7 Reasons the church does not go through the great tribulation

[Red Baker]

@civic

next fallacy

The only fallacies so far are your. Also, so far, you have not made even one quote coming directly from you, not one. I'm actually addressing the gentleman's article, not one word from Mr. civic.

If you would like to do so, let's just you and I give our understanding of Matthew 24,25 that will go along way of seeing who has truth or not on this subject ~ Or, we can go to Revelation beginning at chapter six and take one chapter at a time and see who has the truth or not. You chose, I'll follow you.

 

[Selah]

@civic

The only fallacies so far are your. Also, so far, you have not made even one quote coming directly from you, not one. I'm actually addressing the gentleman's article, not one word from Mr. civic.

If you would like to do so, let's just you and I give our understanding of Matthew 24,25 that will go along way of seeing who has truth or not on this subject ~ Or, we can go to Revelation beginning at chapter six and take one chapter at a time and see who has the truth or not. You chose, I'll follow you.

He just doesn’t know end-time prophecy. (sigh)

 

[Selah]

Also, I’m not liking the way many members are using AI copy-and-paste methods of communicating. Let’s go back to learning for ourselves. That’s why there’s so much lack of knowledge. selah

 

[Selah]

Let’s post our own knowledge, the things we believe from our own personal studies.

selah

 

[civic]

Let’s post our own knowledge, the things we believe from our own personal studies.

selah

My comments outside of the OP are mine. Most of my threads are my own work and study

 

[DavidTree]

He just doesn’t know end-time prophecy. (sigh)

Well, at least you and i love a Good Treasure Hunt!!!

 

[DavidTree]

@civic

The secret rapture of the church before the last days is a false doctrine. The church of Jesus Christ will be here until the last day, and will "not" be taken out before then. That's a heresy promoted by the Scofield reference Bible, that many different cults and sad to say some good Christians have bought into, simply by the fact of what we said above:

Jesus Christ said this:

John 6:39​

“And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”

John 6:40​

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 6:54​

“Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 5:28​

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
This takes place on the last day, at the LAST TRUMP!

1st Corinthians 15:51,52​

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

The last trump is the seventh trumpet of Revelation, when there shall be NO MORE after this one, and clearly Paul is saying that saints shall be raised at the LAST TRUMP. So, the resurrection of the saints takes place on the last day at the last trumpet.

Revelation 11:15​

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Revelation 16:17​

“And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.”

Revelation 10:7​

“But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

So, there is no more time after the last (seventh) trump shall sound

Continue to speak the Truth in Righteousness = never adding or taking away from our Heavenly FATHER's words

 

[Red Baker]

@civic

My comments outside of the OP are mine

The OP is what I'm commenting on, and I'm dealing with his topic, not every verse he use since it his topic is wrong, who cares what scriptures he is attempting to use? So far civic you are not using any verses to support what you think is biblical.

 

[Selah]

Does everyone know that the Day of the Lord is the day that Christ returns to earth as King of kings?

selah

 

[Red Baker]

@civic @brightfame52 @Jim @FreeInChrist

The Gentile Believers at the Second Coming

The word of God never separates the Gentiles believer's from the Jews in the NT, BOTH are ONE HOLY SPIRITUAL TEMPLE where the Spirit of God shall forever dwell within!

Ephesians 2:11-22~"Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."

At the time of the rapture, believers in Christ who are alive and remain will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and to live with Him forever. However, the Bible indicates there will be believers here on earth during the tribulation. It will not be that some get left behind, but that some Gentiles will place their faith in Jesus Christ. That is a very unlikely thing, though, as 2 Thessalonians 2:11 tells us there will be strong delusion, causing most to believe the lies of the Antichrist. (Perhaps it is this delusion that causes Jews to fall into the deceptive trap of the Antichrist.)

Civic and ALL premillennialists I have one question for all of you to answer for me ~which comes first, Christ's coming for his people, or the man of sin/antichrist/abomination of desolation? All of you will with one voice say, Christ's coming for his people will take place first, but Paul said otherwise! This should alert you of your unbiblical position, but he seems as though it does not. Listen carefully to 2nd Thessalonians 2:

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3~"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

These scripture clearly said that Christ's coming and our gathering together unto him will not come EXCEPT the antichrist/man of sin be revealed! Yet all premillennialists teach just the opposite of what Paul is teaching us. Who shall we believe? Of course the word of God, not those who have been deceived by the many false prophets who just repeat what they have heard from others. The Scofield Reference Bible has done more to promote this lies than any other reference bible, and most just beleive it as though it was the truth of God's word. Now Jimmy Swaggart's expositor's Bible is doing the same.

2nd Thessalonians 2 is speaking about the latter days of the last day just before Christ's second coming~what is recorded in 2nd Thessalonians 2 is the same message that's in Matthew 24; Mark 13 and Luke 21!

Is there anyone who would like to debate me on 2nd Thess. 2~I'm ready to do so. I may start here this weekend the Lord willing, since it is a portion of God's word that is so missed understood.

 

[Red Baker]

@Selah

Does everyone know that the Day of the Lord is the day that Christ returns to earth as King of kings?

The day of the Lord and the day of Christ are ONE and the same, regardless what many may say otherwise.

 

[DavidTree]

@Selah

The day of the Lord and the day of Christ are ONE and the same, regardless what many may say otherwise.

YES it is = according to the OT Prophets, the LORD and the Apostles

We either bear witness to the TRUTH, It is Written, or we say: "Did God really say?"

Choose you this Day whom you will serve.......do we fear God or men

 

[Selah]

Here is some more teaching on The Lord’s Day, the second coming of Jesus Christ.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9

And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORD'S Revelation 19:16 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; Revelation 19:17
Christ's return ("The Lord's Day") will not take place until Satan first comes to earth claiming to be Christ.
This happens at the 7th trump (There are only 7 trumps). Satan the Antichrist comes before Jesus, at the 6th trump.

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 Thessalonians 2:1 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2 Thessalonians 2:2 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The man of sin is none other than the devil (Satan) (the Antichrist).

selah

 

[civic]

@Selah

The day of the Lord and the day of Christ are ONE and the same, regardless what many may say otherwise.

The NT refers to the day of the Lord as the day of His wrath. It’s a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to the time when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel during the great tribulation. See (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1)

hope this helps !!!

 

[Grace ambassador]

Does everyone know that the Day of the Lord is the day that Christ returns to earth as King of kings?

selah

Great, we should know that! How about the other Two Days?:

--------------------
Day of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD vs Day Of God!

According To the preaching of JESUS CHRIST, In The Revelation
Of The Mystery! (Romans - Philemon!), "The Day Of CHRIST!" =

The "Judgment Day" Of The Heavenly Body Of CHRIST,
who Will Be Taken Home To Heaven { LIGHT! }, For "shame... and/or:
...rewards, rejoicing, And reigning!" (1 Corinthians 3:8-15) Amen?:

“That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit or ​

by word, nor by letter as from us, as that The Day Of CHRIST is at hand." ​

(2 Thessalonians 2:2)​

“Who Shall Confirm you Unto the end, that ye may be blameless ​

In The Day Of our LORD JESUS CHRIST!" (1 Corinthians 1:8)​

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, ​

that the spirit may be saved In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!" ​

(1 Corinthians 5:5)​

“As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, ​

even as ye also are ours in the In The Day Of The LORD JESUS!" ​

(2 Corinthians 1:14)​

“Being confident Of This Very Thing, That HE Which Hath Begun A ​

Good Work In you, Will Perform It Until The Day Of JESUS CHRIST!" ​

(Philippians 1:6)​

“That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye ​

may be sincere and without offence till The Day Of CHRIST!" ​

(Philippians 1:10)​

“Holding forth The WORD Of Life; that I may rejoice in The Day Of CHRIST ​

that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain." (Philippians 2:16)​

All According to The Mystery For The Body Of Christ!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

According To Prophecy for the nation of Israel:

The Day Of The LORD / "earthly" Israel / nations! in judgment /
wrath / battle / destruction / terror / DARKNESS / horror / pain! =

--------------------- Time Of JACOB's Trouble!!:

“The Day Of The LORD!” is common throughout the Old Testament.
The prophets referred constantly to it. In the New Testament,
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, Paul, and Peter referred to It! Some of
the Many Passages are the following:

Isaiah 2:11-12, 17, 13:4-6, 9, 13, 34:8; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3;​

Joel 1:15, 2:1, 11, 31, 3:14; Amos 5:18, 20; Obadiah 1:15; Zephaniah 1:7, 14;​

Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Matthew 24:1-51; Acts 2:20; Romans 2:5;​

1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 1:10;​

compare: "That Day" in Isaiah 2:11, 17, 20, 3:18.

"That Day" is a time of terror, darkness, and wrath. It is a​

“day of visitation” (Isaiah 10:3), a “Day of the Wrath Of ​

The LORD!” (Ezekiel 7:19), THE “Great Day Of The LORD!”​

(Zephaniah 1:14)​

-------------
Finally, there is Also: "The Day Of God!":

"Looking for and hasting unto The Coming Of The Day Of God, ​

wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the​

elements shall melt with fervent heat?" (2 Peter 3:12)​

---------
Conclusion, only one question: Should God's "children of Light"
(Ephesians 5:8; 1 Thessalonians 5:5) In The Body Of CHRIST,
Really prefer darkness (Woe!) Over LIGHT ( Comfort!! )?

Thus, we believe, with Paul, that our Departure To Glory Is
IMMINENT ( Could happen At Any Moment, No signs required )!
---------
Finally, God Admonishes ALL diligent Bible students:

"Prove ALL things; hold fast That Which Is Good!" (1 Thessalonians 5:21)​

------------------
Borrowed from (17-Part) God's Great Grace Departure
Part # 10 = Day of Christ vs Day of The Lord vs Day Of God

Amen.

 

[DavidTree]

The NT refers to the day of the Lord as the day of His wrath. It’s a day of “wrath,” a day of “visitation,” and the “great day of God Almighty” (Revelation 16:14) and refers to the time when God’s wrath is poured out on unbelieving Israel during the great tribulation. See (Isaiah 22; Jeremiah 30:1-17; Joel 1-2; Amos 5; Zephaniah 1)

hope this helps !!!

You are CORRECT and that Day begins after Christ Returns(2nd Coming) and gathers His Elect off the earth BEFORE the LORD Jesus Christ tramples the rebellion in His Wrath.

I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man,
hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Same DAY = two different outcomes

 

[Red Baker]

@Selah @DavidTree @Jim @civic @FreeInChrist

The man of sin is none other than the devil (Satan) (the Antichrist).

Who is the man of sin? This is a question that generates a lot of strong opinions, but very little sound exegesis or emphasis on the actual text or context. In fact, the passage itself clearly identifies the protagonist as the man who is "of sin." There we have our answer, because this immediately makes it clear that God is referring to the sinful or lawless man who usurps God's authority in the temple/house of God. It is the man who has the spirit of antichrist, denying Christ as the supreme ruler of God's house.

There is absolutely no practical or Biblical evidence that the apostle is prophesying about the institution of the papacy in the Roman Catholic Church, Caligula's sins, Nero Caesar's persecution of Christians, Hitler's belief that through him the assembly could become the established church, Satan incarnate, or any of the other fanciful reiterations that permeate church lore.

Faithful and noble Berean Christians should ask themselves this question in order to faithfully understand the pertinent passages. "Are not interpretations under the divine auspices of God's word (Genesis 40:8; Genesis 41:15-16), and if they are then the answer that will bring knowledge and peace of mind to the faithful student of God's word will be found within God's word. The answers will not be found outside of it through our own conjecture, suppositions, or theories. What is the form of the sinful man of God's house, his stated behavior, his office, and his characteristics?

By considering these things in the light of Scripture we will be better equipped to identify who this lawless man that dares to sit and rule in God's house as if he were God. Through the study of God's word, we understand that the man of sin has always been lawless in the assembly and this has been recorded "down throughout history". The man of sin in God's assembly sought his own and asked for a false god in the wilderness to lead them (Exodus 32:1). The lawless man in God's house over two thousand years ago told Pilate to crucify Christ (John 19:6). They are those lawless leaders of a misguided and misgoverned people of God, and who corrupt the truth of God's word. They cause iniquity to increase in God's congregation by forsaking God's laws, thinking to govern by and for himself. They reject biblical doctrines for their own liken, so they can make them more acceptable to their blinded followers. That is effectively positioning himself as a sovereign ruler, negating righteous laws as if "he" himself reigned as God. From Biblical history we know that the man of sin "is nothing new" , (just will increase in great numbers toward the very end of this world) as he has rebelled against the government of God "throughout time",(just as Paul said, the mystery of iniquity doth already work! and has since Eden!) and always with the same mindset and spirit of the antichrist within him. We were once the man of sin, slavish children of the antichrist unto lawlessness. But now we are the man of God, children of obedience set free of God. It is a contrast between the man of lawlessness and the man of obedience (Ephesians 2:2). Likewise, the false ruler in God's house is the man of sin. (Much from Tony Warren's sermon/article on this subject that I read a few years ago) More on this later...

 

[Red Baker]

There are a few bible topic that must be understood before one can truly grasp the full understanding of eschatology~one is Mystery Babylon, I have a 80 page article that I did a few years back that I could share some of it in this thread for anyone who would desire to know more on this subject.

Revelations 14:6-11~And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Mystery Babylon is this world system with its false religion~Revelation 17; and its commerce and entrainments, and things it has to offer to those who give their heart, soul and mind in following~Revelation 18! The beast is the spirit of the devil (Revelation 13) working through men/women in false religion, and also men who are of this world who may not be religious, yet who serve its (the world's) lust thereof, and who rejects the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the God of heaven.

 

[FreeInChrist]

There are a few bible topic that must be understood before one can truly grasp the full understanding of eschatology~one is Mystery Babylon, I have a 80 page article that I did a few years back that I could share some of it in this thread for anyone who would desire to know more on this subject.

Mystery Babylon is this world system with its false religion~Revelation 17; and its commerce and entrainments, and things it has to offer to those who give their heart, soul and mind in following~Revelation 18! The beast is the spirit of the devil (Revelation 13) working through men/women in false religion, and also men who are of this world who may not be religious, yet who serve its (the world's) lust thereof, and who rejects the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding of the God of heaven.

Good morning @Red Baker

I should have comment from your first post, but since they tie together here I am.

This is a subject that I HAVE NOT overly studied but have thoughts..... and now I will do an indepth....

You say, above "There is absolutely no practical or Biblical evidence that the apostle is prophesying about the institution of the papacy in the Roman Catholic Church" and while that is specifically true it certainly does not say it is not.

You say above "By considering these things in the light of Scripture we will be better equipped to identify who this lawless man that dares to sit and rule in God's house as if he were God. "

And we do know that this one will sit in God's house as you say.

I might remind you that prophesy in the bible was before the instituting of the RCC, so I tend to lean away from that idea, even knowing what you and I both read elsewhere.

Just shooting an idea here... I do not believe it is a church at all.........

2 Thes 2:4 KJV
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul says temple and every thing that I have read , so far, also say this refers to temple.

There will be a lot of naysayers come along... maybe even you... but there are plans for a third temple to be built to replace the two that were destroyed in history.

The plans are actually to the blueprint stage from what I have read.

So... there would be a temple for the anti-Christ to sit in.... possibly not in the far off future .

One could make an argument that when Jesus built his church on Peter... or the rock Peter was standing near that
it would be appropriate for the RCC that grew from that to finish the job, so to speak.

I dont think so... WE... Gentiles ... still are the ones that were grafted into that Olive Tree by the grace of God not long after JESUS SAID HIMSELF HE WAS ONLY SENT FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL....

They were the first from God and they were always called God's chosen.

IMO... This is the appropriate "God's House" for the Anti-Christ.

 

[DavidTree]

@Selah @DavidTree @Jim @civic @FreeInChrist

Who is the man of sin? This is a question that generates a lot of strong opinions, but very little sound exegesis or emphasis on the actual text or context. In fact, the passage itself clearly identifies the protagonist as the man who is "of sin." There we have our answer, because this immediately makes it clear that God is referring to the sinful or lawless man who usurps God's authority in the temple/house of God. It is the man who has the spirit of antichrist, denying Christ as the supreme ruler of God's house.

There is absolutely no practical or Biblical evidence that the apostle is prophesying about the institution of the papacy in the Roman Catholic Church, Caligula's sins, Nero Caesar's persecution of Christians, Hitler's belief that through him the assembly could become the established church, Satan incarnate, or any of the other fanciful reiterations that permeate church lore.

Faithful and noble Berean Christians should ask themselves this question in order to faithfully understand the pertinent passages. "Are not interpretations under the divine auspices of God's word (Genesis 40:8; Genesis 41:15-16), and if they are then the answer that will bring knowledge and peace of mind to the faithful student of God's word will be found within God's word. The answers will not be found outside of it through our own conjecture, suppositions, or theories. What is the form of the sinful man of God's house, his stated behavior, his office, and his characteristics?

By considering these things in the light of Scripture we will be better equipped to identify who this lawless man that dares to sit and rule in God's house as if he were God. Through the study of God's word, we understand that the man of sin has always been lawless in the assembly and this has been recorded "down throughout history". The man of sin in God's assembly sought his own and asked for a false god in the wilderness to lead them (Exodus 32:1). The lawless man in God's house over two thousand years ago told Pilate to crucify Christ (John 19:6). They are those lawless leaders of a misguided and misgoverned people of God, and who corrupt the truth of God's word. They cause iniquity to increase in God's congregation by forsaking God's laws, thinking to govern by and for himself. They reject biblical doctrines for their own liken, so they can make them more acceptable to their blinded followers. That is effectively positioning himself as a sovereign ruler, negating righteous laws as if "he" himself reigned as God. From Biblical history we know that the man of sin "is nothing new" , (just will increase in great numbers toward the very end of this world) as he has rebelled against the government of God "throughout time",(just as Paul said, the mystery of iniquity doth already work! and has since Eden!) and always with the same mindset and spirit of the antichrist within him. We were once the man of sin, slavish children of the antichrist unto lawlessness. But now we are the man of God, children of obedience set free of God. It is a contrast between the man of lawlessness and the man of obedience (Ephesians 2:2). Likewise, the false ruler in God's house is the man of sin. (Much from Tony Warren's sermon/article on this subject that I read a few years ago) More on this later...

Just as you are doing, continue to allow all of Scripture to reside in your heart and mind.

Concerning the man of sin, dwell on this TRUTH:
a.) "Christ is the Head of His Body and His Body is trillions of members"

b.) Just as Christ is the Head of His Body so also is Satan the head of his members

c.) There will be a "man of sin" just as Satan entered Judas = SEE the king of Tyre/Eze ch28

d.) The "man of sin" will soon be revealed because his body(worldwide) is ready for him.

e.) He shall make an image unto the beast to give it power to speak = AI