Where did calvin get predestination from ?

[Rockson]

The NT and early church definitely taught the free will of man.

There could be no other issue that could be considered more self evident than this that man has freedom of will.

 

[civic]

There could be no other issue that could be considered more self evident than this that man has freedom of will.

Yes created in the image of God which never changed after the fall. The reason we are redeemable is because man is still made in the image and likeness of God and has the utmost value to God which is why He is loving and long suffering not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. He died for all the world and made propitiation for the sins of all the world .

 

[TomL]

I have no idea where Calvin got predestination from since I haven't read Calvin. If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say it is probably from the word "predestined".

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will

27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence,

And the many passages like this, too:

“Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’;
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man of [i]My purpose from a far country.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, surely I will do it.

What you will not find however is men unconditionally predestined to become believers

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

What you will not find however is men unconditionally predestined to become believers

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Those he called, he also justified. There's no condition between being called and justified. It doesn't say, those he called, if they responded in belief, he also justified.

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him

 

[TomL]

There could be no other issue that could be considered more self evident than this that man has freedom of will.

The following are some quotations from the early church fathers demonstrating that they held to free will. Ignatius (30-107 AD) was a disciple of the Apostle John. “Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life.… If anyone is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.” (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V) Clement of Rome (35-99 AD) knew Peter and Paul personally. Tradition has identified him with the Clement who is mentioned in Philippians 4:3. “For no other reason does God punish the sinner either in the present or future world, except because He knows that the sinner was able to conquer but neglected to gain the victory.” (Recognitions of Clement of Rome 111. 23, V. 8, IX. 30) Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) was an early Christian apologist who produced works defending and explaining Christianity. “But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. (First Apology, ch. 42, p. 177) “But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made. (First Apology, ch. 43, p. 177) “We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be…. For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.” (First Apology ch. 43) “But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. (Second Apology, Ch. 7, p. 190) “…God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God…” (Second Apology ch. 141) “But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shallbe certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 141, p. 269-270) “Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.” (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 139, p. 269) “Here, then, is a proof of virtue, and of a mind loving prudence, to recur to the communion of the unity, and to attach one’s self to prudence for salvation, and make choice of the better things according to the free-will placed in man; (On the Sole Government of God, ch. 6, p.293) “Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.… unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61) “I have proved in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) “In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) “Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) “The human race…from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent. Each one had committed personal transgression.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) “The whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the Law of Moses, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the Law and do them.’ And no one has accurately done them all.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) Tatian the Assyrian (110-172 AD) was a writer and theologian of the 2nd century. “We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) “The Logos… before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. And each of these two orders of creatures was made free to act as it pleased, not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone, but is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished … but the just man be deservedly praised.… Such is the constitution of things in reference to angels and men.” (Address to the Greeks) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) was a disciple of Polycarp who himself was a disciple of the Apostle John. “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) “This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves…” (God’s Strategy In Human History, p. 246) “‘Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’… And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’… All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man… For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287) “Nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon anyone unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill.… They have been created free agents and possessed of power over themselves.” (Vol. 1, p. 523) “But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, p. 331) “…there is no coercion with God, but a good will is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves … If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advise is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.” (Irenaeus Against Heresies, XXXVII)“ And in man, as well as in angels, [God] has placed the power of choice…so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good…but [they] poured contempt on His super-eminent goodness.” (Against Heresies 5:37) Irenaeus wrote that God sent His Son “as one who saves by persuasion, not compulsion, for compulsion is no attribute of God.” (Epistle to Diognetus 7:4) Melito of Sardis (Died 180 AD) “There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) Theophilus of Antioch (Died 183-185 AD) “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) Athenagoras of Athens (133-190 AD) was an Ante-Nicene church father. He was Christian apologist who lived during the second half of the 2nd century. “Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice, so it is among the angels…Some free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which he had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them.” (A Plea for the Christians 24) Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) was a Christian theologian and philosopher who taught at the School of Alexandria. He mentored Origen and Alexander of Jerusalem. “A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace.” Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21 “Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, Bk. 1, Ch. 17) “Nor shall he who is saved be saved against his will, for he is not inanimate; but he will above all voluntarily and of free choice speed to salvation. Wherefore also man received the commandments in order that he might be self-impelled, to whatever he wished of things to be chosen and to be avoided. Wherefore God does not do good by necessity, but from His free choice benefits those who spontaneously turn.” (Stromata, Bk 7 Ch.7) “The Lord clearly shows sins and transgressions to be in our own power.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 288)“Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287) “‘If thou wilt be perfect.’ Consequently he was not yet perfect. For nothing is more perfect than what is perfect. And divinely the expression ‘if thou wilt’ showed the self-determination of the soul holding converse with Him. For choice depended on the man as being free; but the gift on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing and are exceedingly earnest, and ask, that so their salvation may become their own. For God compels not (for compulsion is repugnant to God), but supplies to those who seek, and bestows on those who ask, and opens to those who knock.” (Clement of Alexandria c. 195) “Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63) “So in no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originate sins…punishments are rightly inflicted.” (Stromata 1:17) “This was the law from the first, that virtue should be the object of voluntary choice.” (Stromata 7:2) end pt1

 

[TomL]

end pt1

To obey or not is in our own power, provided we do not have the excuse of ignorance.” (A
Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287)
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian
Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287)
Tertullian (160-225 AD) was an apologist for the Christian faith. He wrote a number of
polemics against heretical teachings of his day.
“But although we shall be understood, from our argument, to be only so affirming man’s
unshackled power over his will, that what happens to him should be laid to his own charge,
and not to God’s, yet that you may not object, even now, that he ought not to have been so
constituted, since his liberty and power of will might turn out to be injurious… Therefore it
was proper that (he who is) the image and likeness of God should be formed with a free will
and a mastery of himself;… At present, let God’s goodness alone occupy our attention, that
which gave so large a gift to man, even the liberty of his will.” (The Writings of Tertullian -
Volume 2, p. 92)
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and
power.… For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to
render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be
threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his
will… Man is free, with a will either for obedience of resistance.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol.
3, pp. 300-301)
“No reward can be justly bestowed, no punishment can be justly inflicted, upon him who is
good or bad by necessity, and not by his own choice.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p.
61)

Hippolytus of Rome (170-235 AD)“For man is able to both will and not will. He is endowed with power to do both.” (A
Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 288)

Origen (185-255 AD) is regarded as one of the most important Christian theologians of all time.
“The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue
could be ascribed to it; nor would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor its declination to
vice punishment.… How could God require that of man which he [man] had not power to
offer Him?” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62)

In his work Against Celsus, Origen responded to a claim that “whatever happens in the
universe, whether it be the work of God, of angels [or] of other demons…is regulated by the
law of the Most High God,” Origen wrote, “This is… incorrect; for we cannot say that
transgressors follow the law of God when they transgress; and Scripture declares that it is not only wicked men who are transgressors, but also wicked demons and wicked angels…When we say that ‘the providence of God regulates all things,’ we utter a great truth if we attribute to that providence nothing but what is just and right. But if we ascribe to the providence of God all things whatsoever, however unjust they may be, then it is no longer true that the providence of God regulates all things.” (Against Celsus 7:68)

Alexander of Alexandria (250-326 AD) was the leader of the opposition to Arianism at the
First Council of Nicaea. He was the mentor of Athanasius of Alexandria, who became one of the leading Church fathers.

“Natural will is the free faculty of ever intelligent nature, as having nothing involuntary
pertaining to its essence.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 293,
published by Hendrickson Publishers)

Archelaus Bishop of Carrhae (250-300 AD) held a public dispute with the heretic Manes —
followers of Mani — an account of which he published in Syriac. The work was soon translated both into Greek and into Latin.
“All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the
sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment…. And certainly
whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment…. There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases.” (Archelaus Disputation With Manes sees. 32, 33)

Methodius of Olympus (270-312 AD) was a bishop and author. He died as a martyr.

“Man was made with a free will … [with the] capacity of obeying or disobeying God. For
this was the meaning of the gift of free will.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by
David Bercot, p. 292)

“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8, chap. 16)

“To do good or evil is in our own power”. (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David
Bercot, p. 292)

Cyril of Jerusalem (313-386 AD).

“And you must know your soul to be endowed with free-will, and to be God’s fairest work in the image of himself. It is immortal in as far as God grants it immortality. It is a rational
living creature not subject to decay, because these qualities have been bestowed by God upon it. And it has the power to do what it chooses. For you do not sin because you were born that way, nor if you fornicate is it by chance. And do not take any notice of what some people say, that the conjunctions of the stars compel you to fall into unclean living. Why should you avoid acknowledging that you have done wrong by blaming it onto the stars that had nothing to do with it?” (Catechetical Lectures IV, 18)

“Learn this also, that before it came into this world, your soul had committed no sin, but we
come into the world unblemished, and, being here, sin of our own choice. Do not listen, I
say, to anyone who expounds ‘If then I do that which I would not, in the wrong sense, but
remember who says, ‘If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat of the good land; but if ye
refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword,’ and what follows.” (Catechetical
Lectures IV. 19)

Jerome (347-420 AD) was a contemporary of Augustine. He opposed Augustine on a number of issues including free will versus determinism.
“God has bestowed us with free will. We are not necessarily drawn either to virtue or vice.
For when necessity rules, there is no room left either for damnation or the crown.” (Doctrine
of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 62)
John Chrysostom (349-407 AD) was a contemporary of Augustine. He also opposed
Augustine’s view of determinism.

“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost… it depends therefore on us and
on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords much help … It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and
bring to the end.” (John Chrysostom on Hebrews, Homily 12)

 

[TomL]

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Those he called, he also justified. There's no condition between being called and justified. It doesn't say, those he called, if they responded in belief, he also justified.

29 For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him

you left off verse 28

Romans 8:28 (NASB 2020) — 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


verse 29 and 30 are connected to it

Romans 8:28–30 (NASB 2020) — 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Those God knew in the past - that those he was in a relationship with were

predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.


it is not unconditional

 

[Rockson]

The following are some quotations from the early church fathers demonstrating that they held to free will. Ignatius (30-107 AD) was a disciple of the Apostle John. “Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God’s precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life.… If anyone is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.” (Ignatius, Epistle to the Magnesians, V) Clement of Rome (35-99 AD) knew Peter and Paul personally. Tradition has identified him with the Clement who is mentioned in Philippians 4:3. “For no other reason does God punish the sinner either in the present or future world, except because He knows that the sinner was able to conquer but neglected to gain the victory.” (Recognitions of Clement of Rome 111. 23, V. 8, IX. 30) Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) was an early Christian apologist who produced works defending and explaining Christianity. “But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. (First Apology, ch. 42, p. 177) “But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made. (First Apology, ch. 43, p. 177) “We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be…. For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.” (First Apology ch. 43) “But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins; and that it is by the influence of the wicked demons that earnest men, such as Socrates and the like, suffer persecution and are in bonds, while Sardanapalus, Epicurus, and the like, seem to be blessed in abundance and glory. The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both [virtue and vice]. (Second Apology, Ch. 7, p. 190) “…God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God…” (Second Apology ch. 141) “But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shallbe certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 141, p. 269-270) “Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be.” (Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 139, p. 269) “Here, then, is a proof of virtue, and of a mind loving prudence, to recur to the communion of the unity, and to attach one’s self to prudence for salvation, and make choice of the better things according to the free-will placed in man; (On the Sole Government of God, ch. 6, p.293) “Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praiseworthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.… unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 61) “I have proved in what has been said that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault. Rather, each man is what he will appear to be through his own fault.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) “In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) “Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) “The human race…from Adam had fallen under the power of death and the guile of the serpent. Each one had committed personal transgression.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) “The whole human race will be found to be under a curse. For it is written in the Law of Moses, ‘Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the Law and do them.’ And no one has accurately done them all.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 271) Tatian the Assyrian (110-172 AD) was a writer and theologian of the 2nd century. “We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) “The Logos… before the creation of men, was the Framer of angels. And each of these two orders of creatures was made free to act as it pleased, not having the nature of good, which again is with God alone, but is brought to perfection in men through their freedom of choice, in order that the bad man may be justly punished … but the just man be deservedly praised.… Such is the constitution of things in reference to angels and men.” (Address to the Greeks) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) was a disciple of Polycarp who himself was a disciple of the Apostle John. “But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) “This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will (toward us) is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves…” (God’s Strategy In Human History, p. 246) “‘Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’… And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’… All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man… For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287) “Nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon anyone unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill.… They have been created free agents and possessed of power over themselves.” (Vol. 1, p. 523) “But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shineth everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, p. 331) “…there is no coercion with God, but a good will is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves … If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others? But because man is possessed of free-will from the beginning, and God is possessed of free-will in whose likeness man was created, advise is always given to him to keep fast the good, which thing is done by means of obedience to God.” (Irenaeus Against Heresies, XXXVII)“ And in man, as well as in angels, [God] has placed the power of choice…so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good…but [they] poured contempt on His super-eminent goodness.” (Against Heresies 5:37) Irenaeus wrote that God sent His Son “as one who saves by persuasion, not compulsion, for compulsion is no attribute of God.” (Epistle to Diognetus 7:4) Melito of Sardis (Died 180 AD) “There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) Theophilus of Antioch (Died 183-185 AD) “If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 286) Athenagoras of Athens (133-190 AD) was an Ante-Nicene church father. He was Christian apologist who lived during the second half of the 2nd century. “Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice, so it is among the angels…Some free agents, you will observe, such as they were created by God, continued in those things for which God had made and over which he had ordained them; but some outraged both the constitution of their nature and the government entrusted to them.” (A Plea for the Christians 24) Clement of Alexandria (150-215 AD) was a Christian theologian and philosopher who taught at the School of Alexandria. He mentored Origen and Alexander of Jerusalem. “A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace.” Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21 “Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, Bk. 1, Ch. 17) “Nor shall he who is saved be saved against his will, for he is not inanimate; but he will above all voluntarily and of free choice speed to salvation. Wherefore also man received the commandments in order that he might be self-impelled, to whatever he wished of things to be chosen and to be avoided. Wherefore God does not do good by necessity, but from His free choice benefits those who spontaneously turn.” (Stromata, Bk 7 Ch.7) “The Lord clearly shows sins and transgressions to be in our own power.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 288)“Each one of us who sins with his own free will, chooses punishment. So the blame lies with him who chooses. God is without blame.” (A Dictionary of Early Christian Beliefs by David Bercot, p. 287) “‘If thou wilt be perfect.’ Consequently he was not yet perfect. For nothing is more perfect than what is perfect. And divinely the expression ‘if thou wilt’ showed the self-determination of the soul holding converse with Him. For choice depended on the man as being free; but the gift on God as the Lord. And He gives to those who are willing and are exceedingly earnest, and ask, that so their salvation may become their own. For God compels not (for compulsion is repugnant to God), but supplies to those who seek, and bestows on those who ask, and opens to those who knock.” (Clement of Alexandria c. 195) “Neither promises nor apprehensions, rewards, no punishments are just if the soul has not the power of choosing and abstaining; if evil is involuntary.” (Doctrine of the Will by Asa Mahan, p. 63) “So in no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originate sins…punishments are rightly inflicted.” (Stromata 1:17) “This was the law from the first, that virtue should be the object of voluntary choice.” (Stromata 7:2) end pt1

Very informative post on the subject.

 

[TomL]

Very informative post on the subject.

Yes Free will was the standard

 

[Fool4Christ]

‘Augustine himself. (A wonderful saint! As full of pride, passion, bitterness, censoriousness, and as foul-mouthed to all that contradicted him… When Augustine’s passions were heated, his word is not worth a rush. And here is the secret: St. Augustine was angry at Pelagius: Hence he slandered and abused him, (as his manner was,) without either fear or shame. And St. Augustine was then in the Christian world, what Aristotle was afterwards: There needed no other proof of any assertion, than Ipse dixit: “St. Augustine said it.” ‘

– John Wesley, The Works of the Late Reverend John Wesley (1835 Edition), volume 2, p. 110

‘Calvinists have tried to say that the doctrine of man’s total inability is the historic position of the Church, but that is simply not true. Many take for granted that the Church has always held to the doctrine of total inability. Yet a study of history reveals that the doctrine of free will was universally taught by the Early Church, without exception, for the first three to four hundred years. The Early Church was continually defending the doctrine of free will and refuting the Gnostic’s who held to the doctrine of total inability and determinism or fatalism.

The Gnostic’s had a predestination philosophy, or a fatalistic mentality of “Que Sera, Sera (Whatever Will Be, Will Be.)”[1] But the Early Church believed that man’s free choice had a major contribution or ultimate determination to his course and destiny. The Gnostic’s, who claimed to be the real Christians, taught that man’s nature was so corrupted and ruined that man did not have a free choice between good and evil; while the Early Church taught that God has granted the faculty of free will to the nature of all mankind and has preserved that free will so that it has not been lost, as we shall see.

There are those today who make the doctrine of total inability an essential doctrine of the Christian faith and are quick to condemn anyone who would dare question or challenge it. But in the times of early Christianity, the doctrine of free will was considered orthodox and the doctrine of total inability was heretical. Being considered orthodox or heretical is merely a matter of dates. The Early Church said that only Gnostic’s deny the freedom of the will; yet many denominations of our day say that only heretics affirm it.

Gnosticism vs. Early Christianity

In the days of the Early Church, the debate between the freedom of man’s will vs. the total depravity of man’s nature was one of the major divisions between the early Christians and the Gnostic sects. Beausobre said, “…those ancient writers, in general, say that Manichaeans denied free-will. The reason is, that the Fathers believed, and maintained, against the Manichaeans, that whatever state man is in he has the command over his own actions, and has equally power to do good or evil.”[2] W. F. Hook said, “The Manichaeans so denied free will, as to hold a fatal necessity of sinning.”[3] Lyman Beecher said, “…the free will and natural ability of man were held by the whole church… natural inability was to that of the pagan philosophers, the Gnostic’s, and the Manichaeans.”[4]

There were many different Gnostic groups in the days of early Christianity, who also denied the freedom of man’s will, such as Marcionism started by Marcion. But one of the greatest competitors and threats to the Early Church was the Manichaeans started by Manes, a Persian philosopher, also known as Mani.

The Early Church debated the founder of this Gnostic group in the “Acta Archelai,” also known as “The Disputation with Manes.” Archelaus, a bishop in the Early Church, represented their doctrine that God does not make us with ruined natures but has given us free will. Mani took the Gnostic position that man’s nature was totally depraved and corrupted and that man did not have a free will.

The judges of the debate ruled in favor of Archelaeus and ruled against Mani, stating that man does in fact have free will as opposed to a depraved nature. The belief of early Christianity is stated in the debate in this way, “All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment… our will is constituted to choose either to sin or not to sin… And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment… There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases.”[5]

This debate of constitutional liberty vs. constitutional corruption between Mani and Archelaus dealt with the very core of Early Christianity vs. the emerging Gnosticism. The danger that the Early Church saw with the Gnostics was that they professed to be Christians and they claimed to be teaching Christian doctrine. In fact, the Gnostic’s declared that they were the real or true Christians who had special knowledge that others did not. The Church considered Manichaeans to be imposters and Manichaeism to be a counterfeit. The leaders of Christianity were worried that Gnostic doctrine might corrupt the Churches.

The Gnostics, for example, taught that the flesh was sinful in and of itself. Hans Jonas said that in Gnosticism, “The human body is of devilish substance and – in this trait exceeding the general derogation of the universe – also of a devilish design.”[6] Because the Gnostic’s viewed the flesh as a sinful substance, they denied that Jesus Christ came in the flesh, and that is why the Scriptures called them “antichrist” (1 Jn. 4:3, 2 Jn. 1:7). “And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is the spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world” (1 Jn. 4:3). “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist” (2 Jn. 1:7).

Gnosticism believes that sin is the substance of the body, which is inherited at conception, so that man is born sinful or with a sinful nature. The Early Church, on the other hand, taught that sin was a free choice of the will, which is originated by the individual. The Gnostics taught that man was sinful by nature, while the Early Church taught that man was sinful by choice.

It was referring to these Gnostic groups that John wrote, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us” (1 Jn. 2:19). We can see then that the teachings of the Gnostics were condemned in the Scriptures.

Excellent information, we can learn a lot from history. I just found something I wanted to share that I thought you might be interested in.

Here is part of it But I'll put the whole page below it.

Calvin was so greatly angered by this spiritual abuse of ignorant Catholics, having witnessed it firsthand in the mid 1500’s, that he researched the teachings of Augustine and surmised that he could utilize the Gnostic teaching of ‘predestination’ as a weapon against the Papacy. So, what is predestination exactly?

Calvinism vs Arminianism - Carl Joseph Ministries

John Calvin was a slick lawyer, who saw an opportunity to use the theological concept of predestination as a weapon against the Papacy of his day. The religious rites of Catholicism kept the ignorant in bondage, by means of ‘indulgences,’ which plagued humanity. Calvin’s scheme freed Europe from...

carljosephministries.com

 

[praise_yeshua]

Excellent information, we can learn a lot from history. I just found something I wanted to share that I thought you might be interested in.

Here is part of it But I'll put the whole page below it.

Calvin was so greatly angered by this spiritual abuse of ignorant Catholics, having witnessed it firsthand in the mid 1500’s, that he researched the teachings of Augustine and surmised that he could utilize the Gnostic teaching of ‘predestination’ as a weapon against the Papacy. So, what is predestination exactly?

Calvinism vs Arminianism - Carl Joseph Ministries

John Calvin was a slick lawyer, who saw an opportunity to use the theological concept of predestination as a weapon against the Papacy of his day. The religious rites of Catholicism kept the ignorant in bondage, by means of ‘indulgences,’ which plagued humanity. Calvin’s scheme freed Europe from...

carljosephministries.com

This is true but Calvin wasn't alone.

There many people in this life that fashion themselves as a "savior" of men ourselves.

2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

When you see someone talking about themselves (I'm chosen, I'm chosen)...... then you can know they are not preaching the message of Christ alone.

 

[Behold]

So, what is predestination exactly?

"Predestination".. is A Heretic's teaching.

He redefined "God's foreknowledge".....as "Pre-destined" and then just got rid of the Grace of God completely, as God gives it.

Here is "pre-destined"..

"Eeny, meeny, miny, moe, some of you have only been born to go......... to HELL".

That's Calvinism.

Now if you try to talk sensibly to them, ,and you say...

"OK, then which of your family.....did God pre-destine for Hell, before they were born?.... Your mother? Your Wife? Your 3rd Child"?

So, right there this insane theology flies off the chain, and right past Pluto., as now the Calvinist is stuck.

Because now they have to lie and say..>"well ALL of my Family, right back to the 1400's when we came from Spain......we are all the elect"...

But that is not true, as Calvin's God, did not pre-destine all of them for "ELECT"... .so was it their mother, brother, Grandmother who is pre-destined for Hell? Is it their Children?

So, if you really nail a Calvinist down to that level then its still not going to help as their MIND is OWNED by Calvin.

There mind is under lock and key and Calvin is not going to set them free.
It just gets worse as they age.

 

[TomL]

Oh, Almighty most revered God of the Ages, not the old gnostic thing again.

Predestined and predestination are words literally used in Scripture.

Yes, they just do not carry the Calvinist meaning