Need I say more?
Repentance and believing are the requirements given in some verses of Scripture. But they are not the ONLY requirements given in Scripture. And they do not come after salvation is received. They must happen BEFORE salvation is given by God.
I do not insert my own preconceptions into the text when I read it. The translator of any version of the Bible who put "assurance" and "conviction" in Heb 11:1 do.
This is the first thing you have said that is even close to right, and then you go and foul it up with your next sentence...
Yes, they are. Faith requires physical action or it isn't real/doesn't really exist.
Just as the human body without the spirit is dead, just a lump of clay that turns to dust, so too is "faith" that does not have action.
Wrong. Abraham was not saved before he left Ur, when His obedience of God began. He was saved THROUGH his actions, because of the promise of God.
Rahab was saved because of what she did.
A person is not a Christian who has no faith/dead faith. You lump sinners in with Christians.
Please show me the verse where it says "after salvation is received, then faith without action is dead". Or even anything remotely like that.
No, I did not forget that. There is nothing to boast about in surrender. There is no glory in submitting your will to that of someone else (God). Baptism is not a work to boast about. It is submission to God's command. It is throwing yourself at His feet and saying, "I can't do it. Nothing I do will save me. But you promised that if I surrender to you, you will save me. So I surrender to you, and trust that you will keep your word and save me."
If that were true, then Acts 2:38, Rom 10:9-10, Gal 3:26-27, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, and many other passages of Scripture are lies. They say that people who take the actions of confession Jesus as Lord (not to be confused with confession of sin), and being baptized will receive salvation as a result.
Rom 10:9-10 says that salvation is the result of confessing Jesus as Lord. Jesus Himself said that IF you confess me before men, THEN I will confess you before the Father. Our confession of Jesus MUST come BEFORE Jesus' confession of us, because His confession of us is dependent on our confession of Him.
Again, you are reading your own belief into Scripture, and twisting the words to fit what you want them to say.You mentioned Matthew 10:32 - Jesus Himself said that IF you confess me before men, THEN I will confess you before the Father.
Who was Jesus speaking to here? Nonbelievers, the unsaved? No, He was speaking to His twelve disciples and had been since the beginning of Matthew 10.
This is another proof that confession of Jesus is not a prerequisite to salvation, as you make it, but the behavior of someone who is already saved.
I read nothing into that Scripture, I just stated the facts. Nonbelievers don't go around confessing Jesus as their Lord, because they don't acknowledge that he is. But after they repent and put their faith in Jesus, they become born again. THEN they DO confess Jesus as their Lord.Again, you are reading your own belief into Scripture, and twisting the words to fit what you want them to say.
"Therefore, everyone who confesses Me before people, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before people, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven."
Sure, Jesus is talking TO the Apostles, the 12, but He is talking ABOUT everyone. EVERYONE who confesses me, THEN I will confess them. But ANYONE who denies me (if you don't confess Him, then you deny Him) THEN I will deny them.
Jesus is NOT their Lord if they aren't doing what He commanded in the first place (Luke 6:46).I read nothing into that Scripture, I just stated the facts. Nonbelievers don't go around confessing Jesus as their Lord, because they don't acknowledge that he is. But after they repent and put their faith in Jesus, they become born again. THEN they DO confess Jesus as their Lord.
This doesn't mean that the person who says it is saved. The Holy Spirit can, and does, work within the lives of those who are not yet saved to soften their hearts and bring them to the point of salvation."No one can say, 'Jesus is Lord', except by the Holy Spirit." 1 Corinthians 12:3
Nonbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit, so they're not going to say "Jesus is Lord".
It's obvious that Paul is talking about those who are speaking truthfully about what they believe in their heart.
What does "believe" mean? What does it mean to "believe" in Jesus?You are wrong, you don't do some work or works to get saved. You repent and believe in Jesus to get saved.
The Jews asked Jesus, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
"Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.' " John 6:28-29
I don't need to play your word games - you do plenty of that with the Scriptures/This doesn't mean that the person who says it is saved. The Holy Spirit can, and does, work within the lives of those who are not yet saved to soften their hearts and bring them to the point of salvation.
What does "believe" mean? What does it mean to "believe" in Jesus?
No word games. What does "believe" mean? As Inigo said in "The Princess Bride", "you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." So before we can use it in our discussion, you must explain what you mean by it. Otherwise, you may be talking about something completely different from what Scripture is talking about for all I know.I don't need to play your word games - you do plenty of that with the Scriptures/
I do not think you are less intelligent than I, or the people to whom Jesus was speaking in person. But I do think that you have a different understanding of what the word means (especially the Greek word that was translated "believe") in these passages.Jesus said "Repent and believe in the gospel." Oh by the way, do you know what "believe" means?
Jesus said "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." By the way, do you know what "believe"means?
Jesus said "Believe in God, believe also in Me." Do you happen to know what "believe" means?
Jesus said "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." Do you know what "believed" means?
John said "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." Do you know what "believe" or "believing" means?"
John said "So the other disciple who had first come to the tomb then also entered, and he saw and believed." Do you understand what "believed" means?
Paul said, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." Do you know what "believes" means?
Peter said, "... everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." Do you understand what "believes" means?
Jesus, John, Paul, Peter, and all the New Testament writers - none of them thought to ask the people what "believe" means. Yet they urged them, commanded them, and plead with them to "believe".
Why did none of them ask that question?
How could they expect the people to whom they were preaching to even understand what they were saying, if they didn't know what "believe" means?
Because they knew that the people they were talking to - did know what "believe" means.
Just like all those people, yes, I know what it means. So do you - and yet you willfully and deceitfully twist it's simple meaning, so that it lines up with the false doctrine of the Church of Christ. You don't have to quiz me on this word. The authors of the Bible never did, but apparently you feel you have to, because you're speaking to someone who is less intelligent than you, and even dumber than the people in the Bible, who needed no explanation.
That is what I thought. You have the correct Greek word, but you are of the mistaken opinion that "pisteuo" simply means intellectual assent, rather than accepting its true meaning.4100 in the Strong's Concordance pisteuo - look it up The Greek word translated "believe" means - wait for it- "to believe, entrust"
That is what I thought. You have the correct Greek word, but you are of the mistaken opinion that "pisteuo" simply means intellectual assent, rather than accepting its true meaning.
Pisteuo (πιστεύω) is the Greek verb for "to believe," "to have faith," or "to trust". It goes beyond intellectual agreement, implying a deep entrusting of one's spiritual well-being to a person or thing, relying on, and clinging to them.
From Strongs:
1. to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit
2. (by implication) to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ)
In EVERY case where "belief" is mentioned in connection with salvation, the Greek word used is "pisteuo" or another derivative of "pistis", and is a reference to faith, not just an intellectual assent.
This is where you go wrong. I do not agree that faith is simply intellectual assent or agreement. It goes beyond that, when it "travels" 15 inches down from your head into your heart and your spirit, now you have Biblical faith in Jesus.And faith, as defined and described in Scripture, is the combination of mental acceptance and actions in keeping with that acceptance. If there are no actions in keeping with the mental acceptance, then there really isn't any acceptance, just lip-service.
Nope, not even "heart felt" faith is real if it does not have action. Remember the leaders mentioned in John 12:42-43.This is where you go wrong. I do not agree that faith is simply intellectual assent or agreement. It goes beyond that, when it "travels" 15 inches down from your head into your heart and your spirit, now you have Biblical faith in Jesus.
All good down to here.First, the Father draws men to Jesus. Then they listen to what Jesus has to say, or what another person says about Jesus. Jesus tells them "Repent and believe in the gospel." Then they obey Him. They repent of their sins and they believe in Him, not simply with their head, but also with their heart.
But here you have things out of order. The Spirit does not forgive sin just because of heart felt anything. If He did, then Peter lied to the men on Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Those men were pricked in their heart. They felt remorse and believed. But still they lacked. They still needed to repent and submit to baptism in order for their sins to be forgiven. Their sins were not forgiven when they were pricked in their hearts.Then the Holy Spirit falls on them, forgives their sins and "baptizes" them into the body of Christ. This is also called being born again.1 Cor. 12:13
This is the actual point at which their sins are removed. When they are buried with Christ in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 22:16).Then they are led by the Spirit and filled with Him, and continuing in obedience to Jesus, they get baptized.
You start with truth, and you end with truth, but in the middle you get all confused. Study the Word more, not the false teachers of today's false religions.Then they go on to do other good works, which God prepared for them beforehand, and they bear much fruit.
You can't see faith, so you don't really know if those men had it or not. Yes, they compromised, sinned, by loving man's approval more than God's, but then, so have many other godly men - but when they repented, God forgave them, and they move on. Peter sinned when he loved the approval of the unsaved Jews, more than the approval of God. Did he not have "real" faith when he first believed? Of course he did. Also he loved the approval of the Roman soldiers over the approval of God and denied Jesus 3 times. Again, did Peter not have "real" faith? Yes, he did. He repented and God forgave him.Nope, not even "heart felt" faith is real if it does not have action. Remember the leaders mentioned in John 12:42-43.
You said, "The Spirit does not forgive sin just because of heart felt anything."All good down to here.
But here you have things out of order. The Spirit does not forgive sin just because of heart felt anything. If He did, then Peter lied to the men on Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Those men were pricked in their heart. They felt remorse and believed. But still they lacked. They still needed to repent and submit to baptism in order for their sins to be forgiven. Their sins were not forgiven when they were pricked in their hearts.
This is the actual point at which their sins are removed. When they are buried with Christ in baptism (Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Acts 22:16).
You start with truth, and you end with truth, but in the middle you get all confused. Study the Word more, not the false teachers of today's false religions.
If you can't see faith, then it doesn't really exist, because faith without action is dead.You can't see faith, so you don't really know if those men had it or not.
Scripture doesn't say anything about these men after that. They could have been part of the 3000 on Pentecost, but there is no indication of that.Yes, they compromised, sinned, by loving man's approval more than God's, but then, so have many other godly men - but when they repented, God forgave them, and they move on.
Sure he did. But he repented and turned back to Jesus after His resurrection. Judas on the other hand did not repent (although he could have), and so he lost salvation (if he had it to begin with) and was condemned.Peter sinned when he loved the approval of the unsaved Jews, more than the approval of God. Did he not have "real" faith when he first believed? Of course he did. Also he loved the approval of the Roman soldiers over the approval of God and denied Jesus 3 times. Again, did Peter not have "real" faith? Yes, he did. He repented and God forgave him.
Of course people with real faith continue to sin. That is not the question. We are still talking about the initial point of salvation, not those who have been saved. You keep wanting to jump forward to discuss those who have already been saved.Having "real" faith does not guarantee that you will never sin. In fact, we know that all believers sin at one time or another. So that proves nothing.
When faith is encountered, yes, He does. But intellectual assent is not faith, and never has been.You said, "The Spirit does not forgive sin just because of heart felt anything."
Not true at all. When the Holy Spirit encounters repentance and faith, He forgives sin immediately. Luke 24:47
That is not true. He told them to repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness. You keep wanting to take that verse apart and have him saying, repent in order to receive forgiveness and then be baptized because you have been forgiven. That is NOT what God told Peter to say, or what God told Luke to write that he said. He told them to repent and be baptized (both equally linked to the rest of the sentence) in order to receive forgiveness of their sins.Which is why Peter told the men on Pentecost, first of all, to repent, at which time they were forgiven.
When someone believes they must be baptized in order to be saved, they are trusting in their own works instead of the finished work of Christ on the cross. This is the ultimate slap in the face of Jesus. "I cannot trust in what you did, Jesus. I must add to what you did. I will add two things: 1. I will confess with my mouth Jesus as my Lord and 2. I will get baptized. Only then can I be sure that I am saved."If you can't see faith, then it doesn't really exist, because faith without action is dead.
Heresy.Scripture doesn't say anything about these men after that. They could have been part of the 3000 on Pentecost, but there is no indication of that.
Sure he did. But he repented and turned back to Jesus after His resurrection. Judas on the other hand did not repent (although he could have), and so he lost salvation (if he had it to begin with) and was condemned.
Of course people with real faith continue to sin. That is not the question. We are still talking about the initial point of salvation, not those who have been saved. You keep wanting to jump forward to discuss those who have already been saved.
When faith is encountered, yes, He does. But intellectual assent is not faith, and never has been.
That is not true. He told them to repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness. You keep wanting to take that verse apart and have him saying, repent in order to receive forgiveness and then be baptized because you have been forgiven. That is NOT what God told Peter to say, or what God told Luke to write that he said. He told them to repent and be baptized (both equally linked to the rest of the sentence) in order to receive forgiveness of their sins.
Not a single word of what you wrote above is correct. You continue to spin God's commands in a way that perverts God's intent and instruction.When someone believes they must be baptized in order to be saved, they are trusting in their own works instead of the finished work of Christ on the cross. This is the ultimate slap in the face of Jesus. "I cannot trust in what you did, Jesus. I must add to what you did. I will add two things: 1. I will confess with my mouth Jesus as my Lord and 2. I will get baptized. Only then can I be sure that I am saved."
Your opinion, but it is wrong.Heresy.
