Wrangler
Active Member
You certainly do rely on a lot of non-Biblical sources to support your positin.
Are we told to worship Jesus or are we told to worship God?
- Thread starter MatthewG
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Grace ambassador
Active Member
Precious friend, @Johann, excellent work 'planting seed and watering it' =
Best thing to do now is to simply obey Romans 16:17, and just move along to encourage
and edify others, since only "God Gives the increase" (1 Corinthians 3:6)
Otherwise we are just endlessly "bashing them over the head" With Scriptures. Amen?
Wrangler
Active Member
It's IDOLATRY. The 4th century man-is-god thesis is the best example of idolatry, nowhere to be found in Scripture.
Jesus says to worship the Father, who alone is God. 1 COR 8:6 'For us, there is one God, the Father.' This means nothing to IDOLATOR'S. They have their 4th century IDOL and nothing will sway them from worshipping it.
Johann
Active Member
Excellent advice-wouldn't want to "bash" them with Scriptures.
2Ti 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
2Ti 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Shalom
That is why it was confusing to listen to all the answers other people were giving. To me if a person who follows after the Lord Jesus, they would have the attention to pay attention to the things that he says because they are of spirit and of life. It has to do with just dismissing the Lord Jesus what baffles, me. While Jesus was on earth, he prayed, and worshipped his Father in spirit and truth all the days of his life. That was why he states that to that person whom he had met at the well, which was that he was the eternal well of life giving water, and that the messiah was speaking with her, and the importance of what the Father seeks, which is for his adopted Children to call out to him, and (I personally pray in Jesus name to the Father), I do not really feel the need to speak to Jesus ? In my prayers because I believe he is already with me. Praying to be able to have help with walking in faith, to be a faithful person, and to trust that Yahava, or some say Yahweh, is their in their lives, and that it is all spiritually based, and individuals experience, who seek for truth, are rewarded in spiritual means as they continue to go about abiding in the Lord Jesus, which lead to doing good works for God, by allowing Christ in and through oneself.
Praying to the Father was also what Jesus had taught with the model prayer when he was with his disciples at one point. I believe to me personally Jesus Christ, is the Lord but not the LORD GOD, after overcoming and sitting down with his Father, God is all in all, to me signfiying that Jesus and the Father had become One again, and Jesus was at his former glory which he had with his Father in the beginning, and they combined by this sitting, are granted the title of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY, however that does not replace the Father, over the son, there is a very distinct order that seems to be at play if one really thinks about it.
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civic
Active Member
Since Jesus said all the scriptures are about Him and the Holy Spirit would bear witness of Him. Jesus is my starting and finishing point. His teachings come first and the rest of the teaching line up under His and must not contradict what He taught.
Wrangler
Active Member
"That" may not place the Father - who alone is God - with his son but many other things do place God over he servant, lamb, word, son, apostle, priest, etc. Not the least of which is that, by definition, son's are created Beings. Another vitally important word is OF. Jesus is OF God, which means he is NOT God.
It is God alone who is Most High over the Earth.
Psalms 83:18 (REV) that they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High over all the earth.
Moreover, God raised Jesus from the dead. Romans 10:9. Jesus did not raise God from the dead.
Jesus submitted to the will of God. God did not submit to the will of Jesus.
Then God sent Jesus, told us what to say and how to say it. Not a God who has no authority and does not even have an independent will that cannot even say what he wants or how he wants to say it.
John12:49 (NLT)
I don’t speak on my own authority. The Father who sent me has commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Jesus said he has a God, who is YHWH. It is silly to claim that God has a God. YHWH never said he had a God whose name is Jesus.
All this places God over Jesus. NOTE: 1 COR 11:3 does not say as the trinitarians would prefer, "the Father" but God - in his unitarian nature - is the head of Jesus.
Makes sense to me.
Since Jesus said all the scriptures are about Him and the Holy Spirit would bear witness of Him. Jesus is my starting and finishing point. His teachings come first and the rest of the teaching line up under His and must not contradict what He taught.
This is the same thing SDA, JW, LDS, Baptist, AOG, Non-Denominational, Catholic, Lutheran and the rest of the religious preachers of this world "Who come in Christ's Name" say as well.
And yet, all these religions promote different doctrines, adopt and promote the views and opinions of different religious philosophers, walk in and promote known doctrines, traditions, even high days created by men.
While I agree that the Holy Scriptures teach about the Messiah, I also understand that the Messiah promoted who HE called "The One True God", and that HE was Destined to sit on the Right Hand of this Same God, regardless of what religious men, "who professed to know God", would do to Him. And that from this throne at the Right Hand of His Father, He is Advocating between me and His Father, for my saving and salvation.
This is why I engaged in this great topic. To remind folks, not what a random preacher teaches, or random religious businesses or sects promote, but to offer up the Words of this Same Christ regarding who we should worship,
In the world I was born into, there is a popular "image of God" created by religious man centuries ago, in the likeness of a handsome long-haired man. Since no man had seen the God and Father of Jesus, that the Jesus of the Bible tells us to worship, and this same God who Jesus said was Greater than Him, forbids creating images of God in the likeness of men, this raises a red flag for me.
Since all these differing "random preachers" promote different doctrines, many of which are contrary to the Words of God and the Words of the Holy One of Israel, who this God Sent, as HE tells us;
Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, "hath sent me."
17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
I asked my Savior, what's with all these religions who transgress God's Commandments by their own religious traditions?
Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and "shall" deceive many.
This is why I don't listen to random voices in the garden God placed me in. I want to share these things with others, that they might escape the snare as well.
civic
Active Member
No Jesus said many times that salvation/eternal life was found in HIM alone. You do not come to Me that you might have life, the scriptures testify of Me.
Salvation is found in the Lord- He is the One Lord, the Only Lord, the Lord over all, the Sovereign Lord etc..... There is no other name but His to be saved. One must confess Jesus is Lord to be saved, believe in Him alone for their salvation. He is the Savior of the world. There is no other Savior but Christ alone. It is Christ the Lord who saves man from their sins.
1 Corinthians 8:6
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism
Romans 10:9-13
1 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
Jude 4
and deny our only Sovereign and Lord, Jesus Christ.
hope this helps !!!
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The Pharisees, who Jesus was speaking to here, didn't believe Moses, and Abraham was not their father. They were the children of the devil. Had they believed Moses or done the Works of Abraham, they would have known the Christ when HE came, just as Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, knew the Christ when HE came. Jesus, nor any of the Scriptures, ever said Salvation exists apart from His Father, the One True God. Although "many" who come in Christ's Name, preach that it does.
John 6: 44 "No man" can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me "draw him": and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught "of God". Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
You see what I mean Civic? Jesus actually teaches one thing, while you are promoting a doctrine altogether different. I think this is why we are told to "Take Heed" of the "many" who come in Christ's Name. That we are not convinced of things about God and His Son which are not true, according to Scriptures. That is what "deceived" means, Yes? To believe things which are not true?
John 5: 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, "and" believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
This ONE Lord tells me, and I believe in Him, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee "the only true God", "and" Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
His Apostles understood this as well.
Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
We are reconciled to God, whose Commandments we broke. We are not reconciled to the Messiah. He is the Priest of God. He advocates between God and Man. There is no other Advocate, NO other Priest of God through which God forgives Sin.
I know this world's religious men preach otherwise, but the scriptures say what they say. This is why I don't listen to random preachers, and is also why God, His Son, and the Apostles God gave His Son, all warn about men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
Saved from what? Why do we need saved? Why do we need a Priest? Who did we sin against? What do we need an Advocate for? An advocate between who? Who is the New Man supposed to be created after?
"And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Like the Jesus of the Bible is. Is this not why the Jesus "of the Bible" said "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect"?
Religious man creates a salvation that excludes the God they spit on in the first place. "Many" who come in Christ's Name, preach that men can come to the Savior apart from, in spite of, or in rebellion against His Father? And yet the One Savior tells us the exact opposite, "Seek ye first the Kingdom of "God", and "HIS" Righteousness".
It is precisely because of these worldly religious philosophies, and the men who promote them, that I have taken Heed that they don't convince me of following these popular Philosophies, traditions of men, and Beggarly elements of this world, they promote from one manmade shrine of worship to another.
I also hope that other men will listen to this Priest, and the Teachers HIS Father sent, that they might take heed as well.
I hope this helps.
Good read, thank you for writing it up.
Wrangler
Active Member
Proving again that Jesus is not God. It is God, who alone is the Father, who is above all - including, be definition above Jesus.
Wrangler
Active Member
Very well said!
Wrangler
Active Member
This is what trinitarians cannot recognize; they lost the reference. By definition, a mediator cannot be on either side for which he advocates between.
Being our ONLY mediator to God, Jesus cannot be God; for if he were God, we would lose our ONLY advocate for God. Here, trinitarians seek to invoke dualism, assert Jesus is the middle (between us) and the end that is not between us.
Dizerner
Active Member
Wrangler
Active Member
Totally wrong. Pocohontas is your standard of what a mediator is? From International Centre for Dispute Resolution Note on Neutrality:
This Code establishes a presumption of neutrality for all arbitrators
What is your authoritative reference that mediators are not neutral but are on both sides? The very idea of being "on both sides" shows who totally lost your epistemological foundation is! It is a contradiction in terms. But then again, that is trinitarianism. So, one can expect doubling down on contradictions indefinitely.
Dizerner
Active Member
Wrangler
Active Member
Your facts are wrong as well as your logic. It is not logical to have contradictory definitions. Middle does not mean at the end.
Johann
Active Member
{Note: "The Father, Who has sent me draw him" - the word 'draw' -- This word was used in the Greek for drawing a sword out of a scabbard, for a fisherman drawing a net through the water. It was also used for a public speaker drawing or attracting a crowd by his message or by some other means. Here it means to be attracted to, to be drawn to something. The word as used here refers to positive volition at the point of God-consciousness. The crowd standing before Jesus Christ went on negative signals. Why is He putting the word 'unless' in here? It is clear in the Greek but not clear in the English. Because it actually describes positive volition. Whom does the Father draw? The Father draws those who go on positive signals at the point of God-consciousness. And how does He draw them, attract them? He attracts them with the gospel. At the point of God-consciousness when a person goes on positive volition God is therefore responsible to provide gospel information for that person - John 7:17; Acts 17:27; Jeremiah 29:13. God will provide positive signals with the gospel. In other words, everyone has a chance. God gives everyone a fair shake. He stays in contact with the unbeliever all of their life. He knew all about each one of us from eternity past, at the point of our birth, at God-conscientiousness, at gospel hearing, and at the Last Judgment.}
