An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

[DavidTree]

Oh boy. Here I am, an untrained self identifying mountaineer about to go into an avalanche prone terrain and about to say some stuff that will likely get me into trouble. I will speak, then hunker down. Basically, what I'm doing is asking some questions.
When we say 'God', Who are we referring to? The Father, Son, holy Spirit, or all 3? For example, when we say, God became flesh, Who do we mean?
When we speak of the Son of God, what do we mean by that? Metaphor? Literal? We speak of the Son as Creator, but was He a Son then, or later at the incarnation? If later, what was He prior?
If Jesus was not a Son prior to the incarnation, and the trinity as described by the formulas were all coequal coeternal and each one self existent as 3 persons, which one became a Son? How did they decide? And if that was what happened, they merely chose roles to play, then did that not make the entire Father/Son concept a farce?
Before the one part becoming flesh, were they not all Spirit? Did one decide to be holy... Okay, that sounds weird, because obviously they all were, I think I'll quit that line of questioning before the avalanche hits.
If the Son is also God, how did He die? Did He die?
If the unity we speak of between the members of the Godhead is truly as the trinity formulas say, that is indivisible, was there a part of the Son still in heaven while the part on earth died? How were the separate parts of the Son united? Were they? If united, did the one part actually die?
If they all were coeternal, why did God use a Father Son concept to describe their relationships knowing how we would intellectually understand it, one being older than the other. I know, you will all say, such things are in eternity, but in eternity will we not still have a past, present, and future?

Now, all that said, I have a few answers that satisfy me, but I don't have all the answers, and some I'm not 100% sure of, and wondering how many different observations we will get from the above questions.

Time I think to beat a retreat.

My EXACT thoughts - but with answers = to some!

 

[Wilber]

Notice that Philippians 2:7 does not specify what the Son of God “emptied” Himself of.

Well if He emptied himself of his humanity?

That would not make for a very good man. Now would it?

And, that does not mean he emptied Himself of His Deity...
Only by denying Himself of His right to be empowered by Deity for anything that would exceed
the normal power normally associated with being a man.


He walked on water.

Yet, keep in mind.

Peter did as well.

grace and peace ..............

The only reason Peter could walk on the water was because Jesus called him out of the boat. Jesus had that kind of power. He could heal the sick, restore sight to the blind, Even raise the dead.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And Scripture also tells us the natural man cannot understand it.

The Bible alone is not a self-interpreter, we need the Spirit along with it.

Spiritual men wrote letters and words that appeal to natural understanding. We can read and reason. All men can.

 

[praise_yeshua]

i like the faith you applied to logic

Appeal to "faith" absent logic is not an argument. It is nothing more than a means to get others to be quiet and accept what you say.

If you don't know, then you don't know and that is the end of the argument.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It would be good to meditate on the difference between logical and temporal order/priority.

God is outside of time—and that will protect you from quite a few heresies out there.

False claim without any evidence whatsoever. There is no such thing as "outside time". Prove it.

It is amazing how some people appeal to not knowing something as evidence and then insist they know something that is unproven.

 

[DavidTree]

Appeal to "faith" absent logic is not an argument. It is nothing more than a means to get others to be quiet and accept what you say.

If you don't know, then you don't know and that is the end of the argument.

If you look closer, you will see that i never left Faith in a vacuum.

What i did express is that without 'faith' it is impossible to 'know' God.

There is a Kingdom of difference between acknowledgement of a God/Creator from 'knowing' the only True God/Creator/Savior.

Thank You for Your support

 

[DavidTree]

False claim without any evidence whatsoever. There is no such thing as "outside time". Prove it.

It is amazing how some people appeal to not knowing something as evidence and then insist they know something that is unproven.

Did you see the poem on post #155 ?

 

[DavidTree]

False claim without any evidence whatsoever. There is no such thing as "outside time". Prove it.

It is amazing how some people appeal to not knowing something as evidence and then insist they know something that is unproven.

P.S. = i am a proponent of logic = when it is submitted unto Truth it comes 'Alive'

 

[praise_yeshua]

If you look closer, you will see that i never left Faith in a vacuum.

What i did express is that without 'faith' it is impossible to 'know' God.

There is a Kingdom of difference between acknowledgement of a God/Creator from 'knowing' the only True God/Creator/Savior.

Thank You for Your support

Can others read the Scriptures and learn of God?

 

[DavidTree]

Can others read the Scriptures and learn of God?

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did you see the poem on post #155 ?

I disagree.

Have you relied upon your understanding of English know God? How did faith help you with understanding English?

What people fail to realize is that God has said many many things about Himself. People just don't believe what they've been told. People are too lazy. People will not put forth the effort to seek God.

Those that seek find.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26And He has made from one [j]blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’ 29Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. 30Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

I preached from those verse decades ago. Those are some of verse I READ that required me to change my theology. All the faith in the world didn't help me till I READ THOSE WORDS and took them for exactly what they say.

Sometimes, an appeal to faith is nothing more than a means to stop others from seeking.

 

[DavidTree]

I preached from those verse decades ago. Those are some of verse I READ that required me to change my theology. All the faith in the world didn't help me till I READ THOSE WORDS and took them for exactly what they say.

Sometimes, an appeal to faith is nothing more than a means to stop others from seeking.

Please share= before and after =

Those are some of verse I READ that required me to change my theology

 

[praise_yeshua]

P.S. = i am a proponent of logic = when it is submitted unto Truth it comes 'Alive'

So you're appealing to specific types of logic?

Simple logic is need. The logic of "no contradictions" is essential. Other than this, there are few reason to believe the line.... "just accept what I say".....

 

[praise_yeshua]

Please share= before and after =

I can but I'd rather deal with the claim that "faith" has some form of "special revelation".

 

[DavidTree]

So you're appealing to specific types of logic?

Simple logic is need. The logic of "no contradictions" is essential. Other than this, there are few reason to believe the line.... "just accept what I say".....

"just accept what i say" is the KEY to LIFE = when the Person saying it is directing, in love-n-truth, to the other person

 

[DavidTree]

I can but I'd rather deal with the claim that "faith" has some form of "special revelation".

I can but I'd rather deal with the claim that "faith" has some form of "special revelation".

Faith in God's Word indeed carries with it "special AND privileged revelation"

 

[Dizerner]

Prove it.

Prove I need to prove it.

It seems you deny revelation from God... a foundation of unbelief.

 

[GeneZ]

The only reason Peter could walk on the water was because Jesus called him out of the boat. Jesus had that kind of power. He could heal the sick, restore sight to the blind, Even raise the dead.

The reason Jesus (walking as a man) could walk on water was because of all the power being supplied to him by the Spirit.
Just like Peter who walked on water like Jesus did, but failed at one point because he was weak in "faith."

There was a time when Peter walked by people having only his shadow touching them? They were healed. (Acts 5)
Paul also was used of God to be the catalyst for many miracle healings in Acts 19.

What Jesus did "as a perfect man" was not being God. But being as a man that God held back no limits for grace
because Jesus pleased the Father completely.

After the atonement Jesus returned to Heaven and resumed his rightful function to be functioning as God,
but only after he completed on earth what was needed for us to have our faith,by first PROVING IT WOULD WORK FOR MEN!
He proved it would work for men because He pioneered our faith and had it tested while being as a man!

Its not complex as it seems. It only requires gaining more knowledge to be able to connect the dots.
That's why its imperative to not quit searching till you find and keep a good pastor teacher... who is a gift from God.

Becoming ones own teacher while not having the gift of pastor teacher is a trap from the Devil for delusion and failure.....

In Christ ....

 

[praise_yeshua]

"just accept what i say" is the KEY to LIFE = when the Person saying it is directing, in love-n-truth, to the other person

God doesn't require such. God provides explanation. Have you found any explanations in Scripture. I have.

Again. I insist that you answer my question concerning English.

Do you require understanding of English to know God? How did faith help you with such?