civic
Active Member
This meaning the generation in the end prior to His 2nd Coming not this as in their generation
7 Reasons the church does not go through the great tribulation
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@pollard
See post #101
atpollard
Active Member
Thank you for proving my point.
A “LITERALIST” interpretation of apocalyptic literature requires TWO POSTS to explain a simple phrase like “this generation”.
dwight92070
Active Member
You're not looking very closely at all. 70 A.D. is referred to many times.
Matthew 24:2 " ... Do you see all these things? (the temple buildings) Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down."
Tell me, when did this prophecy of Jesus happen? Obviously it was 70 A.D. when the Roman general Titus led the seige of Jerusalem and leveled the temple and slaughtered over 1,000,000 Jews and took thousands of them who survived as slaves for themselves and even other countries.
Luke 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near." When did this prophecy of Jesus come to pass? It was the same event, the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Luke doesn't use the phrase "the abomination of desolation" as the other gospels do, but he is referring to the same event. His predominant Gentile audience did not understand the phrase "the abomination of desolation", so he literally told them what that was: "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near (that is the abomination of desolation)."
Matthew 22:7 - Here Jesus is giving the end of a parable but He is describing what He did to Jerusalem and the unbelieving Jews in 70 A.D. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies,(he used the Roman army) and destroyed those murderers (the Jews had murdered Jesus) and set their city on fire. (many fires were used to destroy Jerusalem and the temple)
There are more, but that should be sufficient to show you that 70 A.D. is referred to many times by Jesus Himself. He also said that "this generation shall not pass away until all these things take place." Matthew 24:34 He was speaking in about 30 A.D. and a generation is often considered to be 40 years, which means all the things in Matthew 24:1-34 happened by the end of 70 A.D. Then in verses 35-42, He appears to be speaking of His future 2nd Coming on the last day.
Victoria
Active Member
You cannot disprove something interpreted figuratively, was the point I was trying to convey by including some history to debunk that method of interpretation. Scripture is meant to be interpreted literally, unless otherwise specified in the scriptures alone. You cannot test the spirits whether they are of God, or search the scriptures daily to see whether these things are so, otherwise.
I couldn't agree more, which is why we shouldn't follow the teachings of man. The scriptures emphasize this.
The truth of the Word of God, or the figurative interpretation of God's Word through the lens of Augustine/man? Origen was the father of that interpretation method. So if it's figurative, anyone's truth can be the truth. That's private interpretation that Peter warns of in
2 Peter 1:20, regarding prophecy specifically.
At the end of the day, it's just different hermaneutics.
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Victoria
Active Member
Exactly! There's a huge difference between suffering persecution, which we were told we would (evidenced throughout church history), & wrath. The apostle Paul said we're not appointed to God's wrath. His wrath will be poured out upon a Christ-rejecting, ungodly world. If God were to pour His wrath out upon us, it'd be like pouring wrath out upon Jesus Christ a second time. We're members of Christs' body, kept hid w/ Christ in God
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory... For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:" Colossians 3:1-4; 6
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@Victoria
Nevertheless, we know that the scriptures, especially so bible prophecies are to be carefully compare by all scriptures, here a little, there a little before we can truly know we have the truth on whatever is under consideration. Jesus said these words:
What is Jesus saying? If you will receive what he was saying, then John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the coming of Elijah! How was it the fulfillment of that OT prophecy? John came in the same power and method that Elijah came in and preached with! Jesus was making a spiritual application to that OT prophecy. A method of interpretation that most would not accept, nor could even consider to be true.
The premill Golden Rule of Interpretation, which means: "When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary , ordinary, usual, literal meaning ~ which leaves them holding to many false interpretations of God's word. To them, Israel means the literal children of Abraham, and they reject the spiritual true seed of Jesus Christ are truly are the Israel of God to whom alone are the promises of God through Jesus Christ.
Why would any child of God not approach the book of Revelation with this mindset, knowing the highly symbolical language used therein? The word of God overall will help us to interpret such books by comparing the scripture with scriptures and allowing them to provide for us the true biblical interpretation, as we are commanded to do.
Victoria, I agree with this, we all approach God's word at face value, or else, we lose the means of communications with each other. If I say to you ~"the cow jumped over the moon" ~ and if the cow is not a cow and the moon is something other than the literal moon, there's no way of communication bewtween us.
Nevertheless, we know that the scriptures, especially so bible prophecies are to be carefully compare by all scriptures, here a little, there a little before we can truly know we have the truth on whatever is under consideration. Jesus said these words:
Matthew 11:12-14
“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”What is Jesus saying? If you will receive what he was saying, then John the Baptist was the fulfillment of the prophecy of the coming of Elijah! How was it the fulfillment of that OT prophecy? John came in the same power and method that Elijah came in and preached with! Jesus was making a spiritual application to that OT prophecy. A method of interpretation that most would not accept, nor could even consider to be true.
The premill Golden Rule of Interpretation, which means: "When the plain sense of scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary , ordinary, usual, literal meaning ~ which leaves them holding to many false interpretations of God's word. To them, Israel means the literal children of Abraham, and they reject the spiritual true seed of Jesus Christ are truly are the Israel of God to whom alone are the promises of God through Jesus Christ.
Why would any child of God not approach the book of Revelation with this mindset, knowing the highly symbolical language used therein? The word of God overall will help us to interpret such books by comparing the scripture with scriptures and allowing them to provide for us the true biblical interpretation, as we are commanded to do.
Isaiah 28:9.10
“Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:”@Victoria
Victoria, these are wonderful scriptures, which speaks of our security IN Christ knowing that our life is hid WITH Christ IN God, that's as secured as one can possibly be. But, another truth is here and it is this: Christ's coming is ALWAYS a revelation coming never a secret coming, "never"!
The wrath that shall be poured out will take place at Christ's second coming! When we are gathered together unto him, per 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-3
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”Colossians 3:3
“For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”Victoria, these are wonderful scriptures, which speaks of our security IN Christ knowing that our life is hid WITH Christ IN God, that's as secured as one can possibly be. But, another truth is here and it is this: Christ's coming is ALWAYS a revelation coming never a secret coming, "never"!
@Victoria
Victoria, while I agree with you that we must not interject our personal private interpretation on God's word, but seek from the scriptures God's intended meaning ~ yet what Peter is saying is that the holy scriptures do not have any man's private teaching within them, but all we have within the holy scriptures are "the very words of God himself" as holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
civic
Active Member
AmenExactly! There's a huge difference between suffering persecution, which we were told we would (evidenced throughout church history), & wrath. The apostle Paul said we're not appointed to God's wrath. His wrath will be poured out upon a Christ-rejecting, ungodly world. If God were to pour His wrath out upon us, it'd be like pouring wrath out upon Jesus Christ a second time. We're members of Christs' body, kept hid w/ Christ in God
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory... For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:" Colossians 3:1-4; 6
@dwight92070
Let me add this to what I said a day or so ago. Every child of God has a little of preterist in their teaching, and every child of God has a little Amill idealist in them, just not to the degree I would have in my teaching, but all have a little. I have much futurist in my teaching, just different than the premill school of thought.
Coming back to address this. Thanks for posting dwight, more is better.
Let me add this to what I said a day or so ago. Every child of God has a little of preterist in their teaching, and every child of God has a little Amill idealist in them, just not to the degree I would have in my teaching, but all have a little. I have much futurist in my teaching, just different than the premill school of thought.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Well, On this we agree... but what you posted above. NO.
Angelo
Active Member
The Elect are ones that get saved Jesus during the tribulation.
The elect can be saved during the tribulation, though interpretations vary. I think believers will be "raptured" before the tribulation begins, some believe that many elect individuals, both those who previously rejected Christ and others, will come to faith and be saved during this period. Scripture indicates that the tribulation will be shortened for the sake of the elect, protecting them from being utterly deceived, even if they are still on Earth. AI
Some believe Jesus' predictions about the horrors yet to come were fulfilled in AD 70, with the Roman siege and sacking of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15–20). However, in those events, the desolation of the temple came near the end, not at the beginning. And while the bloodshed was horrible, it was not an outlier for warfare of that era. As a result, some Bible teachers believe this to be true, while also holding that those events will be repeated on a larger scale at the end of the age.
A further problem for a complete, full, AD 70 interpretation is the transition from verse 20 to the statement Christ makes here. Taken in context, Jesus seems to be saying that the same days which involve the abomination (Matthew 24:15) and intense danger (Matthew 24:21) threaten to annihilate the entire human race. If Jesus is suddenly switching gears to speak of a different time, He gives no indication that the subject has changed.
Some scholars point to Daniel 12:1, suggesting that Jesus is speaking of Daniel's 1,260 days. This is three-and-a-half years and is often linked to the "great tribulation" Jesus mentioned (Matthew 24:21). Jesus is saying that the time of great suffering will be ended in order to spare those who belong to God and in order that some human beings should be saved. It seems best to read this as describing a period of great trouble that will come right at the end of the age before the return of Christ (Matthew 24:14) to the earth as Judge and King (Revelation 19:11–15). BibleRef
atpollard
Active Member
With respect to the AD 70 destruction of the Temple, I find it fascinating:
I just find the history of the events fascinating.
For me, the practical application when my wife is hospitalized and I find myself in a personal "tribulation" is a more useful benefit than "end time" speculation. If God did it then and promised EVERYTHING will end well (Rev 21), then HE will certainly get me through this.
- Jerusalem was besieged by Rome
- then the siege was briefly lifted as the Generals were recalled to Rome
- the Christians fled Jerusalem as they were warned
- Rome restored the siege and ultimately destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple.
I just find the history of the events fascinating.
For me, the practical application when my wife is hospitalized and I find myself in a personal "tribulation" is a more useful benefit than "end time" speculation. If God did it then and promised EVERYTHING will end well (Rev 21), then HE will certainly get me through this.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
OK, I absolute agree that some will come to faith during.
Jesus says this...""except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."
I guess our differences lay with me feeling all the elect will be at the mid point and you believe the Rapture will happen before.
That is problematic because I read things to be that the elect will be off earth but sshort of a 2nd rapture if there is a pre trib one... then at mid trib those believer here will need to stay.
I purposely stay away from much 70 AD interactions only because I am NOT a preterist or a partial preterist or a preterist wanna be. The end never fully happened then, and there were some of those "in the know" back then who were alive after.
I believe that the temple had to be destroyed to make way for prophesy of a new temple which still needs to be built for the anti-Christ to sit there....
Amos
Active Member
What's fascinating is after the Jewish diaspora they returned in 1948 after ww2 and they are still there even after the attempts to drive then into the sea.
www.history.com
history.state.gov
HISTORY
The HISTORY Channel - Geschichte erleben! The HISTORY Channel ist der deutschsprachige Pay-TV-Sender für spannende Dokumentationen und macht die Faszination von Menschen und Ereignissen täglich greifbar!
Milestones in the History of U.S. Foreign Relations - Office of the Historian
history.state.gov 3.0 shell
atpollard
Active Member
A subtle point, but some never left. There were some Jews living there during the Ottoman Empire (1566), that were still there when the British took over rule in 1920 [following the fall of the Ottoman Empire in WW1].
@101G @Jim @FreeInChrist @Victoria @civic @atpollard @dwight92070 @Amos @Selah @Angelo
Let us consider the Mark of the beast, or, his number for it is a number of a man void of the Spirit of God.
But "how" is it the number of man? Without a system we have chaos, and without biblical validation we have private interpretation. Thus we approach the Scriptures both systematically and reverentially in order to assure that we have God's view, rather than our own idea of what we think is God's view. God gives no other number with which to count six hundred, sixty-six with then what we have form the scriptures. So we immediately discern that we are simply to count that one number. But how do we count six hundred sixty-six alone. There really is only one way, which is use the Bible as our example and count it the way other numbers are counted in Scripture. We count it as a spiritual number. And since it obviously is not upon all, but only part of the whole are marked deceived of Satan to worship the image, we count it as part of the whole. In other words, we count it as a fraction (part of the whole number). Not surprisingly, it all leads us to the very same conclusion. To answer any objection, in context, counting as a fraction is Biblically justifiable because it is referring to a part of the whole. Or more specifically, the 666 refers to those who are to be cut off from the whole by reason of their being deceived (marked), of the beast. This in relationship to the part that God says will not be marked of the beast (The faithful of God), and whom we are told would be killed because of their faithfulness. So we have two fractions, or two parts. Those who will refuse to worship the beast and so be killed are numbered with God, one part. And those who worship the beast and receive his mark, are numbered with him as his part. So what is the number six hundred, sixty, and six "counted" as a fraction or as part of this whole? It breaks down to two thirds. And no surprise, this correlates perfectly with God's Word because in the Scriptures God uses the division of 1/3 to symbolize the truly Saved who are brought through the fire and refined of God, and 2/3 as those who are to be cut off from God. And these marked of the beast are those designated to forsake God and be deceived (cut off) of the beast.
An illustration of this spiritual division can be seen in the third part of the shekel that was to be used for the work of the Sanctuary, which illustrates the work of the believer justified in the work of Christ. Or in the prophesy of the coming Messiah, and man is numbered, we see Christ takes only the 'true believers' through the fire to cleanse them (Salvation), and we read that it was numbered 2/3 that were to be cut off. This is six hundred and sixty and six, counted as a fraction of the whole.
Zechariah 13:7-9
So, what is 2/3 of 100% 666!
Those who have the mark of a man void of the Spirit of God is seen by being in their forehead and in the right hand~what does this signify?
Forehead speak of their minds in wilily given themselves over to serve the beast, in doing his will, speaking his words in opposition to the will and word of God. Their right hand signifies in being in fellowship with false religion and the prophets serving the beast during this short season at the end of this world. Just as the apostles gave to Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship showing their agreement and their willingness working together for the kingdom of God.
Actually, if one truly thinks about this, we are all born with the mark of beast by nature, yet some (about 1/3, a small remnant) are saved from this ownership, and are adopted into the family of God by the will and mercy of God.
Let us consider the Mark of the beast, or, his number for it is a number of a man void of the Spirit of God.
"Count" The Number~666
We have heard many aspects of the beast that illustrate the significance of his number, but a truly sound exegesis is in the careful "cross checking and cross referencing" all of our conclusions, by continuing to compare Scripture with Scripture for total Biblical consistency throughout. The question is, how do we Biblically count this number? And are the results in total harmony and agreement with everything else that we've learned? Lest we forget, we were told that those who possess wisdom and understanding, should count or calculate the number of the beast. And the number to count was given as six hundred, sixty, and six, and declared to be, The Number of Man...void of the Spirit of God as we shall see.But "how" is it the number of man? Without a system we have chaos, and without biblical validation we have private interpretation. Thus we approach the Scriptures both systematically and reverentially in order to assure that we have God's view, rather than our own idea of what we think is God's view. God gives no other number with which to count six hundred, sixty-six with then what we have form the scriptures. So we immediately discern that we are simply to count that one number. But how do we count six hundred sixty-six alone. There really is only one way, which is use the Bible as our example and count it the way other numbers are counted in Scripture. We count it as a spiritual number. And since it obviously is not upon all, but only part of the whole are marked deceived of Satan to worship the image, we count it as part of the whole. In other words, we count it as a fraction (part of the whole number). Not surprisingly, it all leads us to the very same conclusion. To answer any objection, in context, counting as a fraction is Biblically justifiable because it is referring to a part of the whole. Or more specifically, the 666 refers to those who are to be cut off from the whole by reason of their being deceived (marked), of the beast. This in relationship to the part that God says will not be marked of the beast (The faithful of God), and whom we are told would be killed because of their faithfulness. So we have two fractions, or two parts. Those who will refuse to worship the beast and so be killed are numbered with God, one part. And those who worship the beast and receive his mark, are numbered with him as his part. So what is the number six hundred, sixty, and six "counted" as a fraction or as part of this whole? It breaks down to two thirds. And no surprise, this correlates perfectly with God's Word because in the Scriptures God uses the division of 1/3 to symbolize the truly Saved who are brought through the fire and refined of God, and 2/3 as those who are to be cut off from God. And these marked of the beast are those designated to forsake God and be deceived (cut off) of the beast.
An illustration of this spiritual division can be seen in the third part of the shekel that was to be used for the work of the Sanctuary, which illustrates the work of the believer justified in the work of Christ. Or in the prophesy of the coming Messiah, and man is numbered, we see Christ takes only the 'true believers' through the fire to cleanse them (Salvation), and we read that it was numbered 2/3 that were to be cut off. This is six hundred and sixty and six, counted as a fraction of the whole.
Zechariah 13:7-9
- "Awake, O Sword, against My Shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: Smite the Shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn Mine hand upon the little ones.
- And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, Two Parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third part shall be left therein.
- And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and try them as gold is tried: they shall call on My name, and I will hear them: I will say, it is My people: and they shall say, the Lord is My God."
So, what is 2/3 of 100% 666!
Those who have the mark of a man void of the Spirit of God is seen by being in their forehead and in the right hand~what does this signify?
Forehead speak of their minds in wilily given themselves over to serve the beast, in doing his will, speaking his words in opposition to the will and word of God. Their right hand signifies in being in fellowship with false religion and the prophets serving the beast during this short season at the end of this world. Just as the apostles gave to Paul and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship showing their agreement and their willingness working together for the kingdom of God.
Galatians 2:9
“And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.”Actually, if one truly thinks about this, we are all born with the mark of beast by nature, yet some (about 1/3, a small remnant) are saved from this ownership, and are adopted into the family of God by the will and mercy of God.
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Selah
Active Member
another paste job (sigh)
I never read these btw.
dwight92070
Active Member
Civic still has not proven that partial-preterism is heresy, even though he claimed that it was. This is what we call a "hit and run" debate tactic. You throw something against the wall, hoping that it will stick, but when someone comes along and takes down what you have thrown on the wall, by proving it was false - well then you run. Also I have given four examples of heretical teaching in dispensationalism in #93 and apparently no dispensationalist here can disprove any of those.
So we know that dispensationalism does have heretical teachings.
We also know that partial-preterism contains NO heresy, but presents what the church believed throughtout most of its history.
Now watch, some dispensationalist on this forum will post an article or a video, trying to disprove what I said. Where are the dispensationalists who have enough faith in what they believe, to present their own selected verses and their own interpretation, to supposedly show that dispensationalism is actually factual?
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