An honest Calvinist who knows what Sovereign means

[civic]

Paul D. Miller of The Gospel Coalition

What does it mean to say that God is sovereign? The refrain has become so common, almost clichéd, in Reformed writing and preaching that it sometimes slips away from the reader or listener without lodging meaning in the mind. Worse, we typically hear the phrase to mean something it doesn’t. When Christians affirm that “God is sovereign,” they often mean “God is in control.” Paul Tripp, for example, wrote in his excellent book Lost in the Middle that “God truly is sovereign . . . there is no situation, relationship, or circumstance that is not controlled by our heavenly Father.”

The problem is that the English word sovereignty does not mean control. The U. S. government is sovereign within American territory, but that doesn’t mean the government controls everything within American borders or causes all that happens. If you look up sovereignty in the dictionary you’ll not find control in the definition—nor even as a synonym in a thesaurus.

hope this helps !!!

 

[alan]

I appreciate this Calvinist’s honesty with the meaning of sovereignty. I would like to see how the Calvinists in the forum will respond .

 

[civic]

I appreciate this Calvinist’s honesty with the meaning of sovereignty. I would like to see how the Calvinists in the forum will respond .

Yes sovereignty does not mean what some teach regarding God.

 

[civic]

Calvinist John Frame explains that all things happen not by “mere permission”:

Does God Permit Sin?

Consider now the term permits. This is the preferred term in Arminian theology, in which it amounts to a denial that God causes sin. For the Arminian, God does not cause sin; he only permits it. Reformed theologians, however, have also used the term, referring to God’s relation to sin. The Reformed, however, insist contrary to the Arminians that God’s “permission” of sin is no less efficacious than his ordination of good. Calvin denies that there is any “mere permission” in God:
From this it is easy to conclude how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be not by [God’s] will, but merely by his permission. Of course, so far as they are evils, which men perpetrate with their evil mind, as I shall show in greater detail shortly, I admit that they are not pleasing to God. But it is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely [= idly] permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing but the author of them.1
God’s “permission” is an efficacious permission.

 

[praise_yeshua]

A Biblical definition of Sovereignty is found in

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God sets boundaries and defines limits. Man operates freely within those boundaries.

Why? It is clear from verse 27.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

God is "NOT FAR" .... from "every one of us"... and God wants us to "SEEK HIM"....

Talk about a contrast to what Calvinism teaches...

 

[Biblelesson]

I appreciate this Calvinist’s honesty with the meaning of sovereignty. I would like to see how the Calvinists in the forum will respond .

If you want to take the definition of sovereignty to mean control then let's take a look at how it works in Election. "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a Sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform.

What the sovereignty of God means is that God is Sovereign...that God is God: He rules over heaven and earth. He will never relinquish His power to any creature. He will direct all things according to His sovereign purpose. God rules.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

If you want to take the definition of sovereignty to mean control then let's take a look at how it works in Election. "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a Sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform.

What the sovereignty of God means is that God is Sovereign...that God is God: He rules over heaven and earth. He will never relinquish His power to any creature. He will direct all things according to His sovereign purpose. God rules.

Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? That God reigns supreme in Heaven is generally conceded; that He does so over this world, is almost universally denied-if not directly, then indirectly. More and more are men in their philosophizing and theorizing relegating God to the background. Take the material realm. Not only is it denied that God created everything by personal and direct action, but few believe that He has any immediate concern in regulating the works of His own hands. Everything is supposed to be ordered according to the (impersonal and abstract) "laws of Nature." Thus is the Creator banished from His own creation. Therefore we need not be surprised that men, in their degrading conceptions, exclude Him from the realm of human affairs. Throughout Christendom, with an almost negligible exception, the theory is held that man is "a free agent," and therefore, lord of his fortunes and the determiner of his destiny.

...

Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? What impression is made upon the minds of those men of the world who, occasionally, attend a Gospel service? What are the conceptions formed by those who hear even those preachers who are counted as "orthodox?" Is it not that a disappointed God is the One whom Christians believe in? From what is heard from the average evangelist today, is not any serious hearer obliged to conclude that he professes to represent a God who is filled with benevolent intentions, yet unable to carry them out; that He is earnestly desirous of blessing men, but that they will not let Him? Then, must not the average hearer draw the inference that the Devil has gained the upper hand, and that God is to be pitied rather than blamed?

--The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink

 

[Biblelesson]

Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? That God reigns supreme in Heaven is generally conceded; that He does so over this world, is almost universally denied-if not directly, then indirectly. More and more are men in their philosophizing and theorizing relegating God to the background. Take the material realm. Not only is it denied that God created everything by personal and direct action, but few believe that He has any immediate concern in regulating the works of His own hands. Everything is supposed to be ordered according to the (impersonal and abstract) "laws of Nature." Thus is the Creator banished from His own creation. Therefore we need not be surprised that men, in their degrading conceptions, exclude Him from the realm of human affairs. Throughout Christendom, with an almost negligible exception, the theory is held that man is "a free agent," and therefore, lord of his fortunes and the determiner of his destiny.

...

Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? What impression is made upon the minds of those men of the world who, occasionally, attend a Gospel service? What are the conceptions formed by those who hear even those preachers who are counted as "orthodox?" Is it not that a disappointed God is the One whom Christians believe in? From what is heard from the average evangelist today, is not any serious hearer obliged to conclude that he professes to represent a God who is filled with benevolent intentions, yet unable to carry them out; that He is earnestly desirous of blessing men, but that they will not let Him? Then, must not the average hearer draw the inference that the Devil has gained the upper hand, and that God is to be pitied rather than blamed?

--The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink

having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 2 Timothy 3:5

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21

Most of us have a desperate desire to understand, but in so many areas we must acknowledge that we cannot understand. We must approve of God’s ways, even when we can’t comprehend them.

Isaiah 55:8-9 tells us why we often don’t understand what God is doing: "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"

 

[civic]

Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? That God reigns supreme in Heaven is generally conceded; that He does so over this world, is almost universally denied-if not directly, then indirectly. More and more are men in their philosophizing and theorizing relegating God to the background. Take the material realm. Not only is it denied that God created everything by personal and direct action, but few believe that He has any immediate concern in regulating the works of His own hands. Everything is supposed to be ordered according to the (impersonal and abstract) "laws of Nature." Thus is the Creator banished from His own creation. Therefore we need not be surprised that men, in their degrading conceptions, exclude Him from the realm of human affairs. Throughout Christendom, with an almost negligible exception, the theory is held that man is "a free agent," and therefore, lord of his fortunes and the determiner of his destiny.

...

Who is regulating affairs on this earth today-God, or the Devil? What impression is made upon the minds of those men of the world who, occasionally, attend a Gospel service? What are the conceptions formed by those who hear even those preachers who are counted as "orthodox?" Is it not that a disappointed God is the One whom Christians believe in? From what is heard from the average evangelist today, is not any serious hearer obliged to conclude that he professes to represent a God who is filled with benevolent intentions, yet unable to carry them out; that He is earnestly desirous of blessing men, but that they will not let Him? Then, must not the average hearer draw the inference that the Devil has gained the upper hand, and that God is to be pitied rather than blamed?

--The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink

pink has an unbiblical view of Sovereignty and asks a fallacious question based on his false assumptions about sovereignty.

 

[civic]

A Biblical definition of Sovereignty is found in

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

God sets boundaries and defines limits. Man operates freely within those boundaries.

Why? It is clear from verse 27.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

God is "NOT FAR" .... from "every one of us"... and God wants us to "SEEK HIM"....

Talk about a contrast to what Calvinism teaches...

I was just thinking hence my response. Every human at some point asks what is my purpose here in life, why am I here and wonders about the origins of life asking questions. This either leads one to the true God or all the other false gods/religions and the other option is denying their is a God and take the route of the agnostic/atheist and seek their meaning/purpose through it.

Acts 17:27 had me pondering that question.

 

[alan]

If you want to take the definition of sovereignty to mean control then let's take a look at how it works in Election. "Is election conditional or unconditional?" That is, did God choose His people on the basis of some action they must perform first -- or did He choose them freely and independently? Was election conditioned on something man must first do -- or did God choose certain people simply because it was His good pleasure to do so? Scripture itself teaches that election rests solely upon the decree of a Sovereign God, and has nothing to do with any action man must first perform.

What the sovereignty of God means is that God is Sovereign...that God is God: He rules over heaven and earth. He will never relinquish His power to any creature. He will direct all things according to His sovereign purpose. God rules.

If God is good then he does not purpose evil and sin by decree. What Joseph’s brothers meant for evil, God meant for good. Sovereign doesn’t mean he controls every persons will and choices they make that have been ordained to occur in eternity .

 

[civic]

If God is good then he does not purpose evil and sin by decree. What Joseph’s brothers meant for evil, God meant for good. Sovereign doesn’t mean he controls every persons will and choices they make that have been ordained to occur in eternity .

Ditto

 

[Biblelesson]

If God is good then he does not purpose evil and sin by decree. What Joseph’s brothers meant for evil, God meant for good. Sovereign doesn’t mean he controls every persons will and choices they make that have been ordained to occur in eternity .

There's no question about God being good.

Isaiah 45:8-10​

8 “Shower, O heavens, from above,
and let the clouds rain down righteousness;
let the earth open, that salvation and righteousness may bear fruit;
let the earth cause them both to sprout;
I the LORD have created it.
9 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him,
a pot among earthen pots!
Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’
or ‘Your work has no handles’?
10 Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

We know from Psalm 139:13–16 that we were each formed by God while inside our mothers. We are His masterpieces, created by Him for unique purposes (Ephesians 2:10). God is intimately involved in our creation: “The word of the LORD came to me, saying: ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I set you apart and appointed you a prophet to the nations’” (Jeremiah 1:4–5). That statement alone should overwhelm us with wonder. The Lord God Almighty, Creator of the universe, chooses us individually and then creates us exactly as He wants us to be. Scripture is clear that every human being was created by God for His pleasure and His purpose (Colossians 1:16). GOT?

 

[Rockson]

Most of us have a desperate desire to understand, but in so many areas we must acknowledge that we cannot understand. We must approve of God’s ways, even when we can’t comprehend them.

And the question is what are God's ways? We have a right and responsibility actually to question exactly what you think they are. If we think indeed that God's ways about this subject and theme can be understood ;then never should we default to a position one gives that even what I say may seem unfair you should accept it regardless.

Isaiah 55:8-9 tells us why we often don’t understand what God is doing: "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"

He has also said however but that which he has revealed he has given unto us. Deut 29:29

 

[praise_yeshua]

I was just thinking hence my response. Every human at some point asks what is my purpose here in life, why am I here and wonders about the origins of life asking questions. This either leads one to the true God or all the other false gods/religions and the other option is denying their is a God and take the route of the agnostic/atheist and seek their meaning/purpose through it.

Acts 17:27 had me pondering that question.

Some of the most ardent Calvinists I've ever studied refuse to deal with Acts 17:27. It completely destroys their narrative.

What if we actually treated them like they would treat us? If they actually had any power whatsoever, they would kill us just like Calvin targeted Servetus.

I would never do the same. At every hand most every Calvinist I've ever meet would think they kill their enemies in the "name of God".

So much for the Reformation of the "supposed" "Reformers.

 

[praise_yeshua]

If God is good then he does not purpose evil and sin by decree. What Joseph’s brothers meant for evil, God meant for good. Sovereign doesn’t mean he controls every persons will and choices they make that have been ordained to occur in eternity .

When a man takes the good things of God and corrupts them for his own benefit and desire, that man is the primary cause of evil. Not God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. 2 Timothy 3:5

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:21

Most of us have a desperate desire to understand, but in so many areas we must acknowledge that we cannot understand. We must approve of God’s ways, even when we can’t comprehend them.

Isaiah 55:8-9 tells us why we often don’t understand what God is doing: "'For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,' declares the Lord. 'For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.'"

Amazing. In 35 years of battling Calvinism, do you how many Calvinists I've seen claim that no one can really understand God while insisting that "THEY" understand God?

You're making an appeal to "just listen to me".......

It is all about Power. Controlling others.

 

[Biblelesson]

Amazing. In 35 years of battling Calvinism, do you how many Calvinists I've seen claim that no one can really understand God while insisting that "THEY" understand God?

You're making an appeal to "just listen to me".......

It is all about Power. Controlling others.

No offense but you sound a little paranoid

 

[praise_yeshua]

No offense but you sound a little paranoid

Care to detail how you've come to that conclusion?

Maybe you just repeated what you heard without giving it anything thought otherwise?

I'd say it is essential that if you're going to claim you believe something, then there no room to claim you don't know why......

Appealing to ambiguity when it benefits your argument is self serving.

 

[Biblelesson]

Are you Insinuating I'm hearing voices? That's rather ambiguous. I claim there's no room for your claim.