A question for Justin Martyr

[Matthias]

“The Apologists, especially Justin, taught the subordination of the Son to the Father. From Justin’s Dialogue (Cf. Seeburg, Eng. ed., 113) the Father alone is the real God; the Logos is only a Divine Being of second rank. … while the Father is eternal, infinite, incomprehensible, unchangeable and transcendent, the Son is not (Justin, Dial. 56, 62, 128f.)”

(J.L. Neve, A History of Christian Thought, Vol. 1, p. 47)

It is widely reported, Justin, that you believe in “the deity of Christ”.

With that in mind, here is my question to you: What kind of deity is the Son, whom you’ve said is not the real God, is a divine being of second rank, is not eternal, is not infinite, is not incomprehensible, is not unchangeable, and is not transcendent?

 

[Diserner]

Wow, do you just swallow everything you read without researching any source material. Like is that your pattern?

You pasted a big PDF in about Tertullian, then I had to do all the hard work of searching out badly sourced footnotes that showed severe misrepresentation.

That's not honest, and that's not an honest way to dialogue or make a point, to just regurgitate heavy bias that completely reinvents the source.

Here, let's try some actual quotations and let "Justin" answer you for himself with his own words, instead of putting words into his mouth as this author clearly did:

"nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God."

Logos Virtual Library: Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology, 63

Also quite clearly he argues AGAINST the inferiority of the Son here:

For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, ..." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)

And there are many other quotes that contradict the claims in the OP:

Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit

I am glad someone is here to defend the truth about the words of Justin.

And I am certain he would be glad of that too.

 

[civic]

Wow, do you just swallow everything you read without researching any source material. Like is that your pattern?

You pasted a big PDF in about Tertullian, then I had to do all the hard work of searching out badly sourced footnotes that showed severe misrepresentation.

That's not honest, and that's not an honest way to dialogue or make a point, to just regurgitate heavy bias that completely reinvents the source.

Here, let's try some actual quotations and let "Justin" answer you for himself with his own words, instead of putting words into his mouth as this author clearly did:

"nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God."

Logos Virtual Library: Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology, 63

Also quite clearly he argues AGAINST the inferiority of the Son here:

For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, ..." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)

And there are many other quotes that contradict the claims in the OP:

Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit

I am glad someone is here to defend the truth about the words of Justin.

And I am certain he would be glad of that too.

quote mining fallacy at its worst.

 

[Matthias]

Wow, do you just swallow everything you read without researching any source material. Like is that your pattern?

You pasted a big PDF in about Tertullian, then I had to do all the hard work of searching out badly sourced footnotes that showed severe misrepresentation.

That's not honest, and that's not an honest way to dialogue or make a point, to just regurgitate heavy bias that completely reinvents the source.

Here, let's try some actual quotations and let "Justin" answer you for himself with his own words, instead of putting words into his mouth as this author clearly did:

"nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God."

Logos Virtual Library: Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology, 63

Also quite clearly he argues AGAINST the inferiority of the Son here:

For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, ..." (Dialog of Justin with Trypho, a Jew, ch 60)

And there are many other quotes that contradict the claims in the OP:

Early Christian faith on Trinity, deity of Christ, personality of the Holy Spirit

I am glad someone is here to defend the truth about the words of Justin.

And I am certain he would be glad of that too.

The trinitarian author I quoted (a Lutheran) is correct. Justin, as everyone who has read him knows, believed in two numerical gods, with one being far superior to the other.

Have no fear of me reporting you for calling me a liar.

 

[Matthias]

Like Dr. Neve, Dr. Seeberg was a Lutheran theologian.

Reinhold Seeberg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It has been asserted by a trinitarian member of the forum, with the full knowledge and consent of the owner of the forum, that these two Lutheran scholars are “biased and dishonest”. What next? Will they accuse them (and me?) of not even having read Justin Martyr?

Beware, readers. Some of the trinitarians on this forum have also asserted that some of the finest minds in the history of trinitarian translation were grammar illiterates.
.

 

[civic]

such a reliable source wiki lol.

beware readers.................................

 

[Matthias]

such a reliable source wiki lol.

beware readers.................................

Seeberg, Reinhold | Encyclopedia.com

SEEBERG, REINHOLD German Lutheran theologian and historian of dogma; b. Pörrafer, Estonia, April 5, 1859; d. Ahrenshoop, Germany, Oct. 23, 1935. Source for information on Seeberg, Reinhold: New Catholic Encyclopedia dictionary.

www.encyclopedia.com

How many more confirmations will it take to satisfy you?

 

[civic]

I'm not interested in mine quoting fallacy or the appeal to authority fallacy.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Matthias]

Reinhold Seeberg

Reinhold Seeberg was a German Protestant theologian.

prabook.com

 

[civic]

not interested in another reformed theologian, maybe someone else might be. I'll stick with luther and calvins doctrines since they are his source for truth and augustine was their source for truth. I'll deal with the source. The big fish in the pond not the minnows.

 

[Matthias]

Reformed theologians. Why should anyone - trinitarian or non-trinitarian be interested in listening to them? Especially after the trinitarian testimony that has been given in this thread against these two?

Read widely. Read deeply. Read thoughtfully. Read critically. Read Reformed theologians.

You’re shortchanging yourself if you choose not to.

 

[civic]

seeberg is reformed so stop quoting them since like you say who cares. you must since you quoted the reformed german theologian.

I have all the big guns systematic theological works from the reformed camp.

hope this helps!!!

 

[Diserner]

Read Reformed theologians.

You’re shortchanging yourself if you choose not to.

Uh... no?

Why would you submit yourself to hours and hours of error?

Unless you are doing it to reach people caught up in error, it's a waste of time.

Stick with Scripture as primary, and add prayer.

 

[Matthias]

Uh... no?

Why would you submit yourself to hours and hours of error?

It isn’t all error. It‘s also the theological perspective of a great many trinitarians whom I’ve spoken with in the past, am speaking with in the present, and will be speaking with in the future.

To speak with them intelligently, I need to know and understand what they believe and why they believe it.

Unless you are doing it to reach people caught up in error, it's a waste of time.

Stick with Scripture as primary, and add prayer.

 

[civic]

Uh... no?

Why would you submit yourself to hours and hours of error?

Unless you are doing it to reach people caught up in error, it's a waste of time.

Stick with Scripture as primary, and add prayer.

notice the scriptures are now obsolete in our discussions and here we go down all the rabbit trails with the appeal to authority fallacies and secondary sources void of scripture and filled with the doctrines and opinions of men.