7 Reasons the church does not go through the great tribulation

@civic @Jim @DavidTree @FreeInChrist @Selah @brightfame52
Revelation 4-19 clearly describe the tribulation time period. Following the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3, the church is not heard of again until Revelation 19. Where did the church go? If it is still on the earth, why don’t we hear anything about it during the tribulation? The ministry of the 24 elders may give us a clue.
Actually Revelation 20:1-9, is part of the latter day tribulation period that the saints shall go through, which is a judgement upon false rellgion that has taken over the temple of God throughout this world ~ just as the OT church suffered at the hand of the Babylonians, and some of the saints endure suffering during the time wrath was pour forth upon the false professors of Israel...history will repeat itself as the NT church will fall into the same apostasy that OT professors of God did.

the church is not heard of again until Revelation 19.
This is not correct.

Revelation 6:2​

“And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”

The color of the first horse is white, which is symbolic of victory. Repeatedly this color appears as such in Scripture. Those who are faithful and overcome shall ultimately appear in white robes. In Chapter 19:11, where we have a final description of the battle of Armageddon, the Lord Jesus appears as the victor, seated upon a white horse, in all the glory of His power and victory. Thus it was also customary in the Roman army that the victors should return riding on white horses. Hence, it may be deemed rather evident that the white horse is symbol of a victorious power. In harmony with this color of the horse are the other features pictured in the text. First of all, we are told that the rider has a bow, which is symbolic of righteous and victorious warfare. In Psalm 45:5 we read of the king who is typical of Christ: "Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee." In the second place, the rider receives a crown: not the royal diadem in this case, but the garland, the wreath of victory. And finally, this idea of victory is definitely expressed in the last clause, that the rider goes forth "conquering and to conquer," which by its peculiar repetition assures us of the certainty of the victory this rider will win. Therefore, we have in the first seal the picture of an armed warrior, going forth to battle, whose victory is assured him beforehand.

This represent the first church (Paul and others) leaving Jerusalem and going north throughout the Roman Empire turning the world upside down the the gospel of Jesus Christ thousands converted to the faith of Jesus Christ, many churches started throughout the known world.

Revelation 6:11​

“And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

So, the church is still here and will be until Christ come again, at the last day of this world.
The book of Revelation is "NOT" written in not chronological order, but many chapters give unto us a bird's eye view of the time from Christ's death and resurrection until the time he comes again at the end of this world, and events that takes place in bewtween that timeline. Chapter six does just that! Each succeeding chapters adds a little more to what the others did not give to us.

Chapter seven is no different! From the sealing of God's elect unto the end of the world~the 144,000 thousand are a number that no man can number out of every nation, kindred and tongues!

Revelation 7:9
“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;”
 
There are a few bible topic that must be understood before one can truly grasp the full understanding of eschatology~one is Mystery Babylon, I have a 80 page article that I did a few years back that I could share some of it in this thread for anyone who would desire to know more on this subject.

Mystery Babylon is this world system with its false religion~Revelation 17; and its commerce and entrainments, and things it has to offer to those who give their heart, soul and mind in following~Revelation 18! The beast is the spirit of the devil (Revelation 13) working through men/women in false religion, and also men who are of this world who may not be religious, yet who serve its (the world's) lust thereof, and who rejects the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the God of heaven.
pure conjecture that its the world- Babylon was a real city in the bible. Its called the great city in Revelation 13:10.

just more adding to scripture and taking away from scripture.

heed Jesus warning before its to late

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19;and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

next fallacy..........
 
@civic
pure conjecture that its the world- Babylon was a real city in the bible. Its called the great city in Revelation 13:10.

just more adding to scripture and taking away from scripture.

heed Jesus warning before its to late

Revelation 22:18-19
For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19;and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

next fallacy..........
Come and debate me on this subject, if you think I'm wrong.
 
@civic
Its called the great city in Revelation 13:10.

Revelation 13:10​

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”

?
 
There are many problems with Civic's view:

Luke 21:20 makes it clear that the abomination of desolation is "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - not something during the end times, and not a particular person they call the anti-Christ. The word anti-Christ is only used by John in 1 John 2:18, where he seems to be referring to Matthew 24:5 - "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ', and will mislead many."

We also know that all of Matthew 24:1-34 will occur during the generation alive when Jesus spoke those words.
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." However, Jesus switches gears in verse 35-51, all of which appears to be about His 2nd coming.

Also Civic's view necessitates a 2000 year plus gap between the 69th week that Daniel speaks of, and the 70th week. There is absolutely NO scripture that speaks of such an arbitrary gap. This is totally made up by John Nelson Darby, the father of Dispensationalism.

There are MANY errors in this system - too many to discuss now.

Dispensationalism is based on one man's faulty interpretation. That man, Darby, claimed that his interpretation had been lost since the time of the early church, but that God had revealed it to him in about 1830. By the way, Joseph Smith made the same claim about his cultic beliefs, also in 1830. Interesting.

Another point of interest. C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Study Bible in 1909. He was one of the first persons, if not THE first person to publish a Bible with his own notes put on the same pages of the Scripture itself. What is the main theme of his notes? The dispensational views of John Nelson Darby. In so doing, he has "usurped the place of authority that belongs to God's Bible alone." Philip Mauro "The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism" Introduction, printed in 1928.

The Dallas Theological Seminary was opened for one primary purpose - to indoctrinate students with the Dispensational view of scripture. In fact, for decades the seminary would not allow any student to graduate, who did not hold to the interpretations of Dispensationalism. If that's not indoctrination, I don't know what is. That blatantly violates the scripture that tells us that God allows us a free will. Therefore Christian students should not be punished for holding a view that differs from that of their teachers/professors.

While the Dispensational view is no longer required for students at DTS, it is STILL required for the seminaries FACULTY and BOARD, who obviously will still be teaching this view with their authority.
 
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There are many problems with Civic's view:

Luke 21:20 makes it clear that the abomination of desolation is "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - not something during the end times, and not a particular person they call the anti-Christ. The word anti-Christ is only used by John in 1 John 2:18, where he seems to be referring to Matthew 24:5 - "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ', and will mislead many."

We also know that all of Matthew 24:1-34 will occur during the generation alive when Jesus spoke those words.
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." However, Jesus switches gears in verse 35-51, all of which appears to be about His 2nd coming.

Also Civic's view necessitates a 2000 year plus gap between the 69th week that Daniel speaks of, and the 70th week. There is absolutely NO scripture that speaks of such an arbitrary gap. This is totally made up by John Nelson Darby, the father of Dispensationalism.

There are MANY errors in this system - too many to discuss now.

Dispensationalism is based on one man's faulty interpretation. That man, Darby, claimed that his interpretation had been lost since the time of the early church, but that God had revealed it to him in about 1830. By the way, Joseph Smith made the same claim about his cultic beliefs, also in 1830. Interesting.

Another point of interest. C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Study Bible in 1909. He was one of the first persons, if not THE first person to publish a Bible with his own notes put on the same pages of the Scripture itself. What is the main theme of his notes? The dispensational views of John Nelson Darby. In so doing, he has "usurped the place of authority that belongs to God's Bible alone." Philip Mauro "The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism" Introduction, printed in 1928.

The Dallas Theological Seminary was opened for one primary purpose - to indoctrinate students with the Dispensational view of scripture. In fact, for decades the seminary would not allow any student to graduate, who did not hold to the interpretations of Dispensationalism. If that's not indoctrination, I don't know what is. That blatantly violates the scripture that tells us that God allows us a free will. Therefore Christian students should not be punished for holding a view that differs from that of their teachers/professors.
:ROFLMAO:

keep telling yourself that lol.
 
There are many problems with Civic's view:

Luke 21:20 makes it clear that the abomination of desolation is "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - not something during the end times, and not a particular person they call the anti-Christ. The word anti-Christ is only used by John in 1 John 2:18, where he seems to be referring to Matthew 24:5 - "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ', and will mislead many."

We also know that all of Matthew 24:1-34 will occur during the generation alive when Jesus spoke those words.
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." However, Jesus switches gears in verse 35-51, all of which appears to be about His 2nd coming.

Also Civic's view necessitates a 2000 year plus gap between the 69th week that Daniel speaks of, and the 70th week. There is absolutely NO scripture that speaks of such an arbitrary gap. This is totally made up by John Nelson Darby, the father of Dispensationalism.

There are MANY errors in this system - too many to discuss now.

Dispensationalism is based on one man's faulty interpretation. That man, Darby, claimed that his interpretation had been lost since the time of the early church, but that God had revealed it to him in about 1830. By the way, Joseph Smith made the same claim about his cultic beliefs, also in 1830. Interesting.

Another point of interest. C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Study Bible in 1909. He was one of the first persons, if not THE first person to publish a Bible with his own notes put on the same pages of the Scripture itself. What is the main theme of his notes? The dispensational views of John Nelson Darby. In so doing, he has "usurped the place of authority that belongs to God's Bible alone." Philip Mauro "The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism" Introduction, printed in 1928.

The Dallas Theological Seminary was opened for one primary purpose - to indoctrinate students with the Dispensational view of scripture. In fact, for decades the seminary would not allow any student to graduate, who did not hold to the interpretations of Dispensationalism. If that's not indoctrination, I don't know what is. That blatantly violates the scripture that tells us that God allows us a free will. Therefore Christian students should not be punished for holding a view that differs from that of their teachers/professors.

While the Dispensational view is no longer required for students at DTS, it is STILL required for the seminaries FACULTY and BOARD, who obviously will still be teaching this view with their authority.
There is a giant gap between Jesus 1st and 2nd Comings. 69th and 70th week

Another fallacy of yours .
 
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.”
The white horse symbolizes Jesus Christ returning at His Second Coming.

Wait a minute. I’m wrong there. Hold on …

selah
 
There is a giant gap between Jesus 1st and 2nd Comings. 69th and 70th week

Another fallacy of yours .
A lot of misunderstanding comes from confusing these two events.

all believers are raptured. Jesus will immediately take them back into heaven with Him. But when Christ returns to earth seven years later in the Second Coming, He is coming to stay.

This return, usually referred to as “the Second Advent,” will take place at the end of the Tribulation period and usher in the Millennium—a thousand-year reign of Christ on this earth. So, first, the Rapture will occur seven years before the Second Advent. At that time Christ will take us to be with Him in heaven, immediately before the seven-year Tribulation period. Then, secondly, we will return to earth with Him at His Second Advent.

There is another important difference. There are no events that must take place before the Rapture occurs. It’s all a matter of God’s perfect timing. When I preach that signs are developing concerning the Lord’s return, I’m referring to events that must yet occur before the return of Christ in the Second Advent.


Learn About the Rapture, Tribulation, Antichrist, Second Coming, Millennium, Heaven, and More
 
Revelation 6:2 = the first Seal.
[2] And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
You may already be aware of this, but in Rev. 19, Christ comes on a white horse.

But wait! There's a "he" with a little "h" sitting on this white horse. No big "H"? Who's this dude? …a fake, an imposter, that’s who.

We also see he has a little bow—a bow and arrow.

The Greek word is toxon, #5115. It means the simplest (cheapest) fabric. It's a cheap fabric made to resemble the beautiful "shekinah glory" surrounding the big "H". This guy is the deceiver Jesus warns us about over and over.

We need to all learn about the 7 seals so that we’re not deceived when all this becomes a reality.

selah
 
There are many problems with Civic's view:

Luke 21:20 makes it clear that the abomination of desolation is "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." - not something during the end times, and not a particular person they call the anti-Christ. The word anti-Christ is only used by John in 1 John 2:18, where he seems to be referring to Matthew 24:5 - "For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ', and will mislead many."
Specific reference to antichrist is found only four times in Scripture, all in the epistles of John (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3; 2 John 7)

2:18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2:22Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

4:3 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


We also know that all of Matthew 24:1-34 will occur during the generation alive when Jesus spoke those words.
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." However, Jesus switches gears in verse 35-51, all of which appears to be about His 2nd coming.

Also Civic's view necessitates a 2000 year plus gap between the 69th week that Daniel speaks of, and the 70th week. There is absolutely NO scripture that speaks of such an arbitrary gap. This is totally made up by John Nelson Darby, the father of Dispensationalism.

There are MANY errors in this system - too many to discuss now.

Dispensationalism is based on one man's faulty interpretation. That man, Darby, claimed that his interpretation had been lost since the time of the early church, but that God had revealed it to him in about 1830. By the way, Joseph Smith made the same claim about his cultic beliefs, also in 1830. Interesting.

Another point of interest. C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Study Bible in 1909. He was one of the first persons, if not THE first person to publish a Bible with his own notes put on the same pages of the Scripture itself. What is the main theme of his notes? The dispensational views of John Nelson Darby. In so doing, he has "usurped the place of authority that belongs to God's Bible alone." Philip Mauro "The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism" Introduction, printed in 1928.

The Dallas Theological Seminary was opened for one primary purpose - to indoctrinate students with the Dispensational view of scripture. In fact, for decades the seminary would not allow any student to graduate, who did not hold to the interpretations of Dispensationalism. If that's not indoctrination, I don't know what is. That blatantly violates the scripture that tells us that God allows us a free will. Therefore Christian students should not be punished for holding a view that differs from that of their teachers/professors.

While the Dispensational view is no longer required for students at DTS, it is STILL required for the seminaries FACULTY and BOARD, who obviously will still be teaching this view with their authority.
 
@Amos:
A lot of misunderstanding comes from confusing these two events.
Yes there are, and yours are one of them. There's no such teaching as a secret Rapture. Not one verse to support such a teaching. When Jesus returns again all NT writers taught a visibly revelation of his second coming.

1st Peter 1:13​

“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;”

2nd Thessalonians 1:7,8​

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

Matthew 24:29-31​

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The church/the elect are here until the very last day of this world as we know it, and immediately after the tribulation of the last days, Christ shall return to gathered together his elect and shall bring wrath upon the world of unbelievers.
 
@Amos:

Yes there are, and yours are one of them. There's no such teaching as a secret Rapture. Not one verse to support such a teaching. When Jesus returns again all NT writers taught a visibly revelation of his second coming.

1st Peter 1:13​

“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;”

2nd Thessalonians 1:7,8​

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”

Matthew 24:29-31​

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

The church/the elect are here until the very last day of this world as we know it, and immediately after the tribulation of the last days, Christ shall return to gathered together his elect and shall bring wrath upon the world of unbelievers.
Rapture has nothing to do with the angels you are conflating it with His visible 2nd Comings. One He comes to earth the other He does not .

Next fallacy
 
@civic
There are many problems with Civic's view:
I agree, but I also agree that the preterist have major problems.
We also know that all of Matthew 24:1-34 will occur during the generation alive when Jesus spoke those words.
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." However, Jesus switches gears in verse 35-51, all of which appears to be about His 2nd coming.
This is incorrect. "This generation" has reference to the evil and wicked generation of men that Christ spoke about all through Matthew 24, will never pass until all is fulfilled. I'll make a separate post on this later, and then you can test it with the scriptures.
Dispensationalism is based on one man's faulty interpretation. That man, Darby, claimed that his interpretation had been lost since the time of the early church, but that God had revealed it to him in about 1830. By the way, Joseph Smith made the same claim about his cultic beliefs, also in 1830. Interesting.

Another point of interest. C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Study Bible in 1909. He was one of the first persons, if not THE first person to publish a Bible with his own notes put on the same pages of the Scripture itself. What is the main theme of his notes? The dispensational views of John Nelson Darby. In so doing, he has "usurped the place of authority that belongs to God's Bible alone." Philip Mauro "The Gospel of the Kingdom with an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism" Introduction, printed in 1928.

The Dallas Theological Seminary was opened for one primary purpose - to indoctrinate students with the Dispensational view of scripture. In fact, for decades the seminary would not allow any student to graduate, who did not hold to the interpretations of Dispensationalism. If that's not indoctrination, I don't know what is. That blatantly violates the scripture that tells us that God allows us a free will. Therefore Christian students should not be punished for holding a view that differs from that of their teachers/professors.

While the Dispensational view is no longer required for students at DTS, it is STILL required for the seminaries FACULTY and BOARD, who obviously will still be teaching this view with their authority.
Agreed~I like Philip Mauro's writings also.

I'm a Amill idealist, so I too am a futurist in one sense without all the garbage/sci friction of premill teachings.
Luke 21:20 makes it clear that the abomination of desolation is "when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies,
This is easy to explain using scriptures.

Revelation 20:8,9​

“And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

It is the spiritual Jerusalem, that the men of spiritual Mystery Babylon compassed about to destroy...bad choice!

More on this later~@dwight92070 thanks for joining, please continue to participate, the more the better.
 
There is a giant gap between Jesus 1st and 2nd Comings. 69th and 70th week

Another fallacy of yours .
What verse in Daniel 9 speaks of Jesus' 2nd coming? And which verse tells us there is a giant gap between His first coming and His 2nd coming?
:ROFLMAO:

keep telling yourself that lol.
What else would I tell myself? Dispensational views that have no basis in the Scripture?


Next fallacy.
 
@civic
Rapture has nothing to do with the angels you are conflating it with His visible 2nd Comings. One He comes to earth the other He does not .
The burden of proof in on your shoulder Mr. Civic. You must prove that there is a secret coming of Christ for his church and there is a coming back with his church, you can never prove such a false teaching as that.
"If you repeat an untruth enough times, many will begin to believe it simply by process of indoctrination, and will look upon it as established truth."-WiseManSay
You believe this lie by the process of indoctrination, you have been dupe.
One He comes to earth the other He does not .
Prove it, you have the floor. I'll be back later, to see what you have found...I think I already know the answer!
 
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