Frank Russell
Well-known member
(1) And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death." (Gospel of Thomas)
Sounds like "a saving knowledge of Jesus"
An honest inquiry into the nature of Christology by a Trinitarian
- Thread starter Dizerner
- Start date
Sounds like "a saving knowledge of Jesus"
Johann
Well-known member
And yet you can not tell me of what Messiah "emptied" Himself of-according to the Scriptures-
7. ἀλλὰ ἑαυτὸν ἐκένωσεν: ‘but emptied himself.’ For the verb, comp. Rom. 4:14; 1 Cor. 1:17, 9:15; 2 Cor. 9:3; LXX; Jer. 14:2, 15:9. Not used or intended here in a metaphysical sense to define the limitations of Christ’s incarnate state, but as a strong and graphic expression of the completeness of his self-renunciation. It includes all the details of humiliation which follow, and is defined by these. Further definition belongs to speculative theology
And we don't want to speculate and philosophize now-do we?
1) "But made himself of no reputation" (alla heauton ekenosen) But emptied himself," self-effacing, condescension, unselfishness are here ascribed to Christ in His voluntary earthly birth and life, an example of practical ethical conduct for every believer in and professor of Christ, Isa 53:2-3; Mar 8:34.
I still believe my post to you from Grace Ambassadors is biblically sound brother.
late here-12.27 AM
Shalom.
J.
Dizerner
Well-known member
Yes, I can. And yes, I did. Over and over.
I have literally hundreds of posts explaining what was emptied, yet you say I "can not tell you."
To quote our President Biden, "Come on, man!"
Plus, when I give proper links to explain it, you just say you have your "own" sources, that are clearly bad logic.
"Further definition belongs to speculative theology" after he ALREADY JUST SPECULATED.
That's not even honest, and it's a bald assertion.
The word means emptying.
That's.
What.
It.
Means.
So all that "retelling" you what it "really" means is what is "speculative."
Dizerner
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
No matter-
Kenotic Error
Jesus emptying himself to become man is a doctrine called Kenosis. Though its consequences are similar to the earliest heresies about Christ’s deity the modern form of the Kenosis came out of the German rationalist apostasies of the 19th century.
It was at that time that the “emptying” and lesser God doctrine was answered by those who held to the fundamental tenets of the faith of Christianity. The fundamentalist movement (in contrast to the liberal) was born out of doctrinal problems such as the Kenosis.
Our doctrinal forefathers reiterated that Jesus was fully God in line with what Paul says in Col 2:9:
“For in [Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” – Col 2:9
In the likeness of man, Jesus was unchanged and was separate neither from his nature as God nor his divine attributes as Paul teaches in 1 Tim 3:16:
“God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” – 1 Tim 3:16
The King James Bible is correct when it says that Jesus, being in the form of God, merely “made himself of no reputation” (Phil 2:6-8).
Jesus Emptied Nothing
While in the womb, the hand of God in Christ was not shortened at all (Isa 50:2). He had the power to call the heavens to stand up together, and declare the end from the beginning (Isa 48:3, 13).
When he was yet twelve he had divine understanding and knew of the purpose for which he was sent, that is to die for the sins of all men (Luke 2:49).
In his ministry to Israel Jesus manifested his deity through omniscience, omnipotence, and transfiguration (John 1:49-50). He exercised his deity attributes both in conjunction with the Father and by his own power as God (Mat 8:24-27).
Mat 8:24 And, behold, there arose a great tempest in the sea, insomuch that the ship was covered with the waves: but he was asleep.
Mat 8:25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.
Mat 8:26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.
Mat 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
He knew the nature and the consequences of the cup before him in the garden (Mat 26:39). Yet, he proceeded knowing that what he would accomplish would be the mystery of God’s will, kept secret since the world began (Eph 3:9; 1 Cor 2:8).
That Jesus had the power to raise himself from the dead is a plain declaration of his deity (John 2:19). For many more proofs of his deity see our free resource and verse by verse study of the book of John.
If the fullness of the Godhead was in Christ, then he did not empty himself of anything. Rather he made himself to be of no reputation in the likeness of men.
A Neglected Incarnation Narrative
John 1:1 describes the Word as God which was in the beginning. John describes the majesty of the Word who had the light of all men, and who created all things (John 1:1-3).
It was this Word of God that stepped into humanity under a fleshly veil.
“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” – John 1:14
Though the likeness of man concealed his divine nature, it was revealed to those who received him. His deity was never compromised, never emptied, never removed, and never laid aside.
In Christ God was made flesh.
I think we are on the same page but somehow there is a miscommunication.
Goodnight.
GeneZ
Well-known member
No, its not like that.
He did like Mr. Robinson Crusoe did.
Storyline..
Yachtsman Steve Drexel bets his friends that he can swim ashore on a remote south-seas island
with nothing but a toothbrush and be 'living the life of Riley' when they return."
with nothing but a toothbrush and be 'living the life of Riley' when they return."
Jesus jumped ship with only a toothbrush ...
Jesus left all his unlimited wealth behind to go live off the land of earth without being able to draw from his Deity bank account.
His promise was to master the terrain with all its evils and establish it in prosperity...
Then, to afterwards. To write a book on how to thrive on that island. (He is the author and finisher of our faith!)
Until he finished his work on that Island? He had to keep denying himself his right to grab back out of his trillions what would make his life stress free and wonderful again. That is why some translated it... "he did not consider it robbery."
For, if he withdrew from his account?
It would not be considered thievery!
"Though the Lord Jesus Christ was rich, yet for your sake He became poor,
that you through His poverty might become rich" (2 Cor. 8:9).
It would not have been robbery if he took back up his powers of Deity!~
For, he was really the Trillionaire of the account! (He was really God)!
grace and peace ...............
GeneZ
Well-known member
Good thing.... Jesus did not dance the Moonwalk.
DavidTree
Well-known member
The point i was making is that people/Saints underestimate the power of satan.good
God created him with great power and authority = Eze ch28
“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Johann
Well-known member
I am not being dishonest here brother-
The doctrine of Jesus as God is fundamental to salvation and an essential truth about the character of God. Below is a list of references that confirm the deity of Jesus and offer proof that he has always been and will always be God. Those who diminish, doubt, or deny the divinity of Jesus do so at the destruction of the scriptures.
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. “ – Heb 13:8
Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
Matthew 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Matthew 14:26-33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Matthew 25:17-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. ~ See prophecies about God being the only saviour
Luke 19:43-44 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luke 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3-4 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Revelation 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Chen and Shalom Achi.
J.
GeneZ
Well-known member
What Michael did would be like if you walked up to former President Clinton and telling him...
...................."The Constitution rebukes you!"
DavidTree
Well-known member
LOVE IT
Johann
Well-known member
From Scriptures-not links.
Rockson
Well-known member
But does this have to mean because Jesus suspended the use of attributes that he divested himself of the Godhead? If my name is John Doe. and I tied down my feet so as I couldn't use certain abilities. Am I not still John Doe. Don't I have certain abilities still. Do they have to be where I can use them?
Now in my country we have people who have rather large substantial amounts of wealth in what's called tax free savings accounts. You can't touch them for a year or for whatever amount of time you want them in such. The person HAS this wealth. They're still worth such and such.
If one were to say to me I'm no longer wealthy or I'm diminished because I can't by agreement tap into such accounts.....well I still am just as wealthy. So consider Jesus is just as much God regardless as to whether he's set on the shelf certain things.
Now it seems to me if were going to take a position that God HAS TO use them or he's no longer God.....then I'm sorry but that has a familiar ring. Sounds very much like the Calvinistic argument because God is sovereign HE HAS TO force everything to his will. If he doesn't do that....he's no longer God. Please gentlemen. I think we need to be careful of saying when God can no longer be God.
And here's other statements which I feel needs a fair hearing. I believe Jesus is God, that he came to the earth. I believe when he came to the earth becoming a man there's more to the reasoning of the why to this then what people might think. Adam sinned. A man a human had to be instrumental in bringing about the reconciliation between God and man.
There was no man. God had to become a man. If an entity was there with powers beyond just what men are in and of themselves....it would not be legal. (now that raises another question when I suggest something might not be legal) (Maybe another time I can touch on what I mean)
So emptying himself many dear brothers hold that it can't mean the suspending of his attributes. Then why do we see Jesus tell the world, that is when he walked his earthly ministry .not now but then.....it's the Father in me! He....he....he doeth the works. John 14:10 We might ask too why did he say to the Pharisees, "Many good works (speaking of the miracles) have I shewed you from my Father...John 10:31
Now connect that back to the Father in me he doeth the works. There's other passages I think should be in the mix when studying this subject as well. God Bless.
GeneZ
Well-known member
That's another one to add to the List of Jesus showing Himself not to be Functioning as God.
See that, you two natures in Christ deniers?
That's how we know..... Its in the Word of God.
..............
Wilber
Active member
The reason Jesus could walk on water is because he is God. That is to say Jesus is God incarnate: The Second Person of the Trinity descended from heaven and became human.
The Lord Jesus is God, the Messiah, and the Savior of the world. When you realize who was crucified on that cross and why he was crucified on that cross, then you will live a life of praise.
Yes we have much to praise God for: Starting with giving us a new resurrection life, continuing on through allowing us to be free from the power of sin, and finally culminating in an eternal home, free from the pains of this life.
Jesus did not think that equality with God was something to be grasped and held onto, no matter what. How could Christ possibly have this attitude if he was not divine himself?
The point seems quite clear: Jesus is God, but he didn’t consider it necessary to hold onto everything that goes with that position. He didn’t get rid of his divine nature, but he set aside some of the privileges that come with it by taking on the form of a bondservant and by being made in the likeness of men.
Johann
Well-known member
Not what I am advocating-
There sure is-study the Pronoun.
The Bible is a life-giving book--
1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co_3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co_3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co_3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co_3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
Goodnight.
Dizerner
Well-known member
There is a school of thought that considers that Christ did in fact, expressly depend on the Holy Spirit for all things.
He did not do this because he had no power, but rather because he stood our behalf to fulfill the Law as one of us.
You will notice in all places, Jesus gives credit to the Spirit and Father for all miracles, and expresses dependence on them.
I tend to believe that Jesus is our Exemplar, in addition to everything else He is. He did say greater things we could possibly do. That's mind blowing to read that in Scripture.
I don't think it has anything to do with legalism. I think it has everything to do with us allowing the Holy Spirit to shine through from within us and from our actions.
Right.
GeneZ
Well-known member
Then? Peter is God.
But Jesus immediately said to them: “Take courage! It is I. Don’t be afraid.”
“Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”
“Come,” he said.
Then Peter got down out of the boat,
walked on the water and came toward Jesus." Matthew 14:27-29
Yes,,,,,, Jesus is God.
Yes...... Jesus is also fully man.
Philippians 2:6-8 tells us that He made a choice.
A choice not to function as God, but as a man, as the means to get to the Cross.
Take time and study Philippians 2:6-8, please.
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