DavidTree
Active Member
My apology, i was very busy and did not read all that i should have from your post.
7 Reasons the church does not go through the great tribulation
- Thread starter civic
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Victoria
Active Member
The Body of Christ is not appointed to God's wrath "aka" the seven-year tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 5:9
Paul tells us our conversation is in heaven. Philippians 3:20; 2 Corinthians 5:1; Colossians 1:5
Jesus is presently sitting on the right hand of God the Father in heaven.
"If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:1-4
Continue in context...
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
John 5:28-29
First resurrection = The just to life. Revelation 20:6
Second resurrection = The unjust to damnation. Revelation 20:11-15
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Revelation 20:5
A literal, not spiritual, sitting upon David's throne following His future second coming, during His Millennium reign on the earth.
No scripture to refute his sermon? Red Baker, he's a brother much older in years, & not as mentally sharp as he used to be.
That doesn't make a pastor, who has been one for decades, insecure in what he believes.
Promise of Restoration
Ezekiel 11:16-20; Amos 9:11-15
Israel to Be Renewed for "His" Name's Sake [NOT Theirs]
Ezekiel 36:22-28
A New Covenant
Jeremiah 31:31-34; Hebrews 8:8-12
New Heavens and a New Earth
Isaiah 65:17-25; 2 Peter 3:10-16; Revelation 21
The book of Hosea is a discription of how God will remarry Israel in the end.
Here's a post I made on the topic: The Bride, The Lamb's Wife
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Victoria
Active Member
To expound a little more on my previous post...
The Body of Christ are members of His body. 1 Corinthians 12:27; Ephesians 5:30
Where there is neither Jew, 'nor Greek, male, 'nor female. Galatians 3:28
The Body of Christ in Ephesians 5 is referred to as "it", not her. Ephesians 5:25; 27
The apostle Paul said we are God's husbandry. 1 Corinthians 3:9
How then could we come to the conclusion that Jesus Christ will marry Himself?
We also have to take into consideration God's view on marriage/divorce.
"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Matthew 19:9
If God replaced Israel w/ the Body of Christ as His bride, He'd be guilty of committing adultery,
would He not? We have to be really careful b/c He isn't a God of double standards.
Victoria
Active Member
How could Israel be brought back into a marriage covenant without God violating His own law?
"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
Deuteronomy 24:4
"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?"
Romans 7:1
This helped me to understand a lot more behind His death, burial, & resurrection. He died for the sins of His people.
The Body of Christ is a mystery, was kept hid in God until he revealed it to the apostle Paul.
"Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
Deuteronomy 24:4
"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?"
Romans 7:1
This helped me to understand a lot more behind His death, burial, & resurrection. He died for the sins of His people.
The Body of Christ is a mystery, was kept hid in God until he revealed it to the apostle Paul.
@Victoria
I highlighted your first four words or so, for discussion. First, I'll be very limited on time today, and tomorrow, and probably Sunday, due to folks coming in to town to visit and a grandchild's birthday, one of the girls is turning thirteen and we want to take her out to wherever she desires to go for her birthday; she the youngest of the girls and almost the the youngest of 19, her little brother takes that crown barely.
I never said I believe in the replacement theory ~what I do believe and teach as Paul did is God is adding the Gentiles to the body of Christ, so making "both one" new man in Jesus Christ. Even in the OT, having more than one wife was not sinful, maybe not ideal, but not sinful. Blame Israel's unfaithfulness and sins, God did nothing wrong by turning to the Gentiles, actually we see the wisdom and knowledge of God for this this;.
Greetings Victoria,
I highlighted your first four words or so, for discussion. First, I'll be very limited on time today, and tomorrow, and probably Sunday, due to folks coming in to town to visit and a grandchild's birthday, one of the girls is turning thirteen and we want to take her out to wherever she desires to go for her birthday; she the youngest of the girls and almost the the youngest of 19, her little brother takes that crown barely.
I never said I believe in the replacement theory ~what I do believe and teach as Paul did is God is adding the Gentiles to the body of Christ, so making "both one" new man in Jesus Christ. Even in the OT, having more than one wife was not sinful, maybe not ideal, but not sinful. Blame Israel's unfaithfulness and sins, God did nothing wrong by turning to the Gentiles, actually we see the wisdom and knowledge of God for this this;.
Do we hear what Paul is saying? You tell me what you understand by these few verses or, @ciivc can, or any other sister or brother can. I'll be back later to give my thoughts, I must run now for an early appointment.
DavidTree
Active Member
Pre-Wrath rapture is PURE GOSPEL TRUTH
PRE-Wrath is NOT pre-trib
Pre-trib rapture is a absolute LIE sold to you from the false prophets
Please read 1 Thessalonians = ALL of it
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DavidTree
Active Member
Have you ever noticed the interaction between goats and sheep?
Goats and Sheep intermingle in on the farm but the goats boss the sheep around = just like those who preach pre-trib rapture
@Victoria
Again, God has never been separated from the children of his promises, never! Also, God has never cast away all of natural Israel since some of them in this dispensation are being called out of God, while many Gentiles are, a reversal of the OT, when mostly Jews were and a few Gentiles.
Victoria, the key of understanding this work of God is found in Romans eleven above.
I'll be back soon to post, just do not know how soon, and how much I can post today. I do not preach the replacement theory, I fully understand the purpose of both testaments. The Gentiles will do just as the OT Jews did when left to tehmseves! That men may know that salvation from sin and condemnation is ALL OF GRACE! Later....RB
Victoria,
Again, God has never been separated from the children of his promises, never! Also, God has never cast away all of natural Israel since some of them in this dispensation are being called out of God, while many Gentiles are, a reversal of the OT, when mostly Jews were and a few Gentiles.
Romans 11:1
“I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”Victoria, the key of understanding this work of God is found in Romans eleven above.
I'll be back soon to post, just do not know how soon, and how much I can post today. I do not preach the replacement theory, I fully understand the purpose of both testaments. The Gentiles will do just as the OT Jews did when left to tehmseves! That men may know that salvation from sin and condemnation is ALL OF GRACE! Later....RB
civic
Active Member
Romans 9-11 make it clear there are 2 different people groups and plans with God. Israel and the church. The tribulation is not for the church but for Israel. Then and only them will they ( the Jews/Israel ) look upon Him ( Jesus their Messiah) whom they have pierced and be saved and fulfill prophecy.
hope this helps !!!
FreeInChrist
Active Member
IMO ... it can all be summed up in one verse. Romans 11:32. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Should be self explanatory..... no?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
DavidTree
Active Member
Good Morning My Brother in Christ,
Follow the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = One Gospel since the Foundation of the world
Romans 9:1-5
I speak the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as confirmed by my conscience in the Holy Spirit. 2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the law, the temple worship, and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them proceeds the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen.
Key here for everyone = you MUST only speak the Truth in Christ!!! anything more is from the evil one
Romans 9:6-9
It is not as though God’s word has failed.
#1 -For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.
#2 - Nor because they are Abraham’s descendants are they all his children.
#3 - On the contrary, “Through Isaac your offspring will be reckoned.”
#4 - So it is not the children of the flesh/Jews who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.
One Plan of Salvation for the Jew as for the Gentile = this has never changed
Gentiles were invited into the OT covenant with the Israel/Jews from before the foundation of the world.
Gentiles were invited into the OT covenant with the IsraelJews from the very Beginning of the Law
Exodus 12:43-49
And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it.
But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it.
A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it.
In one house(one gospel) it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land/Israel.
For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.
One law/One truth shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”
Romans 9:22-29
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy,
which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As He says also in Hosea:
“I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved.”
“And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth.”
And as Isaiah said before:
“Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”
The Conclusion of Truth from the HOLY SPIRIT of Truth = Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? = @civic @Victoria @Red Baker
That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.
For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. As it is written:
“Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense,
And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
This is the undefiled Truth of Romans chapter 9 and we will continue into chapters 10 and 11
civic
Active Member
Keep reading Roman’s 11
The Remnant of Israel
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” ?
4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,
8 as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
9 And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.”
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry
14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.
15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.”
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?”
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.
DavidTree
Active Member
Romans ch9 ch10 ch11 only Speaks One Truth which is in Christ = for the Jew and the Gentile
Brother @civic, you began with chapter 9 so let's continue into ch10 and conclude with ch11
Romans ch10 = the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul does an amazing thing here in chapter 10
HE begins the chapter with the Conclusion of chapter 10 = "known to God before the world was"
Conclusion of Romans chapter 10 = 10:1-4
Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God = (same error that pre-trib rapture makes)
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
DavidTree
Active Member
Post 274 has been UPdated
FreeInChrist
Active Member
DavidTree
Active Member
From the Holy Scriptures of Truth in Romans chapter 11
v17 - some of the branches/Jews have been broken off, and you/Gentile, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
Gospel/Jesus/apostle Paul Says: the earthbound nation Israel is lost in SIN and have been removed from New Covenant Salvation as Promised/Prophesied thru OT Prophets Jeremiah and Isaiah and the LORD Jesus Christ
God's Faithfulness to Abraham is that HE always preserved a remnant of Jews unto Salvation = same as for the Gentiles
Romans 11:1-5: = So too, at the present time there is a remnant(of Jews) chosen by grace/Gospel
There is only One TREE of LIFE = CHRIST = Romans 11:23-24
And if they(Jews/Israel of the flesh) do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature/Gentiles, and contrary to nature/OT&NT were grafted into a cultivated olive tree/CHRIST,
how much more readily will these, the natural branches/Jews, be grafted into their own olive tree/CHRIST!
Romans ch11 rebukes the lie of 'dispensationalism/pre-trib'
v26 and v27 = in this Way all Israel will be saved.
As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion = Second Coming of Christ
HE/Christ will turn godlessness away from Jacob = Matthew 23:37-39
And this is my covenant with them/Jews/Israel of the flesh when I take away their sins.” = Zechariah 13:6-9, Zech 14:1-5 , Isaiah 25:9
SHALOM
dwight92070
Active Member
You said in #247 that you would continue to resist the following:
In essentials unity
In non essentials liberty
In all things charity
Why would you resist these?
civic
Active Member
I affirm them not resist them
dwight92070
Active Member
Here's some interesting information, showing that Amillennialism goes all the way back to the early church.
To understand the historical belief in amillennialism within the church, consider the following points:
To understand the historical belief in amillennialism within the church, consider the following points:
- Amillennialism emerged as a significant theological perspective in the early church.
- By the 3rd century, various church fathers began to articulate views aligning with amillennialism.
- The majority of early church leaders, including Augustine, supported amillennial interpretations.
- Amillennialism became more prominent as the church moved away from premillennial expectations.
- Throughout the Middle Ages, amillennialism was widely accepted in Catholic theology.
- The Reformation saw a resurgence of amillennial thought among
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