Augustine's unbiblical doctrine of Amillennialism

[DavP]

Darby systematized the latest iteration of an Israel based, futurist, premillennialism with a rapture. Systematized.

That's pretty much a disorganization of ideas.

Darby's Dispensationalism is where the idea of a separate restored Israel apart from Christ's Church comes from, because he taught the Church remains in Heaven after being raptured prior to the tribulation, while Israel is restored on earth. NONE of that agrees with Bible Scripture, and that was my point. Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 that believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ have become the "children of Abraham", and will INHERIT with faithful Abraham. End of story.

When Lord Jesus returns back to the Mount of Olives in our near future, as written, that... will be the last day of this present world, called the "day of the Lord", but the very 1st day of His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. That is what the Pre-mill idea is, and has NO connection whatsoever with John Darby's false pre-trib rapture.

That is, all those beliefs had been circulating in the church long before Darby put it all together for a new, systematized premillennialism. (Dispensational premillennialism). There are other forms of premillennialism that don't find their root in dispensationalism, but align with it in that they both have a similar view of Israel in the end times. (Even Augustine had to admit that the Bible seemed clear on a future for Israel, one that he could not get around.)

That above is simply myth, those on the false pre-trib rapture trying to establish a basis for the doctrine prior to the 1800s. Doesn't work.

Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain were the FIRST to preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in the Christian Church.

The Jews also believed that the Messiah's coming (except they only believed in one coming) would come after tribulation, and that at the Messiah's coming, he would destroy Israel's enemies, and bring in His Kingdom in Jerusalem. This is what the disciples understood.

The false Pre-trib Rapture theory has nothing to do with what the Jews believed at Jesus' 1st coming.

The Jews in the day of Christ's Apostles looked for Messiah to come, as prophesied in the Old Testament prophets given from God. But you will find NOTHING written in those prophets about a rapture prior to the time of trouble per Daniel 12:1.

Instead, Lord Jesus per Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19 reveals a time of affliction upon His saints for the end, and then shows His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation. God's Word is actually pretty easy as long as one reads it as written, instead of heeding the Biblically illiterate and antichrists.

 

[armylngst]

There are a couple of things about the Olivet discourse that I think are significant, but seem to be missed by many who try to put all of it in the future. Verse 34 says that the generation to whom He was speaking right then would not pass away before the things He had just said would take place. These are the events that took place in AD70. Then, after that, He talks about things that are still future to us: the Second Coming.

The generation that Jesus is speaking of are those who see and recognize the signs. Future. That generation will not pass away before the end comes. Jesus was speaking to that later generation, like when God told Simeon that he would not die until he had seen the redemption of Israel. He indeed saw Jesus before he died. The events of the first few verses before the Olivet Discourse are separate from the Olivet Discourse. Jesus was not speaking of 70AD.

 

[armylngst]

That's pretty much a disorganization of ideas.

Darby's Dispensationalism is where the idea of a separate restored Israel apart from Christ's Church comes from, because he taught the Church remains in Heaven after being raptured prior to the tribulation, while Israel is restored on earth. NONE of that agrees with Bible Scripture, and that was my point. Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 that believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ have become the "children of Abraham", and will INHERIT with faithful Abraham. End of story.

Even Augustine understood that scripture spoke of a plan for the Jews at the end. The church had no love loss for the Jews in Augustine's time, and as hard as he tried, he could not find any other meaning in scripture. Paul is clear in Romans that the Jews were disobedient (rejected Christ) so that God could have mercy on the Gentiles, and through the obedience of the Gentiles, the Jews would also be saved. God has bound up all in disobedience so that mercy can be shown to all. You keep forgetting that Israel was and remains God's chosen people on Earth. A chosen nation. The congregation of Israel. However, there is now also the congregation of the church. God never rejected Israel, but locked them in disobedience so that He might also have mercy on the Gentiles. When all is said and done, all will be one.

When Lord Jesus returns back to the Mount of Olives in our near future, as written, that... will be the last day of this present world, called the "day of the Lord", but the very 1st day of His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. That is what the Pre-mill idea is, and has NO connection whatsoever with John Darby's false pre-trib rapture.

We can't be sure his rapture is false, however a mid-trib rapture may be more in line with scripture. For instance, the Jewish people were not separated from the judgements falling on Egypt until half way through. That was when God's pestering type of plagues became more wrathful. Winding up to destruction. God separated Goshen from Egypt, and the Israelites their did not suffer at all from the later plagues. And for the final plague, God gave them protection through the blood of a lamb.

That above is simply myth, those on the false pre-trib rapture trying to establish a basis for the doctrine prior to the 1800s. Doesn't work.

Actually, it works pretty well. Brother Dolcimo taught the rapture some centuries before Darby was born. An early church father spoke of a rapture many centuries before that. Of course, no one wants you to know that, so they don't talk about it.

Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain were the FIRST to preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in the Christian Church.

That is a blatant lie because no one can know who was the first, unless you were everywhere on earth, in every church, from the first century until Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby spoke. I used to believe that these things were recent, until I actually took the time to do some research. It turns out that just like every other piece of theology, it has always existed in some form in the church, and then someone systematizes those beliefs.

The false Pre-trib Rapture theory has nothing to do with what the Jews believed at Jesus' 1st coming.

The Jews in the day of Christ's Apostles looked for Messiah to come, as prophesied in the Old Testament prophets given from God. But you will find NOTHING written in those prophets about a rapture prior to the time of trouble per Daniel 12:1.

Instead, Lord Jesus per Matthew 24:21, Mark 13:19 reveals a time of affliction upon His saints for the end, and then shows His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation. God's Word is actually pretty easy as long as one reads it as written, instead of heeding the Biblically illiterate and antichrists.

If you are looking for a possible mention of some kind of rapture/separation, then you would have to go to the Shepherd of Hermas from the second century.

 

[armylngst]

Preterists have asserted a pretty bold claim that all the things of Revelation occurred before or on 70 AD. They MUST therefore have the writing of Revelations to take place before that date. I would tend to think that if that were true God would know it would be crucial to define when Revelation was written. I would expect a statement similar to Luke 2: 1,2 on a different subject

Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census should be taken of the whole empire. 2This was the first census to take place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.

If preterims were true I'd expect a statement like that. It would have settled the issue. We don't read of such a qualifier therefore I'd hold that seeing God didn't want to see the time frame closed it leads me to believe in futurism at least with most of the things within Revelation.

Just consider what is going on today with Israel. It seems to be falling in line with the things that futurists say will/must happen. Postmillennialists are going to have a lot of issues with this.

 

[armylngst]

That's pretty much a disorganization of ideas.

Darby's Dispensationalism is where the idea of a separate restored Israel apart from Christ's Church comes from, because he taught the Church remains in Heaven after being raptured prior to the tribulation, while Israel is restored on earth. NONE of that agrees with Bible Scripture, and that was my point. Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 that believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ have become the "children of Abraham", and will INHERIT with faithful Abraham. End of story.

When Lord Jesus returns back to the Mount of Olives in our near future, as written, that... will be the last day of this present world, called the "day of the Lord", but the very 1st day of His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. That is what the Pre-mill idea is, and has NO connection whatsoever with John Darby's false pre-trib rapture.



That above is simply myth, those on the false pre-trib rapture trying to establish a basis for the doctrine prior to the 1800s. Doesn't work.

Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby in 1830's Great Britain were the FIRST to preach the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in the Christian Church.

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373) “All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”

I should only need that one, but there are other statements throughout church history.

 

[DavP]

Even Augustine understood that scripture spoke of a plan for the Jews at the end. The church had no love loss for the Jews in Augustine's time, and as hard as he tried, he could not find any other meaning in scripture. Paul is clear in Romans that the Jews were disobedient (rejected Christ) so that God could have mercy on the Gentiles, and through the obedience of the Gentiles, the Jews would also be saved. God has bound up all in disobedience so that mercy can be shown to all. You keep forgetting that Israel was and remains God's chosen people on Earth. A chosen nation. The congregation of Israel. However, there is now also the congregation of the church. God never rejected Israel, but locked them in disobedience so that He might also have mercy on the Gentiles. When all is said and done, all will be one.

As I have said before, the doctrine of Amillennialism began in the 2nd century A.D., not with Augustine who lived in the 4th century A.D. Augustine only made the theory more popular in his day, that's all.

The 1st century Church fathers were all Pre-Millennialists, which is a no brainer, because that is actually what God's Word teaches. And what God's Word actually teaches is what those in Christ should endeavor to follow.

We can't be sure his rapture is false, however a mid-trib rapture may be more in line with scripture. For instance, the Jewish people were not separated from the judgements falling on Egypt until half way through. That was when God's pestering type of plagues became more wrathful. Winding up to destruction. God separated Goshen from Egypt, and the Israelites their did not suffer at all from the later plagues. And for the final plague, God gave them protection through the blood of a lamb.

No such thing as a 'pre-tribulation rapture', and that's the difference. That idea is nowhere written in God's Word.

But there is written the idea of the saints still alive on earth at Jesus' future coming being "caught up" to Him on His way to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, on earth, per Zechariah 14, Matthew 24:29-31, and Mark 13:24-27.

The idea of a "mid-trib" rapture is nothing more than a modified version of a Pre-tribulation Rapture theory. Both pre-trib and mid-trib theories push a FALSE rapture prior to the end of the tribulation. The Bible teaches a gathering of the Church by Jesus AFTER... the tribulation. End of story.

Actually, it works pretty well. Brother Dolcimo taught the rapture some centuries before Darby was born. An early church father spoke of a rapture many centuries before that. Of course, no one wants you to know that, so they don't talk about it.

That is a blatant lie because no one can know who was the first, unless you were everywhere on earth, in every church, from the first century until Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby spoke. I used to believe that these things were recent, until I actually took the time to do some research. It turns out that just like every other piece of theology, it has always existed in some form in the church, and then someone systematizes those beliefs.

If you are looking for a possible mention of some kind of rapture/separation, then you would have to go to the Shepherd of Hermas from the second century.

You are obviously not interested in what God's Word teaches as written on the matter, so there's no use in conversing with a non-believer of Bible Scripture. So....

... another one bites the dust. Welcome to my IGNORE LIST.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

There are false statements being made. and historical facts and scripture being given to refute them. see even my previous comment. but still untruth is being stated. Here is yet one more evidence. from the OT. God's people carried away, hiding in rooms prepared for them until the time of God's wrath is done. Isaiah 26:20-21 LSB — Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation passes by. For behold, Yahweh is about to come out from His place To visit the iniquity of the inhabitants of the earth; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover those of hers who were killed.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Here is a site that lists early church sources for dispensationsal writings. I haven't checked them all out. but before claims are made that darby made it up by himself, each source should be examined and refuted if possible.

Historical Evidences of Dispensationalism

Aside from scriptural evidence, history will also prove that dispensationalism is not only the right doctrine but has also been used to rightly divide the word of God in previous centuries. Critics often attribute dispensational doctrine to men like Darby, Scofield, and Ruckman. However, history...

realbiblebelievers.com

 

[Doug Brents]

The generation that Jesus is speaking of are those who see and recognize the signs. Future. That generation will not pass away before the end comes. Jesus was speaking to that later generation, like when God told Simeon that he would not die until he had seen the redemption of Israel. He indeed saw Jesus before he died. The events of the first few verses before the Olivet Discourse are separate from the Olivet Discourse. Jesus was not speaking of 70AD.

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."
Jesus is not speaking of some future generation. He is speaking of the generation of people alive and listening to Him speak at that moment. Yes, parts of the Olivet Discourse do relate to events that are still future to us, but there are parts of it that are past, and occurred before those people listening to Him on the mountain died.

 

[DavP]

There are false statements being made. and historical facts and scripture being given to refute them. see even my previous comment. but still untruth is being stated. Here is yet one more evidence. from the OT. God's people carried away, hiding in rooms prepared for them until the time of God's wrath is done. Isaiah 26:20-21 LSB — Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation passes by. For behold, Yahweh is about to come out from His place To visit the iniquity of the inhabitants of the earth; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover those of hers who were killed.

That Isaiah 26 example is NOT what man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory preaches though. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory preaches being 'raptured' to Heaven by Christ prior... to the start of the great tribulation.

The Isaiah 26 idea of 'chambers' is a comparison to the chambers of the children of Israel during the passover event in Egypt. They didn't leave, they were protected by God.

Likewise, those in Christ still alive on earth going through the great tribulation, will be protected 'spiritually' from the 'hour of temptation' (i.e., the deception of bowing in false worship to the Antichrist). We don't have to go anywhere to be protected from that, for that is what God's SEALING of His servants for the end is about, so as to not be deceived by the Antichrist when he appears.

And per 2 Thessalonians 2 by Apostle Paul, he showed clearly that Antichrist must be revealed first, before Jesus comes to gather His Church and destroy that Wicked one. And that matches the timing of His coming to gather His saints that He said in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

Thusly, NOTICE brethren how I have given solid Scripture evidence by Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul to show Jesus comes AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, and not before. Those who disagree with that Scripture evidence disagree directly with Jesus Christ in His Word, and not with me!

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."
Jesus is not speaking of some future generation. He is speaking of the generation of people alive and listening to Him speak at that moment. Yes, parts of the Olivet Discourse do relate to events that are still future to us, but there are parts of it that are past, and occurred before those people listening to Him on the mountain died.

This misunderstanding of generation comes up often. you can not just look at English translations to get at proper meaning. The term as translated should more accurately be race or people. This is referring back to verse 21 22 where great tribulation is predicted. Many will die but God's chosen people of Israel will not be wiped out. have to always study in context

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

That Isaiah 26 example is NOT what man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory preaches though. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory preaches being 'raptured' to Heaven by Christ prior... to the start of the great tribulation.

The Isaiah 26 idea of 'chambers' is a comparison to the chambers of the children of Israel during the passover event in Egypt. They didn't leave, they were protected by God.

Likewise, those in Christ still alive on earth going through the great tribulation, will be protected 'spiritually' from the 'hour of temptation' (i.e., the deception of bowing in false worship to the Antichrist). We don't have to go anywhere to be protected from that, for that is what God's SEALING of His servants for the end is about, so as to not be deceived by the Antichrist when he appears.

And per 2 Thessalonians 2 by Apostle Paul, he showed clearly that Antichrist must be revealed first, before Jesus comes to gather His Church and destroy that Wicked one. And that matches the timing of His coming to gather His saints that He said in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

Thusly, NOTICE brethren how I have given solid Scripture evidence by Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul to show Jesus comes AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church, and not before. Those who disagree with that Scripture evidence disagree directly with Jesus Christ in His Word, and not with me!

Incorrect.

 

[civic]

Here is a site that lists early church sources for dispensationsal writings. I haven't checked them all out. but before claims are made that darby made it up by himself, each source should be examined and refuted if possible.

Historical Evidences of Dispensationalism

Aside from scriptural evidence, history will also prove that dispensationalism is not only the right doctrine but has also been used to rightly divide the word of God in previous centuries. Critics often attribute dispensational doctrine to men like Darby, Scofield, and Ruckman. However, history...

realbiblebelievers.com

Thanks for the link my friend

 

[DavP]

"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: as soon as its branch has become tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33 so you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away."
Jesus is not speaking of some future generation. He is speaking of the generation of people alive and listening to Him speak at that moment. Yes, parts of the Olivet Discourse do relate to events that are still future to us, but there are parts of it that are past, and occurred before those people listening to Him on the mountain died.

Nah... Jesus is speaking ABOUT... the FINAL GENERATION that will SEE His future coming.

The time anchor He gave in that Scripture (which you just whisked and bypassed over), is the "when ye shall see all these things"!

What things? The 7 main SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return that He was revealing there in His Olivet discourse, to His disciples then, and to us all the way... to the end of this world, and that means us today too, His Church.

I mean, who doesn't have enough common sense to grasp that the SIGNS Jesus was giving there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are about events at the end of this world, with the final SIGN He gave being that of His future return and gathering of His Church, and ending this present world? Those are the THINGS he said that generation would see!!!

So did Christ's disciples in the 1st century A.D. SEE Jesus' 2nd coming??? NO! of course not! That means, they were NOT the generation He was pointing to, but instead pointing to the LAST GENERATION on earth that will SEE His coming! It's that simple!

I'm so surprised that so many brethren are so easily duped on that, and will listen to the charlatans out their which mislead.

 

[EclipseEventSigns]

Nah... Jesus is speaking ABOUT... the FINAL GENERATION that will SEE His future coming.

The time anchor He gave in that Scripture (which you just whisked and bypassed over), is the "when ye shall see all these things"!

What things? The 7 main SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return that He was revealing there in His Olivet discourse, to His disciples then, and to us all the way... to the end of this world, and that means us today too, His Church.

I mean, who doesn't have enough common sense to grasp that the SIGNS Jesus was giving there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are about events at the end of this world, with the final SIGN He gave being that of His future return and gathering of His Church, and ending this present world? Those are the THINGS he said that generation would see!!!

So did Christ's disciples in the 1st century A.D. SEE Jesus' 2nd coming??? NO! of course not! That means, they were NOT the generation He was pointing to, but instead pointing to the LAST GENERATION on earth that will SEE His coming! It's that simple!

I'm so surprised that so many brethren are so easily duped on that, and will listen to the charlatans out their which mislead.

I study the original words of the text. Not English w biased translations

 

[DavP]

I study the original words of the text. Not English w biased translations

As I said, so did the Blind Pharisees read the original words of the Biblical texts.

 

[Doug Brents]

This misunderstanding of generation comes up often. you can not just look at English translations to get at proper meaning. The term as translated should more accurately be race or people. This is referring back to verse 21 22 where great tribulation is predicted. Many will die but God's chosen people of Israel will not be wiped out. have to always study in context

Again, verse 21 and 22 were also talking about people during the generation that was alive in Jesus' lifetime.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nah... Jesus is speaking ABOUT... the FINAL GENERATION that will SEE His future coming.

The time anchor He gave in that Scripture (which you just whisked and bypassed over), is the "when ye shall see all these things"!

What things? The 7 main SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return that He was revealing there in His Olivet discourse, to His disciples then, and to us all the way... to the end of this world, and that means us today too, His Church.

I mean, who doesn't have enough common sense to grasp that the SIGNS Jesus was giving there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are about events at the end of this world, with the final SIGN He gave being that of His future return and gathering of His Church, and ending this present world? Those are the THINGS he said that generation would see!!!

So did Christ's disciples in the 1st century A.D. SEE Jesus' 2nd coming??? NO! of course not! That means, they were NOT the generation He was pointing to, but instead pointing to the LAST GENERATION on earth that will SEE His coming! It's that simple!

I'm so surprised that so many brethren are so easily duped on that, and will listen to the charlatans out their which mislead.

Just for clarity and so we are talking about the same thing, what are the 7 main SIGNS of the end as you see them?

 

[DavP]

Just for clarity and so we are talking about the same thing, what are the 7 main SIGNS of the end as you see them?

The SIGNS Jesus gave in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6 which Jesus gave to His Church via Apostle John.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory school tries to use the excuse that those Signs were for the Apostle's days, or at least started in the Apostle's days, and was for the Jews, which is not true. They dream up just any excuse to NOT apply them to the end events of this world leading up to Christ's future return, which is actually what they are about, and is what the SEALS of Rev.6 are also about.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of Christ's Book of Revelation are about just those same 7 main Signs of the end, but broken into 21 events in Revelation.

I will do a study (don't know what area on the forum) to show the parallel of Christ's Olivet Signs with Rev.6, for those brethren interested.

 

[civic]

The SIGNS Jesus gave in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 parallel the SEALS of Revelation 6 which Jesus gave to His Church via Apostle John.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory school tries to use the excuse that those Signs were for the Apostle's days, or at least started in the Apostle's days, and was for the Jews, which is not true. They dream up just any excuse to NOT apply them to the end events of this world leading up to Christ's future return, which is actually what they are about, and is what the SEALS of Rev.6 are also about.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials of Christ's Book of Revelation are about just those same 7 main Signs of the end, but broken into 21 events in Revelation.

I will do a study (don't know what area on the forum) to show the parallel of Christ's Olivet Signs with Rev.6, for those brethren interested.

This section is fine to start a new thread with your study on the topic. I look forward to seeing the new thread on the topic.