates severe biblical illiteracy on your part. Jesus identified the Father as the God of the Jews in John 8. Means YHWH is the Father and Jesus acknowledged their accuracy on this point.

John 8
54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’

that confirms that unitarians do not know where Jesus came from.

 

[360watt]

Let me ask you a question. If someone wrote you long letters about God and, when you read them, the only God they are mentioning the whole time was the Father, would you think they were defining God any differently than the Father? That's what the Bible is like. With Paul's exhaustive defining of God as the Father, he wasn't trying to hint about a different god. Just go with what Paul said, don't add to it and argue against him, and you will see clearly who God is.

So what you are proposing, likely to preserve your beliefs, is a fallacy called an argument from silence, i.e., "Paul didn't say Jesus that Jesus is not God, so we can't rule it out." is the same thing as saying "Paul didn't say God is not a cheese pizza, so we cannot rule it out." The scope of Paul's writings involved defining who God is, not in refuting all of the possible heretical teachings that were abounding The letters are just about getting the truth out there. I would like you to read the first few verses of all of Paul's letters please. Do you see how he opens every letter with saying God is the Father?

The logic im using, is if Jesus is doing things only God can do in other parts of scripture.. then affirming the Father is God, doesn't mean Jesus isn't God.

 

[Runningman]

The logic im using, is if Jesus is doing things only God can do in other parts of scripture.. then affirming the Father is God, doesn't mean Jesus isn't God.

Yeah. I totally get that. The walking on water, weather control, healings, resurrections, etc. That's not normal human stuff. Then we have the matter of the disciples and other prophets doing it too. So I don't really see those as affirmations of the deity of Jesus or others. I see that those people were empowered by God.

 

[e v e]

Outer space being heaven is satanic? Ok, we'll see about that. So Jesus ascended to heaven right? Did he ascend to the sky or a spiritual realm known as heaven?

sigh.

 

[JesusFan]

You have exchanged the truth of God for a lie and are worshipping created flesh, which is idolatry. @mikesw @synergy @civic

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Ready to know who God is yet?

Jesus is God in human flesh, so not idolatry there, but to deny Jesus as God is spirit of antichroist

 

[JesusFan]

"The Word became flesh" in trinitarian theology means your god is flesh. Flesh is a creation. Creations aren't God. Paul has condemned your organization as sinful. What is your answer to Paul regarding your idolatry? And more importantly, do you think your arguments are going to gaslight the real God into thinking He's flesh?

No, refers to JUST the Second person became human flesh

 

[JesusFan]

You're confusing what Christ is by nature with what the Word became in history. When John 1:14 says “the Word became flesh,” it is not teaching that God’s divine nature turned into flesh or ceased to be spirit (which would contradict passages like John 4:24), but that the eternal Word personally took on a real human nature in addition to His divine nature. In other words, Trinitarian theology does not say “God is flesh” as an absolute statement; it says the Word, who is God, tabernacled as Jesus—fully human while remaining fully divine—so your heretical claim misrepresents the doctrine by flattening the incarnation into a crude transformation instead of a union of natures.

He seems to be equating this with modualism/oneness heresy, as if Jesus being God in human flesh was Just God, so no longer was in heaven at that time

 

[JesusFan]

Some data on the Holy Spirit...

We have no evidence in the Bible that “the Holy Spirit” was ever used as a name because no one ever used it in a direct address. Many people spoke or prayed directly to God, starting out by saying “O Yahweh” (translated as “O LORD” in almost all English versions). Furthermore, the name “Jesus” is a Greek form of the name “Joshua” (in fact, the King James Version confuses “Joshua” and “Jesus” in Acts 7:45 and Hebrews 4:8) and many people spoke “to Jesus” in the Bible. But no one in the Bible ever used “the Holy Spirit” in a direct address because there's simply no actual name for any “Person” known as “the Holy Spirit” anywhere in the Bible.

The “holy spirit” God gave in the Old Testament was God’s nature, but after the Day of Pentecost He gave His nature in a new and fuller way than He had ever given it before and this is what was foretold in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 11:19; 36:26). It was because this new spirit was promised in the Old Testament that the New Testament calls it “the promised holy spirit” Ephesians 1:13; Acts 2:33; Galatians 3:14). We have the “firstfruits” of the spirit (Romans 8:23) because Christians are the first to receive this new spirit and that's why we have the guarantee that we will be in the coming Messianic Kingdom.

The gift of the holy spirit that Christians have is a gift and thus an “it.” Jesus told the apostles that the spirit would be “in” them (John 14:17)—which is what happened on the Day of Pentecost when the holy spirit went from being with or “upon” people in the Old Testament and Gospels to being born “in” people on and after the Day of Pentecost. The spirit is sent by the Father (John 14:16-17) and Jesus (John 16:7). It does not speak on its own, but it speaks only what it hears (John 16:13). Thus, the gift of the holy spirit is directed by God and Jesus, which is what we would expect since it's God’s nature born in us. The gift of the holy spirit is the nature of God, and when it's born in us it becomes part of our very nature (2 Peter 1:4).

Can an IT speak, be sinned against, inspire scriptures and speak to Apostles?

 

[JesusFan]

How does Jesus direct the Holy Spirit if you say He is just a man?

How cam the Holy Spirit raise Jesus from Grave if was just an it?

 

[JesusFan]

"The Word became flesh" seems to be a roadblock that you can't argue around. When are you going to admit that your god is created flesh in your religion? Since that's all wrong, ready to know what the "Word became flesh" means?

My Jesus was eternally God before the Incarnation, so the physical body and humanity of Jesus was created, but not His deity

 

[JesusFan]

Bolded and highlighted in red to make it trinitarian proof. Who is the only God mentioned getting glory in the entire chapter?

God in OT, Yahweh, stated that He alone is God and Lord, so either jesus is God or he was greatest Blasphemer to ever live

 

[JesusFan]

Only Trinitarians believe Jesus had to be a "common man" because they do not believe Christ came in the flesh.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:

Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah to Israel, and the now resurrected Lord Christ to the Christian who sits at the right hand of God as second in command and is the head of the Church that is called the body of Christ.

To call Jesus Lord means to acknowledge He as God

 

[JesusFan]

Yeah. I totally get that. The walking on water, weather control, healings, resurrections, etc. That's not normal human stuff. Then we have the matter of the disciples and other prophets doing it too. So I don't really see those as affirmations of the deity of Jesus or others. I see that those people were empowered by God.

Who other then Jesus though was physically resurrected, forgave sinners, and received worship?

 

[JesusFan]

"The Word became flesh" is still there. Became means be brought to pass, happen. No matter how you attempt to argue around it, you are stuck between a rock and a hard place with John 1:14. Since flesh is a creation of various compounds and elements, then either the Word became flesh and you accept a created god (idolatry) in your religion or the Word didn't become flesh and you have to reject what the Bible says. I think the route you are trying to unsuccessfully take is, rather than outright deny what John 1:14 says, you are instead trying to change it and disguise it as religious. You're distorting what John 1:14 because the Word being flesh is a stumbling block to your theology.

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

he existed as being very God before the Incarnation

 

[JesusFan]

Let me ask you a question. If someone wrote you long letters about God and, when you read them, the only God they are mentioning the whole time was the Father, would you think they were defining God any differently than the Father? That's what the Bible is like. With Paul's exhaustive defining of God as the Father, he wasn't trying to hint about a different god. Just go with what Paul said, don't add to it and argue against him, and you will see clearly who God is.

So what you are proposing, likely to preserve your beliefs, is a fallacy called an argument from silence, i.e., "Paul didn't say Jesus that Jesus is not God, so we can't rule it out." is the same thing as saying "Paul didn't say God is not a cheese pizza, so we cannot rule it out." The scope of Paul's writings involved defining who God is, not in refuting all of the possible heretical teachings that were abounding The letters are just about getting the truth out there. I would like you to read the first few verses of all of Paul's letters please. Do you see how he opens every letter with saying God is the Father?

or that in those letetrs the Person of Jesus keeps getting mentioned, with same attributes and powers as God the Father?

 

[Peterlag]

To call Jesus Lord means to acknowledge He as God

There's nothing in Scripture that says to call Jesus Lord means he's God. Nothing.

The Greek word for Lord is kurios and is a masculine title of respect and nobility, which is why we see many others besides God and Jesus being called the “Lord."

• Property owners are called the "Lord" (Matthew 20:8) kurios is “owner” in the NIV.
• Heads of households are called the "Lord" (Mark 13:35) kurios is "owner."
• Slave owners were called the "Lord" (Matthew 10:24) kurios is "master."
• Husbands were called the "Lord" (1 Peter 3:6) kurios is "master" in the NIV.
• A son called his father the "Lord" (Matthew 21:30) kurios is "sir."
• The Roman Emperor was called the "Lord" (Acts 25:26) kurios is "His Majesty."
• Roman authorities were called the "Lord" (Matthew 27:63) kurios is "sir."

 

[Peterlag]

Can an IT speak, be sinned against, inspire scriptures and speak to Apostles?

Yes, the spirit which is an it can speak.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, the spirit which is an it can speak.

Nope. The Spirit is not an "it". The Spirit is a "He" (John 16:13-14 and John 14:16-17).

 

[Peterlag]

Nope. The Spirit is not an "it". The Spirit is a "He" (John 16:13-14 and John 14:16-17).

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

 

[Doug Brents]

Almost every English version translates John 14:17 similarly to “even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him.” Translators capitalize “Spirit” and use “he” and “him” because of their theology. The Greek word “spirit” is neuter and the text could also be translated as “the spirit of truth” and paired with “which” and “it.” The New American Bible reads “which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it.” Capitalizing the “H” and “S” and using the English pronoun “He” is appropriate when God is being referred to as “the Holy Spirit.” However, when we see the “h” and “s” having the lowercase such as "the holy spirit" and all the pronouns referring to that spirit being impersonal such as “it” and “which” is when the subject under discussion is the gift of God’s nature.

And it John 14:17, John is referring to the Helper. The Helper is the Spirit of Truth. The Helper is not just gifts and knowledge, but God who lives within us.
"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, so that He may be with you forever; 17 the Helper is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him; but you know Him because He remains with you and will be in you."
What does it mean "another" Helper? Jesus is leaving them, and He has been with them and helping them learn and grow. "Another" refers to someone (not something) else that will come and live with them and in them (and with and in us who are in Christ).