atpollard
Well-known member
Did God allow Joseph to be sold into slavery?
Did God allow Joseph to be killed by his brothers?
Was that "luck" or God's hand?
What was God's PLAN for Joseph?
Calvinism is Gnosticism
- Thread starter civic
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Did God allow Joseph to be killed by his brothers?
Was that "luck" or God's hand?
What was God's PLAN for Joseph?
atpollard
Well-known member
Did Joseph's brothers have Free Will to do as they please?
atpollard
Well-known member
Either Piper was right and God was in control ... or "Open Theism" and God had to adjust His plan to the Free Will choice of Joseph's brothers (including the possibility that they would kill Joseph).
civic
Well-known member
You are not Joseph and neither am I or anyone else for that matter. He was unique in Gods timeline.
Another calvinism fallacy. What God does in one situation does not apply to every situation. What God planned with the crucifixion was a one time and unique event. The same with Joseph.
As the saying goes a text without the context is a pretext for a proof text. Calvinsts rip passages from scripture to support their doctrines. They read calvinism into everything in life. What God ordained with Joseph was unique just like with Jesus.
Its the same things many do with the Acts of the Apostles. Its the Apostles not every believer. What God did through them went away when John died. Context is king. Not every scripture has a direct application for everyone. Much of it is a historical record on how God has acted with a few individuals in human history, not how He acts with all humans in history.
hope this helps !!!
Frank Russell
Well-known member
The thoughts that materialize in the mind in english and thus become good thoughts or bad thoughts are on the surface level.
The period of time prior to us learning an earth language remains within the subconscious.
In order to navigate the thoughts, one must triumph in this arena of the untranslated.
The reason why one studies the scripture is so good seeds can be planted on the foundational level of the consciousness. However, most people are not aware of where this area of the mind is to be able to plant seeds there.
This is why it is essential to outflank the mind of the physical brain through the spiritual person brought to life through faith in Jesus Christ, and matured over time through living by faith.
Ahar
Active member
The bad news about Calvinism has to do with God’s character. Nearly all Calvinists confess that God is the standard of moral goodness, the source of all values, the perfectly loving source of love. Then they also confess that God ordains, designs, controls, and renders certain the most egregious evil acts such as the kidnapping, rape, and murder of a small child and the genocidal slaughter of hundreds of thousands in Rwanda.
They confess that God “sees to it” that humans sin, as with the fall of Adam and Eve. And they confess that all salvation is absolutely God’s doing and not at all dependent on free will decisions of people (monergism), and that God only saves some when he could save all—assuring that some large portion of humanity will spend eternity in hell when he could save them from it.
I want people to think better about God than Calvinism allows. I believe God cares what we think about him and, because I love God, I want all people to think rightly about him.
They confess that God “sees to it” that humans sin, as with the fall of Adam and Eve. And they confess that all salvation is absolutely God’s doing and not at all dependent on free will decisions of people (monergism), and that God only saves some when he could save all—assuring that some large portion of humanity will spend eternity in hell when he could save them from it.
I want people to think better about God than Calvinism allows. I believe God cares what we think about him and, because I love God, I want all people to think rightly about him.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
Theology is not logical.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
God did not ALLOW Joseph to be sold into slavery. God MEANT for Joseph to be sold into slavery. The scripture is clear on that.
atpollard
Well-known member
It doesn't matter ... I have been informed that Joseph doesn't count (that was God doing a special work in the OT) and the Gospels don't count (that was God doing a special work in the NT) and Acts doesn't count (that is still God doing a special work).
Apparently, only John 3:16 counts and only Augustine counts to prove that Calvinism is really heretical Gnosticism.
[I cannot for the life of me figure out why Free Will is not the Semi-Pelagianism heresy.]
Thus, there is really no Scripture that remains to apply to any discussion, so I have yielded the discussion to its apriori conclusion.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
When I see free will and pelagianism in the same sentence, the old movies Free Willy and the Pelican Brief come to mind.
Ahar
Active member
Your theology had might be outdated. Try a new hat. I like the ones with the four corners. A Black one of course.
atpollard
Well-known member
It's not the HAT ... its the BEARD that makes you a Reformer. [And drinking BEER makes you a Theologian ... just ask Luther!].
Ahar
Active member
I knew it had to be one of those
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It doesn't matter ... I have been informed that Joseph doesn't count (that was God doing a special work in the OT) and the Gospels don't count (that was God doing a special work in the NT) and Acts doesn't count (that is still God doing a special work).
Apparently, only John 3:16 counts and only Augustine counts to prove that Calvinism is really heretical Gnosticism.
[I cannot for the life of me figure out why Free Will is not the Semi-Pelagianism heresy.]
Thus, there is really no Scripture that remains to apply to any discussion, so I have yielded the discussion to its apriori conclusion.
The word "whosoever" clearly means "whoever chooses by their free will".
So I'm writing this now: "Whosoever is 6' 2" tall", and by the magic of my free will, I grew taller.
Frank Russell
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
God cannot be tempted nor does God tempt man to do evil but thats exactly what you espouse like calvin and the rest of those like MacArthur, Sproul, Piper, White, Spurgeon, Edwards teach.
The Famous Calvinist John Piper who gets it from the WCF says the following about evil taken from desiring god website :
"Ephesians 1:11 goes even further by declaring that God in Christ “works all things according to the counsel of his will.” Here the Greek word for “works” is energeø, which indicates that God not merely carries all of the universe’s objects and events to their appointed ends but that he actually brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Exodus 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Hebrews 12:3-11; James 1:2-4).
This includes — as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem — God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4, NASB). “When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other” (Ecclesiastes 7:14, NIV)." https://www.desiringgod.org/message...ds-gracious-hand-in-the-hurts-others-do-to-us
RC below
R.C. Sproul, clarifies: “The distortion of double predestination looks like this: There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God WORKS in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation (destinare ad peccatum) and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative. In the case of the elect, regeneration is the monergistic work of God. In the case of the reprobate, sin and degeneration are the monergistic work of God. Stated another way, we can establish a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry. We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin. This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.” (Double Predestination, emphasis mine)
According to Sproul, it is undeniable that God is made the author of sin IF, from all eternity, He has decreed anyone to sin and damnation by efficaciously working sin in their lives. Such a thing, he calls a “monstrous assault on the integrity of God.” However, is that not exactly what John Calvin taught, then denied, then affirmed and then declared that curious men are not to peer into the secrets of God, just as we are not to curiously peer into the Sun itself? As Calvin speaks, what you will find is that God is made the author of sin, but is not to be held guilty of sin because He allegedly brings it about through secondary causes, while He Himself is the proximate cause and Determiner. But first, Calvin will explain the Providence of God from the Deterministic perspective, and then he will address his opponents, and finally he will condemn the curious who seek to examine him too fully.
John Calvin writes: “We also note that we should consider the creation of the world so that we may realize that everything is subject to God and ruled by his will and that when the world has done what it may, nothing happens other than what God decrees.” (Acts: Calvin, The Crossway Classic Commentaries, p.66, emphasis mine)
Calvin writes: “First, the eternal predestination of God, by which before the fall of Adam He decreed what should take place concerning the whole human race and every individual, was fixed and determined.” (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.121, emphasis mine)
John Calvin explains: “God had no doubt decreedbefore the foundation of the world what He would do with every one of us and had assigned to everyone by His secret counsel his part in life.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians, p.20, emphasis mine)
Calvin writes: “…the reason why God elects some and rejects others is to be found in His purpose alone. … before men are born their lot is assigned to each of them by the secret will of God. … the salvation or the destruction of men depends on His free election.” (Calvin’s New Testament
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conclusion: the above described god is not the God of the Bible. The facts are calvin quoted augustine several hundred times in the institutes. the fact is augustine was pagan, gnostic and into greek philosophy which he mixed together with Christianity and married the two of them together to create a corrupt theology that was held by the reformers. The apple as the say does not fall far from the tree. Calvin was a student of augustine who corrupted the early church with his pagan/gnostic doctrines about God.
John Calvin wrote, "Augustine is so wholly within me, that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings."
Straight from the horses mouth !
hope this helps !!!
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atpollard
Well-known member
If the answer to my simple questions ...
- Did God allow Joseph to be sold into slavery?
- Did God allow Joseph to be killed by his brothers?
- Was that "luck" or God's hand?
- What was God's PLAN for Joseph?
... was included in your lengthy post, I didn't see it. I read NOTHING in all those quotes from Piper and Sproul and Calvin and Augustine that mentioned Joseph.
I "espoused" nothing, I requested an explanation of a Biblical story from a "God is not in control" (Libertine Free Will) perspective, since that biblical story appears to contradict the very concept of Libertine Free Will. As Joseph himself concluded: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." [Genesis 50:20]
What I got instead is:
- Calvinism bad.
- Piper bad.
- Sproul bad.
- Calvin bad.
- Augustine bad.
- You (atpollard) bad.
I found the response ... underwhelming exegesis of the story of Joseph.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
If the answer to my simple questions ...
- Did God allow Joseph to be sold into slavery?
- Did God allow Joseph to be killed by his brothers?
- Was that "luck" or God's hand?
- What was God's PLAN for Joseph?
... was included in your lengthy post, I didn't see it. I read NOTHING in all those quotes from Piper and Sproul and Calvin and Augustine that mentioned Joseph.
I "espoused" nothing, I requested an explanation of a Biblical story from a "God is not in control" (Libertine Free Will) perspective, since that biblical story appears to contradict the very concept of Libertine Free Will. As Joseph himself concluded: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." [Genesis 50:20]
What I got instead is:
- Calvinism bad.
- Piper bad.
- Sproul bad.
- Calvin bad.
- Augustine bad.
- You (atpollard) bad.
I found the response ... underwhelming exegesis of the story of Joseph.
In general, when free-willers argue their perspective, they focus on their opinion about why the love of God supports their views, and argue against reformers. When Calvinists argue their perspective, they cite scripture.
civic
Well-known member
In general, when fatalists argue their perspective, they focus on their opinion about why the hatred of God supports their views, and argue against non calvinists. When Non Calvinists argue their perspective, they cite scripture.
hope this helps !!!
atpollard
Well-known member
Tit for tat.
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