An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian

He was not! He made it very clear who was responsible! The woman AND God. He said the woman she's responsible for she gave it to me and Lord you had a part to play in this too for you gave me her. I was just a poor innocent bystander who was taken advantage of. :)

“The woman whom You gave me" Gen 3:12
Do we know, for a fact, that Adam was standing next to Eve when the Serpent beguiled her???

Any scriptural reference to this???
 
If the text makes no mention of him coming or going, the text would be leaving out crucial information.
The text is CLEAR

Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”


2And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”


4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.
 
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What desperation! My reference to Jesus having a body was not relative to Theophany but an actual human body of flesh - which God does not have. Can you point to one verse that says God is not Spirit but a man with flesh?

Define Theophany without a body.....

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
 
yea i agree adam isn't described as on the other side of the garden but right there
No it does not.

Read again - Adam is NEVER mentioned in the dialogue between the Serpent and Eve.

1Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”


2And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”


4Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.

Now search the scriptures and SEE if you can find even one reference to Adam being next to Eve when the Serpent interacted with her.
 
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Do we know, for a fact, that Adam was standing next to Eve when the Serpent beguiled her???

Any scriptural reference to this???
Well we do see what we see below,

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3: 6

Be nice to know what words she said to him. Maybe he fell for some dumb thing like you see on facebook. If you're my friend you will share whatever I put down! I'd like to say to people that do that (although I haven't) If you're my friend you would not be trying to put me under a spirit of compulsion to do somelthing I don't want. Sounds like Samson and Delilah. If you love me you will share your secret.
 
Well we do see what we see below,

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Gen 3: 6

Be nice to know what words she said to him. Maybe he fell for some dumb thing like you see on facebook. If you're my friend you will share whatever I put down! I'd like to say to people that do that (although I haven't) If you're my friend you would not be trying to put me under a spirit of compulsion to do somelthing I don't want. Sounds like Samson and Delilah. If you love me you will share your secret.
BINGO = only EVE is present when she offered Adam the fruit

Please review Post #385
 
Well David I don't know. There's people here other posters right now that aren't responding to these posts. Doesn't mean they're not here.

Further evidence - from Scripture - that indicates Adam was not present at the time the serpent deceived Eve.

9Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”


10So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.”


11And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”


12Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”


13And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”


14So the Lord God said to the serpent:
 
Don't think you can prove that from the text but tell me....why is it important for you to want it to be that way?
It is ULTRA IMPORTANT that we read the scriptures the Way that the Holy Spirit directed.

It is of the HIGHEST LEVEL of OBEDIENCE to not change a single word = not even a "jot or tittle" = and the Garden account PROVES this.

17“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

ALL false doctrines begin the SAME way as in the Garden.

God knowing this Paramount Truth instructs us - Deuteronomy 4:1-2 , Proverbs 30:5-6 and Revelation 22:18
 
It’s not complicated. Jesus is not God. His title is Anointed. Past tense, passive voice, meaning action was done to Jesus.

Who Anointed Jesus? God, in his unitarian nature.

His is why Jesus has another title, son of God. By definition, sons are created beings - not the creator.

Wrangler,

The Jeep Wrangler?
It is known for off-roading.....

And, true to the name?
What you express here and other Christian forums?

Tells us that you are truly off the road.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction,
and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a
few find it."


Matthew 7:13-14
 
The Jeep Wrangler?
It is known for off-roading.....

And, true to the name.
What you are expressing here and other Christian forums?

Tells us that you are truly off the road.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction,
and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a
few find it."


Matthew 7:13-14
@Wrangler

GeneZ shared with you an excellent concept which i was going to share as well = 'What's in a name?'

Your choice of using 'Wrangler' carries with it a DESCRIPTION and/or DEFINITION

SAME with God using the Name YESHUA which means SALVATION = God our SAVIOR

SAME with God using the Name "WORD" = "No one comes to the FATHER except thru ME"

SAME with God using the Words "WAY" "TRUTH" "LIFE" to define exactly Who He is and for us to KNOW whom we are to Obey & Love.
 
elmer_fudd.jpg


....Its weely "Wangler! "
 
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Yet, sense 1 DOES. Sons are created beings. You have to rely on figurative use of language to cling to something, e.g, Sons of Thunder. Daughters of the Revolution, etc.
@Wrangler says: "You have to rely on figurative use of language to cling to something, e.g, Sons of Thunder. Daughters of the Revolution, etc."

i AGREE 100% with you Wrangler

Please review Post #394 by which i AGREE with you analysis here.
 
Could you be a little more specific please.
I'll give you one....

The question was.... Sure He had that power at His disposal. But did He use it?

Jesus demonstrated his restraint to act with the power of being God as seen in Matthew 4:3-4.


The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from
the mouth of God.’”


Jesus remain being as the perfect "man of God," though Satan admitted that He knew Jesus was really God,
wanting Jesus to disqualify himself as a man, to be able to take our place on the Cross by returning to being as God.

it can be explained....

grace and peace ................
 
@Wrangler says: "You have to rely on figurative use of language to cling to something, e.g, Sons of Thunder. Daughters of the Revolution, etc."

i AGREE 100% with you Wrangler

Please review Post #394 by which i AGREE with you analysis here.
OK. Given your reliance on figurative language, it is disingenuous to then claim literal truth.
 
OK. Given your reliance on figurative language, it is disingenuous to then claim literal truth.

LORD Jesus Christ says: "I am the Way the Truth and the Life"

The FATHER says: "This is My beloved Son. HEAR HIM"

Now it came to pass, about eight days after these sayings, that He took Peter, John, and James and went up on the mountain to pray.
As JESUS prayed, the appearance of His face was altered, and His robe became white and glistening.
And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of His Exodus which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
But Peter and those with him were heavy with sleep; and when they were fully awake, they saw His glory and the two men who stood with Him.
Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.

While he was saying this, a cloud came and overshadowed them; and they were fearful as they entered the cloud.
And a Voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son. Hear Him!”
When the voice had ceased, Jesus was found alone. But they kept quiet, and told no one in those days any of the things they had seen.

Should you not obey the FATHER who commands us to believe in the LORD Jesus Christ and ALL that HE spoke and commanded.
 
Christ, the True Son of God.
THE PREEMINENT JESUS
A TRUTH OF POSITION
“[Jesus] is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn
from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
- Col 1:18
1. Position vs. Nature of God
a. The nature/character of God is never changing - Heb 13:8, Mal 3:6, James 1:17
b. God is great and greatly to be praised – Psalm 96:4
c. He is one God – Mark 12:32, Eph 4:6, 1 Tim 2:5
d. Yet something did change, the Word was made flesh – John 1:14
e. Jesus had the form of God and man – Phil 2:6-8
f. God does not die, but man does – Acts 20:28
g. Who had the power of resurrection? – John 10:17, 1 Thess 1:10, Rom 8:11
2. Positional Truth
a. Position def.~ a status or standing, place occupied, a post of employment
b. A position is not all encompassing; it is one sided ~ your job is one part of you
c. Position gives status – like a judge declares citizenship, or criminal status
i. Our position in Christ (in grace: not location) – Romans 5:2
ii. We are on Earth, but seated in heavenly places – Eph 2:6
iii. Our old man is crucified, yet we must reckon it dead – Rom 6:6, 11
iv. We wrong but we are made righteous in Christ – Rom 7:21 & Rom 5:1
d. Position has characteristics/responsibilities:
i. First and second Adam – 1 Cor 15:45-49
ii. We walk in righteousness - Eph 5:8, 1 Cor 6:11, 6:20, Romans 6:18
e. Position describes authority – Christ - Eph 5:23, ambassadors - 2 Cor 5:20
i. Not under law but grace is a positional truth of authority – Rom 6:14
ii. Higher positions are given by higher authority – Col 1:19, John 5:26-27
3. Jesus’ Position
a. “firstborn from the dead” – 1 Cor 15:20-23
b. Jesus begotten at his resurrection - Acts 13:33; Psalm 2:7-9
c. He is God – Col 2:9; He is Man – 1 Tim 2:5
d. He is the King of Israel – Mat 2:2; also their Lamb – John 1:29
e. Head of the Body – Col 1:18; he was made sin – 2 Cor 5:21
f. He is the heir of all things - Hebrews 1:-4
g. He was made lower than the angels (man) - Heb 2:6-9
4. “all things he might have the preeminence”
a. Pre-eminence def.~ Precedence; priority of place; superiority in rank or dignity.
b. All things defined: earth and heaven (universe) – Col 1:20, Eph 1:10
c. He is the head of the corner, the only foundation – Acts 4:11-12; 1 Cor 3:11
d. His preeminent position - Eph 1:20-23
e. Nothing separates us from him; because of his preeminence Rom 8:38, Col 2:10
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What is the nature of Christ’s sonship?
Concerning the eternal Sonship of Christ, Ryrie has this to say:

I agree with Buswell (A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion, pp. 105-12) that generation is not an exegetically based doctrine. The concept it tries to convey, however, is not unscriptural, and certainly the doctrine of sonship is scriptural.

The phrase “eternal generation” is simply an attempt to describe the Father-Son relationship in the Trinity and, by using the word “eternal,” protect it from any idea of inequality or temporality. But whether or not one chooses to use the idea of eternal generation, the personal and eternal and coequal relation of the Father and Son must be affirmed. Least of all should eternal generation be based on Psalm 2:7 (Charles C. Ryrie, Basic Theology, Victor Books, Wheaton, IL, 1987, electronic media).

Psalm 2:7 reads, “I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

The Psalmist’s reference to “My Son” referred to the legitimate Davidic king (2 Sam. 7:14) who one day would reign in the person of Messiah, who, of course, is the Lord Jesus. The words “Today I have begotten You” speak of the day of coronation or the anointing of the King to be fulfilled in the Millennium. But in the New Testament, this is related to Christ’s resurrection (Acts 13:33-34; Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:5; 5:5).

Many theologians or Bible students see Acts 13:33 to refer to Christ’s exaltation via the resurrection because it clearly validated Jesus’ claims and marked Him out as the Son of God as Paul demonstrates in Romans 1:4.

Becoming flesh made Jesus Mary’s son, but not God’s. This would suggest He had not been the Son of God and true deity prior to birth. Christ’s title as Son of God is a strong affirmation of the deity of Christ. Also from Ryrie’s Theology is the following:

Son of God. Our Lord used this designation of Himself (though rarely, John 10:36), and He acknowledged its truthfulness when it was used by others of Him (Matt. 26:63-64). What does it mean?

Though the phrase “son of” can mean “offspring of,” it also carries the meaning “of the order of.” Thus in the Old Testament “sons of the prophets” meant of the order of prophets (1 Kings 20:35), and “sons of the singers” meant of the order of the singers (Neh. 12:28). The designation “Son of God” when used of our Lord means of the order of God and is a strong and clear claim to full Deity. “In Jewish usage the term Son of . . . did not generally imply any subordination, but rather equality and identity of nature. Thus Bar Kokba, who led the Jewish revolt 135-132 B.C. in the reign of Hadrian, was called by a name which means ‘Son of the Star.’ It was supposed that he took this name to identify himself as the very Star predicted in Numbers 24:17. The name ‘Son of Encouragement’ (Acts 4:36) doubtless means, ‘The Encourager.’ ‘Sons of Thunder’ (Mark 3:17) probably means ‘Thunderous Men.’ ‘Son of man,’ especially as applied to Christ in Daniel 7:13 and constantly in the New Testament, essentially means ‘The Representative Man.’ Thus for Christ to say, ‘I am the Son of God’ (John 10:36) was understood by His contemporaries as identifying Himself as God, equal with the Father, in an unqualified sense” (J. Oliver Buswell, A Systematic Theology of the Christian Religion [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1962], 1:105).

There are many other ways and passages to support the deity of Christ, but the point here is that this title clearly does that. It does not and cannot, as it is used in the Bible, refer to Him as a son by the incarnation. The incarnation did not make Him Son of God, it was the means that the Son of God became man that He might die for our sin.


Guess we are in disagreement-again.
All I can say to the above is that I believe the writer has based the concept of Sonship relative to being begotten, on a preconceived ideas of how the trinity ought to work. Such human assumptions have added to what scripture actually teaches.
Should we be surprised that "modern scholars" would downgrade the literal begotten status of the Son of God to nothing more than a metaphor?

The Bible refers to Christ as God’s Son at least 120 times. Forty-eight times using the phrase “Son of God.”
Regarding the genuineness of Christ’s Sonship, He is called the “only begotten” six times, “the firstborn” four times, “the firstbegotten” once and God’s “holy child” twice.
Not once does the Bible even so much as hint that Jesus is only a Son in a metaphorical sense. The Bible means what it says and says what it means.
Four verses say He was “begotten” prior to His incarnation so this cannot be applied to His birth on earth from Mary as some have chosen to believe. These verses say that He “proceeded forth from,” “came out from” or “camest forth from” the Father.

The evidence on this subject is overwhelming. Christ truly is the literal begotten Son of God who was brought forth from the Father before all creation.
The example verses below with the help of the Thayer dictionary also reveal that Jesus was brought forth/born of the Father before the world was, then much later, He came into the world.
“I Came Out from God”
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon:
G1831 (ἐξέρχομαι-exerchomai) – To come forth from physically, arise from, to be born of.
G2064 (ἔρχομαι-erchomai) – To come from one place to another.
John 8:42 “Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, you would love me: for I proceeded forth [G1831] AND came from God; neither came [G2064] I of myself, but he sent me.”
John 16:27-28 “For the Father himself loveth you, because you have loved me, and have believed that I came out [G1831-exercomai] from God. 28 I came forth [G1831] from the Father, and am come [G2064] into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.”
John 17:7-8 “Now they have known that all things whatsoever you have given me are of you. 8 For I have given unto them the words which you gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out [G1831] from you, and they have believed that you did send me.”
Compare:
Matt 12:43-44 “When the unclean spirit is gone out (G1831, ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai ) of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out (G1831, ἐξέρχομαι exerchomai ) ; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.”

So beware of anyone trying to deceive you and trick you into thinking Jesus merely "came out from the presence of the Father", but did not truly originate from the Father.
This is a lie from the devil.
It is true that the Son obviously left the presence of His Father and went out from His presence, but that is included. The focus is on Christ's origin in heaven, and that is His Father. The message here encompasses BOTH Christ originating from His Father, AND leaving the presence of the Father to be sent into this world.
Both concepts are clearly presented.


There is overwhelming evidence in Scripture showing that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. It would be far too much to comment upon in detail here. Suffice it to say that certain of the Jews regarded His claim as blasphemous (Mark 14:60-65 John 10:36). They said He was claiming to be God (John 5:18, 10:30-33). It was this claim of Sonship that He was challenged with at His trial (Matthew 26:63, Luke 22:70). The Jews said His claims made Him worthy of death (Mark 14:64, John 19:7, see also John 8:56-59). Jesus was mocked for claiming to be the Son of God (Matthew 27:40-43). It was on this point of Sonship with God that Satan challenged Christ in the wilderness (Matthew 4:3-6, Luke 4:3-9). Peter, when confessing Christ to be “the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:16), was told by Jesus that it had not been “flesh and blood” that had revealed this to him but His Father in Heaven (Matthew 16:17). Jesus said very clearly that He was the Son of God (Matthew 16:16-17, John 3:16, 5:25-26, 9:35, 10:36, 11:4, 19:7). At His trial he claimed to be the Son of God (Matthew 26:64, Mark 14:62, Luke 22:70-71). It was this claim that brought about the sentence of death against Him (Mark 14:64, John 19:7).
The demons also addressed Jesus as the Son of God (Matthew 8:29, Mark 3:11, 5:7, Luke 4:41). The man in the tombs possessed of a devil also called Christ the Son of God (Luke 8:27-29). The Roman centurion said he believed that Christ was the Son of God (Mark 15:39). The disciples confessed Christ to be the Son of God (Matthew 14:33, 16:16, John 1:49, 11:27). Philip (the evangelist) explained to the Ethiopian eunuch that Christ was the Son of God (Acts 8:37). The first thing Paul taught after his 'blindness' was that Christ is the Son of God (Acts 9:20). Paul’s continuing theme was that God had sent His Son into the world to die (Romans 1:4, 8:3, 32, 2 Corinthians 1:19, Galatians 2:20, Ephesians 4:13 etc.). Not surprisingly, John's little letters, as does the book of Hebrews, constantly refer to Christ as the Son of God (1 John 3:8, 4:15, 5:5, 5:10, 5:12-13, 5:20, Hebrews 4:14, 6:6, 7:3, 10:29). That Christ is the Son of God was also the testimony of John the Baptist (John 1:32-34) – and so the list goes on.
Some say that Christ is a son only because of the virgin birth at Bethlehem, but if this were true, then John, when writing his Gospel (to show that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God), made a serious mistake. This is because he did not even mention the birth of Jesus or the events of Bethlehem. The only thing in this respect he did say was that the Word was made flesh (John 1:14). This must be the briefest of references to Christ’s incarnation that it is possible to make. If John had wanted to show that the only reason why Christ was called the Son of God was because of the virgin birth then surely he would have at least mentioned where the angel Gabriel visited Mary saying that the child she was going to bear would be called the Son of God (Luke 1:35). As it was he did not even mention it. The prime reason therefore for Christ being called the Son of God cannot be His birth at Bethlehem. There must be another reason.
The “signs” that John gave were signs of Christ’s divinity. Anyone can claim to be a son of God as a result of creation. The above overwhelming number of references to Jesus being not just a son, but the only begotten Son of God, must encompass far far more than a created being such as are angels.
 
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