Better than the law...

[Soyeong]

You're ignoring the fact that you continually break these commandments. Which is proof of your failures. Why are you ignoring this?

The fact that I have broken God's commandments does not mean that I haven't also obeyed them. For example, there are times when I haven't obeyed the command to honor my parents, but there are also times when I have obeyed that command. Why are you ignoring that we can repent after we have broken God's commands and return to obedience to them through faith?

You are right about commandments guiding you. Commandments GUIDE you to realize your inabilities. Which force you to rely upon God instead of your own efforts.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed. Relying on our own efforts does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that relying on what God has instructed is relying on our own efforts.

Sure there is. If you can keep the commandments of God, then Christ didn't need to die.

There is of course nothing in the Bible that states anything like that.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I keep giving you the entirety of Scripture and you keep posting the same "few" Scriptures over and over again. Your theology does not deal with the entirety of Scripture. You continue to avoid this.

1. You are denying the Scriptures that prove you're wrong.
2. You're ignoring your own failures to keep the law. In fact, under the law, you should already be dead.

I completely agree with Galatians 2:21 and have never said anything contrary to it, so it does not prove me wrong, and there are no Scriptures that I deny. I quote from all over the Bible, so it false that I do not deal with the entirety of Scripture.

 

[Soyeong]

Sure there is. If you can keep the commandments of God, then Christ didn't need to die.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Someone would not earn their righteous as a wage by obeying God's law even if they managed to keep it perfectly (Romans 4:1-5), so the reason why we do not earn our righteousness by the law is not because we can't keep it, but because it was never given for the purpose of earning righteousness in the first place, though that doesn't mean that we aren't required to keep it for the purposes for which it was given.

 

[praise_yeshua]

The fact that I have broken God's commandments does not mean that I haven't also obeyed them. For example, there are times when I haven't obeyed the command to honor my parents, but there are also times when I have obeyed that command. Why are you ignoring that we can repent after we have broken God's commands and return to obedience to them through faith?

Cursing father and mother requires death according to the law of Moses. If you were judged according to the law, you would be dead already. Did you miss that part?

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed. Relying on our own efforts does not involve relying on anyone else, so it is contradictory to think that relying on what God has instructed is relying on our own efforts.

Did you rely on God when you failed to keep the law?

There is of course nothing in the Bible that states anything like that.

Sure it does.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I completely agree with Galatians 2:21 and have never said anything contrary to it, so it does not prove me wrong, and there are no Scriptures that I deny. I quote from all over the Bible, so it false that I do not deal with the entirety of Scripture.

You're saying that you can keep the law. If you can keep the law then Christ died in vain. Gal 2:21 is very clear. You're deflecting.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Someone would not earn their righteous as a wage by obeying God's law even if they managed to keep it perfectly (Romans 4:1-5), so the reason why we do not earn our righteousness by the law is not because we can't keep it, but because it was never given for the purpose of earning righteousness in the first place, though that doesn't mean that we aren't required to keep it for the purposes for which it was given.

False Gospel. The Scriptures prove you're wrong.

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

 

[Soyeong]

Cursing father and mother requires death according to the law of Moses. If you were judged according to the law, you would be dead already. Did you miss that part?

There is a pretty large gap between doing something that doesn't honor your parents and cursing them.

Did you rely on God when you failed to keep the law?

No, I rely on God when I repent and return to obedience to His law.

Sure it does.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That verse denies that we can become righteous as the result of keeping the law, but does not deny that we can keep it.

You're saying that you can keep the law. If you can keep the law then Christ died in vain. Gal 2:21 is very clear. You're deflecting.

I take the position that we can keep the law and that we do not earn our righteous as the result of keeping because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness even through perfect obedience, which is in accordance with Galatians 2:21.

False Gospel. The Scriptures prove you're wrong.

Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
Rom 2:24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

I have not made my boast of the law or suggest that we should break it, so I have not said anything contrary to those verses. In Romans 2:25, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6). In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ's Gospel called for obedience to God's law, so it is not a false Gospel.

 

[Wrangler]

You didn't join the thread I started.

Huh?

 

[praise_yeshua]

There is a pretty large gap between doing something that doesn't honor your parents and cursing them.

There is?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

No, I rely on God when I repent and return to obedience to His law.

You dishonor God by repeatedly breaking the law. You've become "uncircumcised". You just keep growing that foreskin.... right?

That verse denies that we can become righteous as the result of keeping the law, but does not deny that we can keep it.

Then why must you repent? You're establishing a scenario where righteousness remains even after you break the law. Repentance doesn't not reestablish your righteousness.

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

I take the position that we can keep the law and that we do not earn our righteous as the result of keeping because it was never given as a way of earning our righteousness in the first place even through perfect obedience, which is in accordance with Galatians 2:21.

Like you haven't said that how many times now? You're wrong and the Scriptures prove that you are wrong. You can't keep the law because you keep breaking it. It is an endless cycle for you. It is endless cycle for everyone. If you could keep the law, you would. You can't. You keep proving you can't. Better men than ourselves have all tried and failed.

I have not made my boast of the law or suggest that we should break it, so I have not said anything contrary to those verses. In Romans 2:25, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6). In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ's Gospel called for obedience to God's law, so it is not a false Gospel.

I don't care if you think you're boasting or not. If you could keep the law, it would grant you the right to boast. Which is what you're insisting you can do.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Huh?

You selectively quoted me. You can go back an read what I wrote again. The part that you selectively quoted.

 

[Wrangler]

You selectively quoted me. You can go back an read what I wrote again. The part that you selectively quoted.

Yea, OK. Thanks. Am I required to join a thread you start. What are you telling me?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yea, OK. Thanks. Am I required to join a thread you start. What are you telling me?

I continued the subject there. Join. Don't join. Up to you. Don't pretend to answer me when I appealed to starting a thread to continue the topic.

 

[Wrangler]

Don't pretend to answer me when I appealed to starting a thread to continue the topic.

Again, huh?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Again, huh?

Just forget it. I've tried multiple times to get you to understand my response and I'm tired of your dishonestly. You selectively quoted and gave a response to me........ You should have included ALL of my response and realized that I had started a thread. I'm getting tired of you insisting you're answering difficult questions with "one liners".

 

[Wrangler]

I'm getting tired of you insisting you're answering difficult questions with "one liners".

What a pompous statement. Who do you think you are?

The idea that you'll reject triniarianism if only I'd explain myself more is laughable.

Start with humility. Thank me for voluntarily engaging with you AND answering your question. I'm under no delusion that any answer I provide - other than the trinitarian preferred answer - will be met in something resembling a positive manner.

Little else can be expected to those who are devoted to violating the 1st and 2nd Commandment with their manmade doctrines.

 

[praise_yeshua]

What a pompous statement. Who do you think you are?

The idea that you'll reject triniarianism if only I'd explain myself more is laughable.

Start with humility. Thank me for voluntarily engaging with you AND answering your question. I'm under no delusion that any answer I provide - other than the trinitarian preferred answer - will be met in something resembling a positive manner.

Little else can be expected to those who are devoted to violating the 1st and 2nd Commandment with their manmade doctrines.

Such comments serve condemn you.

I don't think I'm anyone. Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. That is my issue with your comments.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus Christ is God Incarnate.

If only there was just one verse that come right out and said that, stated Jesus is not the son of God but YHWH incarnate. Instead, explicit words of Scripture include there is only one God, the Father. This necessarily means Jesus is NOT God. That’s my issue with your comments.

 

[Soyeong]

There is?

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Indeed, someone cursing their parents is also not the same as the curse in Deuteronomy 27-28. You're losing sight of the fact that I used it as an example of a law that I have kept at times, that I have not kept at other time, and that I have repented for the times that I have not kept it.

You dishonor God by repeatedly breaking the law. You've become "uncircumcised". You just keep growing that foreskin.... right?

There is a difference between someone who lives in unrepentant sin and someone who practices repentance if they sin and returns to obedience through faith.

Then why must you repent? You're establishing a scenario where righteousness remains even after you break the law. Repentance doesn't not reestablish your righteousness.

Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

There can be any number of reasons for why someone could be required to obey God's law other than in order to earn our righteousness as a wage. The one and only way to become righteous is through faith and repenting is inherently acting through faith.

Like you haven't said that how many times now? You're wrong and the Scriptures prove that you are wrong.

If I had said that we need to keep God's law in order to earn our righteousness as a wage, then you would be correct that Galatians 2:21 proves me wrong, however, that is not position, so you are incorrect that it proves me wrong.

You can't keep the law because you keep breaking it. It is an endless cycle for you. It is endless cycle for everyone. If you could keep the law, you would. You can't. You keep proving you can't. Better men than ourselves have all tried and failed.

Breaking a law does not negate all of the times that I have kept it. The fact that I have broken the command to honor my parents does not mean that have never done anything to honor my parents or that I am unable to do anything to honor them.

I don't care if you think you're boasting or not. If you could keep the law, it would grant you the right to boast. Which is what you're insisting you can do.

If I had earned my righteousness as the result of keeping God's law, then that would have given me something to boast in myself about, however, there are any number of reasons that I could have for keeping God's law that don't give me something to boast in myself about, such as faith and love. Believing that I can keep the law is simply a matter of believing God's word, not a matter of boasting in myself.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If only there was just one verse that come right out and said that, stated Jesus is not the son of God but YHWH incarnate. Instead, explicit words of Scripture include there is only one God, the Father. This necessarily means Jesus is NOT God. That’s my issue with your comments.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Notice the word "was". Even though the word "was" is used, it is not an indication that the Word ceased to be God. This is how Unitarians try to deny the Divinity of Christ. They pretend words such as "was" is an indication of a temporary state and not actually part of an indeterminate state.

I only use this an example wherein we can agree. That "was" is part of an indeterminate state. I will point out the next time you place such a burden upon communicated concepts.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Begotten does not established a limited state. It is simply part of indeterminate state wherein the Word is Eternally God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Indeed, someone cursing their parents is also not the same as the curse in Deuteronomy 27-28. You're losing sight of the fact that I used it as an example of a law that I have kept at times, that I have not kept at other time, and that I have repented for the times that I have not kept it.

I didn't say it was the same. It is part of the whole. You're denying the whole.

You have not continued in the law. You are cursed.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Tell me how you are freed from this clearly constructed curse wherein you are guilty.

There is a difference between someone who lives in unrepentant sin and someone who practices repentance if they sin and returns to obedience through faith.

No. There is no difference in construct. You're just like every other man. You have broken the law and are cursed because you can not continue to keep the law.

Repentance does not free you from your curse. You're trying your best to make yourself different than any other man. You're not. If you do not continue in the entirety of the law, you are cursed.

Christ became a curse for me. He alone is the remedy. Not only before.... but before, now, and forever.

 

[Soyeong]

I didn't say it was the same. It is part of the whole. You're denying the whole.

You have not continued in the law. You are cursed.

Deu 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Tell me how you are freed from this clearly constructed curse wherein you are guilty.



No. There is no difference in construct. You're just like every other man. You have broken the law and are cursed because you can not continue to keep the law.

Repentance does not free you from your curse. You're trying your best to make yourself different than any other man. You're not. If you do not continue in the entirety of the law, you are cursed.

Christ became a curse for me. He alone is the remedy. Not only before.... but before, now, and forever.

In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is about choosing the right mountain and climbing it, about choosing to serve God or to chase after other god's, not based on whether not we have perfect obedience. While everyone in the OT sinned, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods. We can serve God by being someone who has the goal of living in obedience to His law through faith, who repents if we sin, who continues to obey God's law, and who is under His blessing, or we can chase after other gods by refusing to submit to His law and come under a curse. The Bible repeatedly states that relying on God's law is the way to be blessed while refusing to rely on it is the way to be cursed (Deuteronomy 27-28)

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience to avoid being cursed. Thinking that we need to have perfect obedience in order to avoid being cursed would mean that God is an unloving Father who essentially gave the law with the goal of bringing death and a curse to His people, which would be expressing an extremely negative view of God for doing that and saying that we should not rely on God, but in reality God is a loving Father who can be relied about to give good gifts to His children, who gave His law for our own good in order to teach us how to be blessed (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13). Furthermore, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to keep His commandments, which are not burdensome, so deny that we can keep God's commandments is denying that anyone has ever loved God and denying that they are not burdensome.

Relying on what God has instructed has nothing to do with trying my best to make myself different from any other man. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed, denying that we should rely on what God has instructed is to way to deny that we should rely on God, and it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God, but not rely on what He has instructed. God's law is God's word, so it again is contradictory to think that we should rely on God's word made flesh, but not rely on God's word.

 

[praise_yeshua]

In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is about choosing the right mountain and climbing it, about choosing to serve God or to chase after other god's, not based on whether not we have perfect obedience.

That is not true. You are rationalizing away the requirement for judgment for breaking the law. You are making the law of God void through continued disobedience.

While everyone in the OT sinned, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods. We can serve God by being someone who has the goal of living in obedience to His law through faith, who repents if we sin, who continues to obey God's law, and who is under His blessing, or we can chase after other gods by refusing to submit to His law and come under a curse. The Bible repeatedly states that relying on God's law is the way to be blessed while refusing to rely on it is the way to be cursed (Deuteronomy 27-28)

No. It has nothing to do with claiming reliance. The issue is solely on obedience. Obedience you don't have. Which means you are cursed for continuedly breaking the law. However, you're not alone. All of humanity does this. You included. You're the one pretending that you don't and you false believe that repentance frees you from obligation.

I've had these arguments most of my entire life. Do you know what saying "I'm sorry" isn't a "fix". Saying "I'm sorry" doesn't provide a remedy. It is an indication of guilt. In your case and everyone's case, it is repeatedly an indication of lasting GUILT.