praise_yeshua
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Which establishes Eternal Sonship.
An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
Which establishes Eternal Sonship.
DavidTree
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Keep in mind that we only disgussed Part 1 which was verses 1 thru 6a
We did not go further in looking at the rest of the scriptures that continue on this subject.
DavidTree
Well-known member
i agree = Christ purchased with His Blood and Restored Eternal Sonship for us with the FATHER by His obedience as a "Son".
Hebrews 3:4-6
For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
1 John 3:1-3
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Hebrews 3:4-6
For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
1 John 3:1-3
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Just to be aware. We need to be careful...
It was an ancient Hebrew customary way of speaking...... And...
Wealthy Roman fathers had a similar process when it came time for them to 'adopt' their own sons....
If the Roman son grew up not pleasing his wealthy father, when the son came of age that son would not
be adopted by the father having no right to the inheritance....
If the son pleased the father? In ceremony he was adopted, and the father would then declare "today you are my son"
even though he was his biological son.
But, if the wealthy man's son was not accepted? Then the wealthy man would seek out for a young man of good
character to replace the bad son, and be the one to be made the head of the estate...
In such a sense of meaning...
When its says we have been 'adopted as sons' it means we have come into a full inheritance with Jesus.
For we are co-heirs with Christ if we share in his sufferings..
“Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ,
if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.” Romans 8:17
In the ancient sense of the meaning of 'adoption' we have been adopted as sons if we mature in Christ. Mature by
enduring the sufferings that must come to someone seeking to continuously grow in grace and knowledge of Christ
until physical death...
Part of these sufferings is receiving resistance from believers who fear to grow as to become a threat to those whom
the Lord is now making into his footstool.
grace and peace ..........
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GeneZ
Well-known member
She handed him the fruit and he knew why he was to eat it....
The Hebrew says he ate it quite vigorously.
Why? He wanted to be as wise as the Lord!
Hard to figure out. And, then its not. We need the facts first.
Every word does come from the mouth of God. But...
English translations quite often turns it into junk food.
That is why God has given us a few teachers who will reveal *with accuracy* what we need to know..
If we truly want to know, and its not become some sort of intellectual curiosity as so many fall prey to.
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach
will be judged with greater strictness. " James 3:1
Only a few will be given to us that are worthy to bring us to full maturity in Christ. In contrast to the few good teachers?
A great many teachers will be constantly "running for office" wishing to win the approval of the people,
and will appeal to them by telling them the Word in a manner in which they desire it be told to them.
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit
their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what
their itching ears want to hear." 2 Timothy 4:3
The few good teachers will be not liked by the majority. In turn, these few teachers will experience the sufferings
that Christ faced. And, there will always be some kooks will jump in and presume that they are in the same position
as well, adding to the confusion....
Those who are truly being led of the Spirit will be vindicated by God, not man.
In Christ.... grace and peace
DavidTree
Well-known member
Absolutely = and thus we see this whenever the Brethren refuse to look at scripture and rather just regurgitate what 'status quo' bullies insist on.
If you have been following the discussion that began with Post 379 you will see that no one was willing to LOOK at ALL of the scriptures
that give us the full understanding of what took place in Genesis ch3.
If you only go as far as 3:1-6 and then bail, it means that :
a.) respect of persons leads to disrespect of persons which is what the LORD and the Apostles had to battle
b.) know it all ism - don't tell me, i'll tell you
c.) religion rules and the Holy Spirit must follow
Those teachers who will be judged more severely are those who scoff at the Commandment = Proverbs 30:5-6
Of which i have found only a very small handful who apply this commandment to their hearts.
God told Moses TWO IMPORTANT MUST HAVES when judging a matter = Deut 1:17
A.) Do not show partiality in judging; hear both small and great alike.
B.) You shall not fear man,(intimidation from respect of persons)
A + B = C
C= "for the judgment is God’s."
Once you vacate either A or B you fail to reach C
Johann
Well-known member
Harsh words-who is the unfortunate person/s in fire?
6 and~she~will~SEE(V) (וַתֵּרֶא / wa'tey're) the~WOMAN (הָאִשָּׁה / ha'i'shah) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) the~TREE (הָעֵץ / ha'eyts) to~NOURISHMENT (לְמַאֲכָל / lê'ma'a'khal) and~GIVEN.THAT (וְכִי / wê'khi) YEARNING (תַאֲוָה / ta'a'wah) HE (הוּא / hu) to~the~EYE~s2 (לָעֵינַיִם / la'ey'na'yim) and~be~CRAVE(V)~ing(ms) (וְנֶחְמָד / wê'nehh'mad) the~TREE (הָעֵץ / ha'eyts) to~>~make~CALCULATE(V) (לְהַשְׂכִּיל / lê'has'kil) and~she~will~TAKE(V) (וַתִּקַּח / wa'ti'qahh) from~PRODUCE~him (מִפִּרְיוֹ / mi'pir'yo) and~she~will~EAT(V) (וַתֹּאכַל / wa'to'khal) and~she~will~GIVE(V) (וַתִּתֵּן / wa'ti'teyn) ALSO (גַּם / gam) to~MAN~her (לְאִישָׁהּ / lê'i'shah) WITH~her (עִמָּהּ / i'mah) and~he~will~EAT(V) (וַיֹּאכַל / wai'yo'khal)
RMT: and the woman saw that the function of the tree is for nourishment and that he is a yearning to the eyes, and the tree is a craving for making calculations, and she took from his produce and she ate, and she gave also to her man with her, and he ate,--
WITH: (masc.: עים / im) (עים / im) Through the idea of being together in a group. Alternate Translations: among, by; away (when prefixed with "from~"). Strong's: #5868, #5973
with her, ‘im·māhוַיֹּאכַֽל׃
Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms (BSB Morphology)
Conjunctive waw
+ Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Lemma: אָכַל
Word: וַיֹּאכַֽל׃
Transliteration: way·yō·ḵal
English: and he ate.
Do you want to contest this?
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DavidTree
Well-known member
Eve sinning was never the issue of discussion.
Adam sinning was never the issue of discussion.
Adam and Eve sinned = CHECK
Topic: Was Adam standing next to Eve when the Serpent deceived Eve?
Topic: What do the scriptures declare?
Topic: ALL the scriptures - no cherry picking(pun)
Johann
Well-known member
Already answered-Adam was WITH Eve-according to Scriptures-
Conj-w+V-Qal-ConsecImperf-3ms (BSB Morphology)
Conjunctive waw
+ Verb - Qal - Consecutive imperfect - third person masculine singular
Lemma: אָכַל
Word: וַיֹּאכַֽל׃
Transliteration: way·yō·ḵal
English: and he ate.
“The woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a pleasure to the eyes, and to be desired to make one wise (הַשְׂכִּיל signifies to gain or show discernment or insight); and she took of its fruit and ate, and gave to her husband by her (who was present), and he did eat.”
and gave also to her husband with her; that he might eat as well as she, and partake of the same benefits and advantages she hoped to reap from hence; for no doubt it was of good will, and not ill will, that she gave it to him; and when she offered it to him, it is highly probable she made use of arguments with him, and pressed him hard to it, telling him what delicious food it was, as well as how useful it would be to him and her. The Jews infer from hence, that Adam was with her all the while, and heard the discourse between the serpent and her, yet did not interpose nor dissuade his wife from eating the fruit, and being prevailed upon by the arguments used; or however through a strong affection for his wife, that she might not die alone, he did as she had done:
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6 and~she~will~SEE(V) (וַתֵּרֶא / wa'tey're) the~WOMAN (הָאִשָּׁה / ha'i'shah) GIVEN.THAT (כִּי / ki) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) the~TREE (הָעֵץ / ha'eyts) to~NOURISHMENT (לְמַאֲכָל / lê'ma'a'khal) and~GIVEN.THAT (וְכִי / wê'khi) YEARNING (תַאֲוָה / ta'a'wah) HE (הוּא / hu) to~the~EYE~s2 (לָעֵינַיִם / la'ey'na'yim) and~be~CRAVE(V)~ing(ms) (וְנֶחְמָד / wê'nehh'mad) the~TREE (הָעֵץ / ha'eyts) to~>~make~CALCULATE(V) (לְהַשְׂכִּיל / lê'has'kil) and~she~will~TAKE(V) (וַתִּקַּח / wa'ti'qahh) from~PRODUCE~him (מִפִּרְיוֹ / mi'pir'yo) and~she~will~EAT(V) (וַתֹּאכַל / wa'to'khal) and~she~will~GIVE(V) (וַתִּתֵּן / wa'ti'teyn) ALSO (גַּם / gam) to~MAN~her (לְאִישָׁהּ / lê'i'shah) WITH~her (עִמָּהּ / i'mah) and~he~will~EAT(V) (וַיֹּאכַל / wai'yo'khal)
RMT: and the woman saw that the function of the tree is for nourishment and that he is a yearning to the eyes, and the tree is a craving for making calculations, and she took from his produce and she ate, and she gave also to her man with her, and he ate,
I'm sure you know the Qal and Imperfect-yes?
Shalom.
J.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Question......
Genesis 3:2-3 says?
Why did Eve add to the Word given by the Lord?
.......... You shall not touch nor eat of the tree?
God never forbade 'touching.'
That is an example of the type of wordings to be found in various Scriptures that demand thinking and insight,
not simple memorization and recall....
grace and peace ..............
Genesis 3:2-3 says?
And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall
not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
Why did Eve add to the Word given by the Lord?
.......... You shall not touch nor eat of the tree?
God never forbade 'touching.'
And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat
from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:16-17
That is an example of the type of wordings to be found in various Scriptures that demand thinking and insight,
not simple memorization and recall....
Why did she say "not to touch?"
"And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."
Philippians 1:9
grace and peace ..............
DavidTree
Well-known member
Scripture does not say that Adam was with Eve when the Serpent deceived her.
God verified this as does the Apostle Paul.
The scripture only states Adam was with her when she gave him the forbidden fruit.
Look again at verses 1 thru 6, word by word, and then LISTEN to the LORD'S words when HE addresses all three.
Like i said in Post #446, no one went the MILE of SEEKING ALL scripture on the issue.
@Johann, as a competitive athlete, you KNOW the importance of training and going the distance!
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Johann
Well-known member
GeneZ
Well-known member
Adam simply took the bitten fruit and ate.
But? Why did he did not question her?
The fact that he was silent and readily took to eat should tell us something.
That Adam knew why he took and ate from the same fruit she had begun eating from.....
To do so in that manner? Adam had to know something.
If not? Adam would have asked her why she had taken and ate.
Adam would have asked if he had not already heard for himself the lie of Satan which they both followed.
Being too afraid is not the same thing as being cautious...
There comes a point when you must move forward in battle not sure of the outcome, but sure of having to move forward.
In Christ ................
DavidTree
Well-known member
Instead of human conjecture(which has it's place), how about 1st going to our FATHERS words on the matter?
So far, no one has acknowledged and accepted what the LORD said.
Once again, we only see a continual human explanation that "Adam was next to Eve" when she was deceived but when compared to the scriptures
that account is rebuffed by the LORD and the Apostle Paul.
Johann
Well-known member
Show me Scripture references in the 13 Pauline epistles brother.
Like you, I don't want to pontificate or philosophize with human intellectualism.
Thanks.
J.
Wrangler
Well-known member
Can’t answer a simple question about the foundation of your false doctrine.
DavidTree
Well-known member
As i post the scripture(s) of the Apostle Paul AND of the LORD Himself speaking, if it does not hit you immediately, let it digest.
There are 3 witnesses to Adam not being present
1.) Genesis 3: 1-6 = Only the Serpent and Eve are engaged and mentioned. Adam only comes into view when Eve brings him the fruit.
2.) Apostle Paul understood this and wrote: 1 Timothy 2:12-14
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
3.) the LORD confirms that Adam was not part of the conversation between the Serpent/Satan and Eve
Genesis 3:9-17
Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”
And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So the Lord God said to the serpent:
“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”
To the woman He said:
“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
Then to Adam the Lord said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
NOTICE the CORRECT ORDER of EVENTS as given by the LORD Himself
1st - Serpent
2nd - the woman
3rd - to Adam
NOTICE that the LORD does not mention the woman by name but HE does mention Adam by name!!!
This is the TRUTH that God laid as a Foundation for the rest of scripture all the way to Revelation.
God never accused Adam of "passing the buck" which is a flasehood that christiandom promotes
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Johann
Well-known member
DavidTree
Well-known member
DavidTree
Well-known member
the LORD has many Titles = here are some
Isaiah 9:6
Wonderful Counselor (we all need His Counsel)
Might God
Everlasting Father
Prince of Peace
Isaiah 30:15
the Holy One of Israel
Exodus 15:26
the Lord who Heals
Isaiah 1:24 - YAHWEH-SABAOTH
"The Lord of Hosts"
Psalm 23:1 - the LORD is our Shepherd
John 10:11 - “I am the Good Shepherd
1 Peter 5:4 - And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.
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