A request

[civic]

I'd be willing to sign up but only against a unitarian opponent that understands the Koine Greek NT. I have yet to meet one. I'd be surprised if one does exists. For example, see Post 191 from which @Runningman has yet to respond to. We must both agree to a common source of authority for the debate to go anywhere.

Also, @Runningman appointed himself the Score Keeper in Post 191. I personally don't think we should keep score because it requires a neutral non-biased person to keep score who is rare to find.

there were a few back in the old days 15-20 years ago on the other forum in the language section. but its been years since I have seen one online on any forum.

in fact I have several discussion with them saved back when I had invited Robert Bowman Jr to join the forum and debate the unitarians.

good thing I saved those thread posts because everytime they upgraded they would lose threads and have to start over. it was a giant pain and frustrating to say the least. I guess they got hacked allot back then.

 

[Runningman]

I don't care what Synergy knows about you or what you are talking about............

Sigh. My point was The Heavenly Father never was called "THE" God by people who know and love him. Or by any Trinitarian.

JN 1:1 states and the Word was God. Unless you are in the NWT or that ancient Hebrew doc I posted yesterday.

OF COURSE THE WORD WAS NEVER CALLED THE GOD.... ANYWHERE.

That would be saying the Word was the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit rolled into a nice package with a big bow on it.

Quit using THE in reference to the Heavenly Father ... The can only apply to The "singular" Godhead which is three and since you do not believe... stop using it

As to Jn 1: 14 we are told And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Since you are having trouble with the Word.... OBVIOUSLY.... can you tell us all what this verse tells you about who the Word was?

I draw on what John 1:1 and the rest of the Bible says to understand what the Word that was with The God is. John was most likely being poetical since the word of God in Hebrew poetry was often personified (Psalm 33:6; Psalm 107:20; Psalm 147:15; Isaiah 55:10-11); and consequent upon this concrete and independent representation, divine attributes are predicated of it (Psalm 34:4; Isaiah 40:8; Psalm 119:105)

Why? Because 1 John 1:1-3 explicitly says the word is eternal life and a non-person thing that was revealed by Jesus to his disciples during his ministry, not at the beginning of creation.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Runningman]

I'd be willing to sign up but only against a unitarian opponent that understands the Koine Greek NT. I have yet to meet one. I'd be surprised if one does exists. For example, see Post 191 from which @Runningman has yet to respond to. We must both agree to a common source of authority for the debate to go anywhere.

Also, @Runningman appointed himself the Score Keeper in Post 191. I personally don't think we should keep score because it requires a neutral non-biased person to keep score who is rare to find.

Oh ok, I would be surprised if you had some credentials to back up your suggestion that you understand Koine Greek beyond an amateur level. Degrees, certificates, seminaries? Or just an armchair Greek scholar like the rest of us?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I learn from these-Matt 24:45= the only ones( teachers) Jesus is with.

Yeah yeah yeah. I know. Everyone is doing it right?

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

Since there is one going on now with several posters maybe we can have a more traditional debate with @Runningman against a Trinitarian besides @Red Baker.

Not sure what you saying ~are saying leave me out of the Trinitarian debate? Care to explain yourself?

 

[synergy]

Oh ok, I would be surprised if you had some credentials to back up your suggestion that you understand Koine Greek beyond an amateur level. Degrees, certificates, seminaries? Or just an armchair Greek scholar like the rest of us?

You still have not responded to Post 191. If you're raising a white flag then just say so. Don't beat around the bush.

Good thing that you stopped presenting yourself as the Score Keeper. That's a step in the right direction.

 

[Runningman]

You still have not responded to Post 191. If you're raising a white flag then just say so. Don't beat around the bush.

Good thing that you stopped presenting yourself as the Score Keeper. That's a step in the right direction.

Sure I can respond to it, but if you're such a Greek expert, as you seem to be suggesting, then what are your credentials?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Well, you will disagree but I believe the serpent was Satan or sent by Satan. Satan is referred to as "the god of this world" in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Satan has been at odds with the Heavenly Father from before time... When the morning star said In Isaiah 14, expressed a desire to ascend to heaven and exalt his throne above God's stars, claiming he would be like the Most High.

I believe that was the start of going after God's human creation

I agree.

No.

Agreed. Then why was Satan there?

I disagree. I think Adam loved her so much and he saw how she loved the fruit and wanted to please her by accepting it from her.

In my mind, this would make Adam culpable in her actions. He wasn't. He sacrificed himself for her.

Not sure. She was not going to physically die at that moment and neither was he. And he did leave her alone long enough for her to get in trouble with that serpent.

I did not exactly blame him. I question why he was not close enough to protect her from the serpent.

No enemies before Satan. Nothing to expect. We have locks now and other things. We protect ourselves.

Agreed. And if by any chance she is found in heaven when I die and I see her, I am going to plant my foot squarely on her back side.

Ah. Kinda of what I was looking for. I believe most people feel the same way to some degree toward Adam and Eve both. The teachings of men have come along to us to the point of blaming them for everything. Which is preposterous.

Question is..... would you or I.... have done differently?

That answer is no. We wouldn't have. If you look at this from a perspective of innocence. You will see that Eve wasn't expecting to be deceived. No one had lied to her before. She had no context of what a lie would produce. Zero. This is essential to understanding what happened.

Adam nor Eve were gifted with the knowledge of evil. Such must be experienced. This is where everything gets good for me. It is the core of my theology. It explains why Satan was even there.

 

[civic]

@civic

Not sure what you saying ~are saying leave me out of the Trinitarian debate? Care to explain yourself?

No you are already active in one. Its for others to have an opportunity to debate someone. You can have as many debates as you want as long as someone from the opposing side wants to debate you.

 

[Runningman]

You just exposed your ignorance of Greek.

In John 1:1c — “the Word was God” (Greek: καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος) — the noun θεός (“God”) appears without the definite article. In linguistic terms, this is called an anarthrous predicate nominative.

In Koine Greek, an anarthrous predicate nominative that appears before the verb has a qualitative sense. It describes the nature or essence of the subject rather than identifying it as the same person as another.

Thus, John is not saying, “the Word was the God [the Father]” — which would make the Word identical in person to the Father — but rather, “the Word was of the very nature of God.” The emphasis is on what the Word is (fully God), not who the Word is (the Father). We are not Modalists. Do you understand?

This grammatical structure supports the idea that the Word shares the divine God Nature, while still being distinct in person from God the Father.

Learn some Greek and then we can talk. Ok?

Who made you the Score Keeper? Talk about egotistical conflict of interests. You take the cake.

I somewhat agree with this to a point, and it has been something I have been saying for a while now already, but you go the wrong direction with it. This is more proof that the Word is not The God becuase the Word is not actually God, but rather "shares God's divine nature" which is totally in line with how Unitarians translate John 1:1.

From the REV:

John 1:1 (REV)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and what God was the word was.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Are you sure he wasn't when he saw her living after she ate the fruit? She was deceived, certainly but I feel he was too.

Have you ever noticed someone that is overwhelmed with a circumstances? This was very "BIG" for Eve. I believe it was written "all over her face."

God made her from his rib. He had no other choice.

At that time, maybe but he had begun to know her. It was more than just a fresh relationship. If you look at relationships in our lives, I think we can know what happened here.

I dont think he did until he ate the fruit

Not the entirety of it but he knew it was bad. I can tell when my wife is consumed with something. She can tell it from me as well. We have a relationship.

But god did not excuse Adam for that.

Exactly. God didn't excuse Adam but God did prepare a way before Adam was ever formed from the ashes of destruction.

Our lives are a part of this process. It is our "skin in the game".

You understand this. Most do not

A foreshadowing of unknown love that is beyond our comprehension but sure feels good..... Doesn't it?

 

[Red Baker]

@Studyman

Also, it is widely taught that Jesus wasn't a mortal human, but came to earth "as God man". They promote the teaching that Jesus overcame Sin, Temptation and death, because HE was God with access to God power no other human was ever allowed access to. In other words, God, the Holy One of Israel, came to earth as a man, but withheld from Himself the "Sinful Flesh" Red preaches to the world HE creates in all men at birth, "because of Adams sin". And according to Red, his Jesus overcame sin and temptation because HE retained for Himself "God Powers" He Himself withheld from all other humans. And that Jesus "overcame", not by Faith, that all others are to Live By, but by accessing God Powers HE withheld from everyone else. Then, when HE overcame, "Because" God can't sin, "Because" can't be tempted, and "Because" God Can't die, HE Glorified Himself by giving Himself a Name above all other Humans.

You are a coward! Do not take free shots at me, without entering into a serious debate on this subject. They should start this debate with you and me one on one! Others can be matched up as best for them.. All of us should at one time be able to debate each person. But, this is not up to me.

You have misrepresented me. Much of what you are babbling about is border line of blasphemy.

@Administrator please consider starting this debate off with me and @ Studyman and use his post here to do so, please. If he does not agree then he should not allow to stay here speaking against Jesus' deity, for young believers may read and be led astray from the truth by his lies. May the Lord Jesus grant you the wisdom to do as best to bring glory to him.

1st Timothy 1:20​

“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.”

1st Timothy 1:16,17​

“Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.”

Jude 1:25​

“To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.”

 

[praise_yeshua]

I somewhat agree with this to a point, and it has been something I have been saying for a while now already, but you go the wrong direction with it. This is more proof that the Word is not The God becuase the Word is not actually God, but rather "shares God's divine nature" which is totally in line with how Unitarians translate John 1:1.

From the REV:

John 1:1 (REV)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and what God was the word was.

Are you as good as your word?

Words are manifestations of our very character. They come forth from our very essence.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive, effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, cutting to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints from marrows, astutely judging the thoughts and intents of our human heart.

They are the essence of speech. When they come forth from God, they are HIM....

This fact is cumulative in the manifestation of Jesus Christ. This is all about origin of the Word.

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

You might make a good Trinitarian if you just give in. I can tell you're changing. You have to admit this. The "Word" is working on you. Just stop resisting. Honor Christ.

 

[synergy]

I somewhat agree with this to a point, and it has been something I have been saying for a while now already, but you go the wrong direction with it. This is more proof that the Word is not The God becuase the Word is not actually God, but rather "shares God's divine nature" which is totally in line with how Unitarians translate John 1:1.

I highlighted where you went wrong.
John 1:1c says "the Word was God", not that the Word is not actually God.

"Sharing God's divine nature" means that the Word is omnipresent, omnipotent, etc... You do believe that God is naturally omnipresent and omnipotent, right? That's proof that the Word is God.

From the REV:

John 1:1 (REV)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and what God was the word was.

The originals would have to say the following for the highlighted portion of your verse to be true: αυτό που ήταν ο Θεός, ήταν ο λόγος.

I'll stick with the Koine Greek of John 1:1c which says: θεος ην ο λογος which brings me right back to what I posted in Post 191.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I agree.



Agreed. Then why was Satan there?



In my mind, this would make Adam culpable in her actions. He wasn't. He sacrificed himself for her.



No enemies before Satan. Nothing to expect. We have locks now and other things. We protect ourselves.



Ah. Kinda of what I was looking for. I believe most people feel the same way to some degree toward Adam and Eve both. The teachings of men have come along to us to the point of blaming them for everything. Which is preposterous.

Question is..... who you or I.... have done differently?

That answer is no. We wouldn't have. If you look at this from a perspective of innocence. You will see that Eve wasn't expecting to be deceived. No one had lied to her before. She had no context of what a lie would produce. Zero. This is essential to understanding what happened.

Adam nor Eve were gifted with the knowledge of evil. Such must be experienced. This is where everything gets good for me. It is the core of my theology. It explains why Satan was even there.

Also, remember Satan was called the God of this world.

I cannot prove it and if you call me a heretic for what I am going to say I will ignore you forever. That goes for anyone else.

I have for an extremely long time15 or 20 years believed that God had it in mind to create something as almost a test
against "The Morning Star" AKA Satan here.

That, as I said I have no proof, when The Morning Star ......“But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
And 1/3 of the angels were following him..... Creations that God had made... I could see God saying that He was going to make a creation even a little lower then the angels believing that we all would follow him... but Satan as God here had the upper hand
in a way.

You are right that Eve was an innocent. Never lied to before and I am certain happy for another voice who seemed overly friendly. So for a serpent to slither in was no problem. And that set things in motion.

So with the strong hold Satan has here, and obviously from the beginning, Satan was gaining human followers in numbers and God had to execute His plan of Christ Jesus as our sacrifice or we alll would be lost.

My gut tells me that we are here because of the rift between God and Satan.

So This is simplified for example as my thoughts are many more on this.

I am just suggesting... a why, and a possible how.

 

[Runningman]

Are you as good as your word?

Words are manifestations of our very character. They come forth from our very essence.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive, effective and sharper than any double-edged sword, cutting to the point of dividing soul and spirit, joints from marrows, astutely judging the thoughts and intents of our human heart.

They are the essence of speech. When they come forth from God, they are HIM....

This fact is cumulative in the manifestation of Jesus Christ. This is all about origin of the Word.

Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

You might make a good Trinitarian if you just give in. I can tell you're changing. You have to admit this. The "Word" is working on you. Just stop resisting. Honor Christ.

That's very philosophical, but surely you udnerstand that when you say something, though your words can represent your character and nature, they are not a distinct and seperate person from yourself? Your words are not you or a seperate person.

I am not changing and becoming more Trinitarian-like. If anything, I have become more militant about Unitarianism and sharper about how to debate it. I have possibly become more tolerant of Trinitarianism since I understand what it is better nowadays.

 

[FreeInChrist]

I somewhat agree with this to a point, and it has been something I have been saying for a while now already, but you go the wrong direction with it. This is more proof that the Word is not The God becuase the Word is not actually God, but rather "shares God's divine nature" which is totally in line with how Unitarians translate John 1:1.

From the REV:

John 1:1 (REV)
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and what God was the word was.

The REV project has now gone on for over twenty years, and many different people have been involved over the years. Translation work is continuing steadily in both the Old and New Testaments, and the commentary is constantly expanding. In addition to translating from the Hebrew and Greek critical texts, translators use Hebrew and Greek grammars and lexicons, other English translations, commentaries, journal articles, and historical and geographical studies to improve the translation.

If they keep translating someday they might have satan sitting at God's right hand.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Also, remember Satan was called the God of this world.

I cannot prove it and if you call me a heretic for what I am going to say I will ignore you forever. That goes for anyone else.

I very seldom use the word heretic. I don't remember the last time I did. I have a broad tolerance of beliefs.

I have for an extremely long time15 or 20 years believed that God had it in mind to create something as almost a test
against "The Morning Star" AKA Satan here.

That, as I said I have no proof, when The Morning Star ......“But you said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God, And I will sit on the mount of assembly In the recesses of the north.
And 1/3 of the angels were following him..... Creations that God had made... I could see God saying that He was going to make a creation even a little lower then the angels believing that we all would follow him... but Satan as God here had the upper hand
in a way.

I've said this before. There is circumstantial evidence to prove it. I believe that somewhere in the "shadows" Satan was watching after being defeated and this world was turned to ashes, that God took and formed Adam from the ashes of destruction to "show" Satan what is to win the willing to Himself.

Who is like "our God"? Who is His equal?

You are right that Eve was an innocent. Never lied to before and I am certain happy for another voice who seemed overly friendly. So for a serpent to slither in was no problem. And that set things in motion.

So with the strong hold Satan has here, and obviously from the beginning, Satan was gaining human followers in numbers and God had to execute His plan of Christ Jesus as our sacrifice or we alll would be lost.

My gut tells me that we are here because of the rift between God and Satan.

So This is simplified for example as my thoughts are many more on this.

I am just suggesting... a why, and a possible how.

Got it. The plan of God was purposed in Christ before God ever created Adam.

1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

No less than what happened, could have created the willingness of mankind to embrace God.

There is no value to be found in gifting Adam and Eve with knowledge they'd just reject if they were not to experience that for themselves. We see this in our children. We live the experience God has had with us.....in our own lives ourselves.

 

[synergy]

The REV project has now gone on for over twenty years, and many different people have been involved over the years. Translation work is continuing steadily in both the Old and New Testaments, and the commentary is constantly expanding. In addition to translating from the Hebrew and Greek critical texts, translators use Hebrew and Greek grammars and lexicons, other English translations, commentaries, journal articles, and historical and geographical studies to improve the translation.

If they keep translating someday they might have satan sitting at God's right hand.

What differentiates the REV translation project from the dozens of other translation projects? What is their "angle"?

 

[praise_yeshua]

That's very philosophical, but surely you udnerstand that when you say something, though your words can represent your character and nature, they are not a distinct and seperate person from yourself? Your words are not you or a seperate person.

Correct to a degree but you're still resisting the Unity that exists in relationship. Independent but willingly the same.

You're thinking like a man that has never realized their own failures. You want to RULE in your mind. There can only be "One".

I am not changing and becoming more Trinitarian-like. If anything, I have become more militant about Unitarianism and sharper about how to debate it. I have possibly become more tolerant of Trinitarianism since I understand what it is better nowadays.

Ah. Pride. We all have it. I pray God breaks your pride.

You really don't understand Trinitarianism because you lack the fundamental understanding of what a relationship between separate Persons is.....

You might get it one day as life teaches you to not be so self centered. There is a danger in not properly honoring Jesus Christ. It will catch up to you one day. I hope it doesn't.