An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

[DavidTree]

The other poster said: "God is not looking for us to "act" a certain way to please Him."

You responded with a parable of how someone acted by doing a good deed.

The verse I quoted shows God is looking for those in the Spirit and truth for that is how He wants to be worshiped now not simply through doing good deeds.

I don't think we are talking about different things. I think our difference lies in how we reach the conclusion of what truly constitutes a "good deed", The Law or Grace?

Well placed.

 

[DavidTree]

That's the scripture that came to my mind also.

Off topic but this is today's poem.

EYE C 24
down on the floor
no crowns remain on their heads
the LORD raised them from their death beds

Holy! Holy! Holy! they say in Eternity
3 Times, mind you now
Seems to me that there may be a Trinity

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
3 men who knew how to Look UP
The LORD said My Name will be THREE
Then JESUS showed up to SAVE me
Father Son Holy Spirit
3 = it MUST BE

 

[Wilber]

The other poster said: "God is not looking for us to "act" a certain way to please Him."

You responded with a parable of how someone acted by doing a good deed.

The verse I quoted shows God is looking for those in the Spirit and truth for that is how He wants to be worshiped now not simply through doing good deeds.

I don't think we are talking about different things. I think our difference lies in how we reach the conclusion of what truly constitutes a "good deed", The Law or Grace?

Oh okay now I got you. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I still think it does please God when we treat others with loving kindness.

 

[Wilber]

Off topic but this is today's poem.

EYE C 24
down on the floor
no crowns remain on their heads
the LORD raised them from their death beds

Holy! Holy! Holy! they say in Eternity
3 Times, mind you now
Seems to me that there may be a Trinity

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
3 men who knew how to Look UP
The LORD said My Name will be THREE
Then JESUS showed up to SAVE me
Father Son Holy Spirit
3 = it MUST BE

The 3 of them together is what saved me. And now I will live for eternity In the presence of all 3.

 

[DavidTree]

The 3 of them together is what saved me. And now I will live for eternity In the presence of all 3.

The 24 are the Elders of Revelation ch5

 

[sawdust]

Oh okay now I got you. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I still think it does please God when we treat others with loving kindness.

Amen. 1 Corinthians 13. As long as we are both clear it is by grace and the filling of the Spirit that produces the fruit that enables the good deeds to be truly good.

 

[sawdust]

Romans 7:7–25 unpacks verse 5, and Romans 8:1–17 unpacks verse 6. In verses 7–25 we see how sin via the law brings death to those in the flesh, and in Romans 8:1–17 we see how the Spirit grants life to those who belong to Jesus Christ. Romans 7:5–6 forecasts what Paul is about to say in remarkably clear terms. The Holy Spirit is never mentioned in Romans 7:7–25. But Paul refers to the Spirit 15 times in Romans 8:1–17, suggesting that the person described in Romans 7:7–25 is one who doesn’t have the Spirit in his life. The essence of what it means to be a Christian is to be indwelt with the Spirit (Rom. 8:9). We see in both Romans 7:14 and 7:18 that the one described is of the “flesh,” one who is still in the old Adam, one who is unregenerate.

The total defeat described in Romans 7 contradicts how Paul describes Christian experience in Romans 6 and 8. Paul proclaims in Romans 6 that we’re no longer slaves to sin (6:6), that we’re free from the sin that enslaved us when we were unbelievers (Rom. 6:16–19).

Romans 7- Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3 So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.
4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

A number of objections surface against what I’ve said. Let’s look at two of them briefly. First, how does a reference to unbelievers fit with Romans 7:23 (“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being”)? Doesn’t such delight and longing for God’s law show that a believer is in view? Not necessarily. Many pious Jews loved God’s law and yet didn’t know God. Paul himself testifies that the Jews have a “zeal for God,” though they lacked knowledge (Rom. 10:2). There can be zeal and delight in the law (witness the Pharisees) when one isn’t truly saved.
Second, Paul shifts from past-tense verbs in Romans 7:7–11 to present-tense verbs in verses 14–25. Doesn’t that prove Christians are in view? Not necessarily. Scholars recognize that present tense doesn’t necessarily designate present time. The temporal nature of an action must be discerned from context, since present-tense verbs, even in the indicative, may be used with reference to the past or even the future.

The tense of the verb doesn’t emphasize time in Romans 7:7–25. Rather, the use of the present tense here fits with the state or condition of the person. Paul is emphasizing one’s captivity, subjugation, and impotence under the law. His use of the present tense doesn’t denote past time but highlights in a vivid way the slavery of life under the law.

If I’m right in the way I interpret this passage, the difference between me and those who see this as Christian experience isn’t great. After all, we both agree that believers fall short in numerous ways and that we struggle daily with sin. The reason we differ is that I see Romans 7:13–25 as describing total defeat, and that isn’t our story as Christians since the Holy Spirit also empowers us to live in a new way. schreiner

hope this helps !!!

The mind set on the flesh is hostile to God. No argument with me there.

Gee, I wonder what could be in the flesh that the mind must fixate on to become hostile and led astray?

 

[GeneZ]

Civic has his own Bible.

It reads "in civic's flesh dwells every good thing."

Can't argue with the civic version.

If they want to believe that?

If that is where they are at at this time in their understanding, and refuse to budge?
Just let them believe that.

But, we should just show them what they are failing to see.
Then... after doing that?
At that point you are not responsible before the Lord to make them see.

In the mean while.. God lets each one of us to reap what we sow if we refuse correction.

And, if we accept correction... ?
Then we will reap what He has sown for us in eternity past.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed
us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he
chose/elected us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and
blameless in his sight." Eph 1:3-4​

{Note: 'Every spiritual blessing' refers to the things God provided believers at the point of salvation.
And, 'having provided blessings' is an aorist participle. The action of the aorist participle precedes the action
of the main verb. The main verb is in the next verse 'has elected'. This means 'the blessings' preceded
His election of YOU! And, both occurred billions of years before YOU existed!}


grace and peace ...................

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”

All the time.
Every time.

Never deal with people who require different treatment when need be....

 

[civic]

If they want to believe that?

If that is where they are at at this time in their understanding, and refuse to budge?
Just let them believe that.

But, we should just show them what they are failing to see.
Then... after doing that?
At that point you are not responsible before the Lord to make them see.

In the mean while.. God lets each one of us to reap what we sow if we refuse correction.

And, if we accept correction... ?
Then we will reap what He has sown for us in eternity past.

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed ​

us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he ​

chose/elected us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and​

blameless in his sight." Eph 1:3-4​

{Note: 'Every spiritual blessing' refers to the things God provided believers at the point of salvation.
And, 'having provided blessings' is an aorist participle. The action of the aorist participle precedes the action
of the main verb. The main verb is in the next verse 'has elected'. This means 'the blessings' preceded
His election of YOU! And, both occurred billions of years before YOU existed!}


grace and peace ...................

You cannot make me see anything and neither can I make you or anyone else see anything. God can make you see things, not me. You can either accept the scriptures I post as truth or reject them. That is your choice.

Newsflash- its not your job to make me see anything. And its not my job to make you see.

1- the god of this world blinds people to the truth
2- Jesus can blind you to the truth
3- The Holy Spirit can convict you of the truth
4- sin can blind you to the truth.

There are many reasons why a person can have the truth hidden from them.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Brakelite]

Begotten applies to "when" exactly? Can you place share your conclusion as to when?

Before creation.

 

[Brakelite]

In what manner could the Son be "begotten' when it states all things ever been created were created through Him?

In other words? He would have to pre-exist Himself if the Soul of the Son were created.... !
Because, to create it? he would have to exist at its creation!

Not so for the Son.... Who was begotten before time ever was created.

Eternally Begotten.

The more and better we understand the meaning of the eternal essence of God?
The more easily it can be explained how Jesus' Soul was begotten eternally .... not, "created."

​

"Through him all things were made; without him nothing ​

was made that has been made." John 1:3​

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, ​

visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ​

all things have been created through him and for him." Colossians 1:16​

For those who claim that God created the soul of Jesus at the point of the Incarnation?
He would have needed to exist as Jesus, before He could be created to be Jesus.

The Soul of Jesus (not his human body) was eternally existing in the essence of God.
Philippians 2:6

​

Christ himself was like God in everything. He was equal with God. ​

But he did not think that being equal with God was something to ​

be held on to."​

God always knew some would understand...... And, others not.

That is why He has truth taught before all, knowing that not all would have
made the right choices to be made able to understand....

Cheers! To the power of God's Grace!


..............

Ummm, apart from the eternally begotten part, you are simply repeating what I've been saying all along. You present your argument regarding Christ being begotten before creation in such a manner as to suggest you are the only one around here who teaches it. Do you not read others' posts?

 

[Wilber]

All the time.
Every time.

Never deal with people who require different treatment when need be....

I hear you, That's why I stay away from people that are bipolar have obsessive compulsive disorder, Schizophrenic or have homicidal tendencies.

 

[Diserner]

Jesus loved messed up people and did not shun them.

And thank God I was one.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Who made you the arbitrator of truth? I am speaking of what I know to be true to the best of my understanding through the teaching of the word. Judge your own words before you judge others lest you find them turning back upon you and deceiving yourself.

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Of course you're not doing my thinking for me. You keep telling me what I mean when I keep telling you that is not what I mean at all. It simply doesn't get through to you because you think you are right and I am wrong.

Enough. I'm done with you.

Have a nice Day.

I can disagree with you. That doesn't make me the "arbitrator of truth". I told you why.

Who made you the "arbitrator of truth"???? Debate 101 is not making arguments that can equally apply to anyone in the debate.

So why do you need to renew your mind? If you have the mind of Christ yet.... have to renew your mind..... Then what does that tell us?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Before creation.

Our creation?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Amen. 1 Corinthians 13. As long as we are both clear it is by grace and the filling of the Spirit that produces the fruit that enables the good deeds to be truly good.

Is anyone truly proficient in this?

I believe it is abundantly clear in the lives of all men that we are extraordinarily inconsistent.

 

[synergy]

Ummm, apart from the eternally begotten part, you are simply repeating what I've been saying all along. You present your argument regarding Christ being begotten before creation in such a manner as to suggest you are the only one around here who teaches it. Do you not read others' posts?

The main thing that sets @GeneZ apart is that he believes that the Preincarnate Word always had a Divine soul as opposed to receiving a human soul at his Incarnation. That heresy is called Neo-Apollinarianism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I hear you, That's why I stay away from people that are bipolar have obsessive compulsive disorder, Schizophrenic or have homicidal tendencies.

I believe most everyone has issues with being "bipolar" at times in their lives. "Bipolar" is extreme frustration in our experience.

 

[civic]

The main thing that sets @GeneZ apart is that he believes that the Preincarnate Word always had a Divine soul as opposed to receiving a human soul at his Incarnation. That heresy is called Neo-Apollinarianism.

I think it is a belief in a pre existing human soul. Thats he had 2 pre existing natures prior to becoming human. Maybe I'm wrong but hopefully @GeneZ will tell us if Jesus prior to becoming man had a human soul.