7 Reasons the church does not go through the great tribulation

Philadelphia church = no pre-trib rapture promised

JESUS did promise to "KEEP" them from the hour of trial.

The "hour of trial" is the testing of our faith under the duress of severe persecution and death!

Take NOTICE of the Correlation of TRUTH from JESUS - John ch17
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name.
Those whom You gave Me I have kept;

I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

This is the promise that JESUS spoke to the Philadelphia church.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
The Philadelphian Church who whole-heartedly abide in Christ are saved from the GT. They do not have to prove their faith and overcome their willful sins. Whether that means they are raptured or kept safe by God throughout the GT, only time will tell. Personally, I believe in those who are alive and remain until the second coming which makes me post-Trib. But I can still teach truth that will be accepted by Pre-Tribbers. Abiding IN Jesus is key either way.
 
I'll address your post later, after I finish a small project I'm on.

Doug, let me ask you these questions: Would you go to a local body of believers who teach premill and live and die by those teachings and "silence you" on what you believe to be the truth? Or to a church where they teach full preterism? How about a church who teach election of grace over works like I believe and teach? Or, simply put ~ who teach a few things you do not believe in and tell you you are welcome to come and support us, but kept your doctrine to yourself and accept what we teach, or go somewhere else.

Trust me, I know I'm a sinner with many shortcomings, yet we are commanded to be faithful with what God has been pleased to allow us to have, and not to hide our talents under a bushel, fearing of not having a place to worship at. Doug, it is very easy to keep silence and say nothing to just get along and be accepted. No one likes to be alone, we loved having flesh and blood around us and to accept us as their friend, yet we as Christians cannot have both in many cases, it would be rare, since most do not love the truth, only a few do and they are rare to find.
This is Dwight speaking. Agreed, that a good church is hard to find, but we must keep looking, if for some reason we can't start one ourselves. Have you tried any homechurches? We live in Denver and we have been in the same homechurch for 24 years.

We meet in the pastor's home. The pastor's wife plays the guitar and leads us in worship, and she really does a good job. Many of our worship times have literally been glorious, lifting up our hearts in worship. Many times I have led a song that I wanted to share with everyone, and the pastor and his wife are very gracious and always allow me to do that. Others are welcome to do the same. I do not play an instrument, so we sing it acapella.
Then after about 20-30 minutes of worship, our pastor has a sermon, which usually also lasts about 30 minutes, give or take 5-10 minutes. He usually brings a different Bible topic or a different theme each week. We are allowed to raise our hand and either make a comment that relates to the message, or ask a question for clarification. Then again, after he is done with his message, he opens it up to comments or questions.

What I have learned here is: If I ask a question, it should not be a question that disrupts the flow of his message - or even a question that challenges his doctrinal beliefs, which could easily lead to an argument. Also some questions require a long drawn out answer, so the pastor kindly says: "Let's discuss that after our service." If I disagree with something that he said, which happened often when we first started there, I have learned to bring that up either after church or to call him or meet with him during the week. The key is NOT to shame or embarrass him or even firmly challenge him, when he is presenting his message.

Over the years, I have also brought a teaching for the church many times. I simply ask him if I could present a teaching and he asks me what my topic is, and every time I have asked, he has said 'yes'. Then he tells me which Sunday would be best for me to teach. Again, I try to NOT choose a topic that I know he and I disagree on. Keeping the love and unity of the Spirit is key, even though we disagree on some issues.

For example, along with pastoring homechurch, he has been a street preacher probably longer than he has led homechurch - and at the age of 68, he still preaches at concert venues, after football games and baseball games, both in downtown Denver and on college campus'. For years, I would go with him and another brother and we would all preach in the open air.
However, several years ago, I came to believe that open air preaching was not Biblical, so I stopped. Even though we disagree with each other on this, we remain good friends and brothers in Christ.

Each Sunday after church, we enjoy a potluck lunch in the pastor's home. That is the time when we feel free to discuss just about anything, even bringing up questions about the sermon in a gracious way, always trying to avoid angry arguments, etc. Some people have to leave, but many will stay and we will discuss ANY topic, political, Bible, current events, doctrines, etc. We have been known to talk for over 3 hours. Almost always there are some who have Bible questions, so at least three of us, sometimes four, have been able to answer most questions.
The bottom line is that we have discussed just about every Bible topic and/or Christian life topic you can think of, with the freedom to disagree, as long as we do it agreeably, and remain friends and brothers and sisters afterwards. In all those 24 years, we have had to ask one single man to leave and not return, which he has not. He had some outbursts of anger and condemnation, particularly toward the pastor, even though the pastor made every effort to help him over several years.

All in all, homechurch has been one of the greatest blessings in our lives. May God lead you to the same!
 
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The Philadelphian Church who whole-heartedly abide in Christ are saved from the GT. They do not have to prove their faith and overcome their willful sins. Whether that means they are raptured or kept safe by God throughout the GT, only time will tell. Personally, I believe in those who are alive and remain until the second coming which makes me post-Trib. But I can still teach truth that will be accepted by Pre-Tribbers. Abiding IN Jesus is key either way.
Abiding IN Jesus is key either way.
AMEN

All who are in Christ, walking in the Spirit, are SAVED before/during/after the GT.

God holds in the HIGHEST regard His saints whose blood is shed for their Witness and Testimony and Faith in Christ.

What shall I render to the Lord
For all His benefits toward me?
I will take up the cup of salvation,
And call upon the name of the Lord.
I will pay my vows to the Lord
Now in the presence of all His people.
Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His saints. -
Psalm 116:12-15

Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. -
Matt 23:35

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. - Revelation 6:9-11

SHALOM my Sister in CHRIST
 
As a newer believer, allow me to state something obviously apparent in my views and perception of both sides of these arguments. There are significantly more undertones of arrogance, elitism and intellectual bullying from one camp versus the other. Which one, is for everyone to decide or discard. Just saying, from the mouth of babes...where's the heart and love of Christ in every word? Arguing and put downs are not love, wreak of the flesh, and nothing different from the rage bait we see in this world. Further, coming from a person with multiple PhD's in the studies of "the world," trust me when I tell you that those notes and undertones are repulsive to the unbeliever and a dripping faucet for the believer. We're better, set apart, and can do better. Let's practice amd start now.

All things aside, I love how you formulated a comprehensive defense and value your input and investment. Thank you Victoria.
Welcome to the Body of Christ, Jesse! And thank you for such encouraging words. I put certain phrases w/in the verse in bold for emphasis. I just hope it doesn't come across as arrogance on my end, which is something that I abhor myself. I once had an ex w/ strong Cerebral Narcissistic traits. For being a new believer in Christ, what a power rebuke! I have to commend you for that 🙏

Looking forward to seeing your posts! :)
 
As a newer believer, allow me to state something obviously apparent in my views and perception of both sides of these arguments. There are significantly more undertones of arrogance, elitism and intellectual bullying from one camp versus the other. Which one, is for everyone to decide or discard. Just saying, from the mouth of babes...where's the heart and love of Christ in every word? Arguing and put downs are not love, wreak of the flesh, and nothing different from the rage bait we see in this world. Further, coming from a person with multiple PhD's in the studies of "the world," trust me when I tell you that those notes and undertones are repulsive to the unbeliever and a dripping faucet for the believer. We're better, set apart, and can do better. Let's practice amd start now.

All things aside, I love how you formulated a comprehensive defense and value your input and investment. Thank you Victoria.
Who is bullying who???

Very important to know.
 
I'll be away from this thread for most of the day, since I'm reading and listening to all of what you sent to me, so I would know exactly all what you believe to allow me to be better equip to address your post. I should and do appreciate your zeal for what you do believe, thus far.

So, let me get caught up to speed on who you are and what you do believe, before we continue to post back and forth. Are you a member of the church in Michigan?
Thank you, Red Baker, for the encouraging words on my zeal for what I believe.
Sure! I'd also like to know more on what you believe, & why.

I'm in PA, actually. Unfortunately, there are no local churches in my area that believe what I believe. I briefly attended a Calvary Baptist church, back when I was a babe in Christ, hearing that baptists come closest to the truth. The pastor didn't like that I use a KJB (was puzzled), wanted me to switch to the ESV, or NASB. I've since decided to keep my distance, spent a year familiarizing myself w/ God's Word, & eventually found the right Bible teacher online that has helped clear up any confusion I had (i.e. law? grace? etc.). Once I learned how to rightly divide, the Bible came to life even more for me.

At the end of the day, we may learn that we have different heumenutics, which is okay. Who Jesus Christ is, & what He's accomplished for us at the cross of Calvary, is what matters most, right? 🙏
 
Matthew 24:16 references those who flee from Judea during the tribulation. Where is Judea? Would you say this is Jewish in context?
Where is Judea? right here on earth as everyone else. because, Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." if the day are shorten for the elect sake.... then the elect are still here on earth..... next.

101G.
 
Where is Judea? right here on earth as everyone else. because, Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." if the day are shorten for the elect sake.... then the elect are still here on earth..... next.

101G.
The elect are the Jews :)
 
Reason #1: The Tribulation is Jewish in Context
Everything Scripture says about the tribulation is Jewish in context, teaching, words and symbols. The body of believers is not mentioned in context of experiencing the tribulation…only Jews. For example, consider Matthew 24:15-22:

  • The “abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel” is clearly a reference to the Jewish prophet Daniel who prophesied the 7 year tribulation. At the mid-point of the 7 years, the Antichrist will enter the temple and demand to be worshiped for the remaining 3.5 years of the tribulation. That is what Daniel refers to as the “abomination of desolation.” (Daniel 9:24-27) Would you say that passage is Jewish in context?
  • Matthew 24:16 references those who flee from Judea during the tribulation. Where is Judea? Would you say this is Jewish in context?
  • In verse 20 of that chapter there is concern about having to flee on the Sabbath. Would you say that is Jewish in context?
Jeremiah 30:7, 11 reference the tribulation. Do you find Jewish context in those verses? Verse 7 hint: Jacob was the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, and his name was changed. Do you know the new name he was given? (Genesis 32:28) The tribulation is called “the time of Jacob’s trouble” because God will deal solely with Israel, to bring them to repentance. Verse 11 hint: who will the Lord save after having been scattered?

Read Joel 3:12-17 and Isaiah 26:19-21carefully.

  • Who is the Lord protecting in these verses?
  • Are you aware of any verses in the Bible that indicate the Lord protects the church (Christians) during the tribulation?
  • If you do not know of any such verses, why do you believe there is no reason for the Lord to protect the church during that time?
Though the Jewish people once rejected Jesus as Messiah (Matthew 23:37-39), the day will come when the veil is lifted from their eyes and all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26). That is the tribulation. The context is always Jewish and the church is never mentioned in regard to the tribulation.


Reason #2: There are other Historical, Biblical Parallels in which God Removed People from Judgment
1 Thessalonians 1:10 tells us that Jesus will rescue us from the day of wrath. But why would God do that? Has He ever done it before?

The answer is yes, He has rescued others from wrath because of His righteousness and favor. Consider these examples:

  • Enoch. Enoch lived during the time leading up to Noah. He saw the sin on the earth and understood the ungodliness happening. Still, Jude 1:14-15indicates that Enoch prophesied of the Lord’s coming with ten thousand of His saints! He knew Jesus was coming back, and he sounded the alarm! What happened to Enoch because of his faithfulness and God’s goodness? (Genesis 5:24) What do you think it means when the verse says, “God took him?”
  • Noah. You know the account of Noah…what did he do, and why did he do it? Yet, God removed Noah and his family from judgment. See Genesis 7:16. Luke 17:26-27 tell us that, just as in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man (last days).
  • Lot. While you’re in Luke 17, move on to verses 28-29. Lot was also in the midst of great evil in Sodom and Gomorrah, but again, God spared Lot from judgment.
  • Rahab. The gentile harlot was redeemed by the scarlet red cord. Read Joshua 6:15-18. You may recognize this as Joshua’s conquest of Jericho, but did you know a prostitute and her family were saved from judgment?
You see, it is not unusual for God to save from judgment those who belong to Him! There is no need for the body of Christ to go through the tribulation. Why would any Bridegroom put His bride through that? He will save us from the day of wrath! That is the second reason the church will not go through the tribulation!

You’ve done good work today as we uncovered 2 of the 7 reasons the church will not go through the tribulation! Bible study friends, I want you to know there is plenty of evidence in God’s Word assuring us we will not go through the tribulation.
I guess this will just always be an argument since the Bible doesn't explicitly say one way or the other if the church in general goes through a "great tribulation" (GT) but your opening argument “The tribulation is Jewish in context… therefore the church will not go through the tribulation..." is called a non sequitur. You want to prove the church doesn't go through the GT, I get that, but the tribulation being Jewish in context doesn't automatically rule out the church by exclusion. It would be like saying Muslims and Buddhists won't go through the GT just because they aren't mentioned. So that reasoning doesn't work good. I pointed this out right way to show how your premise is a bit faulty. I am sure you will have a better write-up next time.

I would recommend you read Matthew 24:29-31. It seems pretty explicit and is set right in the context of the things you're talking about. That would make the rapture (of the church) a post-tribulational event, meaning that the church will go through it.
 
The elect are the Jews :)

The unredeemed Jewish nation/Israel remain the 'elect' of God amongst all the other unredeemed nations on earth.
Concerning the FLESH, they were the only nation chosen by God amongst the FLESH nations on earth.

Then Jews rebelled against their own election in Christ for they had Him murdered.

As a result of their uniting with the god of this world, JESUS gave the Kingdom to another nation = Matthew chapter 21:43

All who are in Christ are God's elect = John 15:16 , 1 Peter ch1, Romans, Colossians, Ephesians
You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples(Bride of Christ) came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: = those in Christ are the elect of God
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:


Romans/Apostle Paul speaking to the elect/christians
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Christ up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

Colossians 3:12 Apostle Paul speaking to christians
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another,

All who are in Christ are God's Elect = Ephesians ch1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
 
The elect are the Jews :)
What you SAY, so only the Gentiles in christ are the only one's raptured then?, ...let's see, Colossians 3:10 "And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:" Colossians 3:11 "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Colossians 3:12 "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"

another Gentile ELECT, Romans 16:13 "Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine."
Rufus: ... and the term "Chosen" here,
Chosen: G1588 ἐκλεκτός eklektos (ek-lek-tos') adj.
1. select.
2. (by implication) favorite.
[from G1586]
KJV: chosen, elect
Root(s): G1586

is Rufus jewish? .... want to try again?

101G
 
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@dwight92070
All in all, homechurch has been one of the greatest blessings in our lives. May God lead you to the same!
Thank you brother for sharing, I would like to comment on a few things you said, most which we will agree with ~but, only by your permission will I do so.

Btw, we have been part of home churches for a few years off and one, due to death etc. I'm attending a group this coming week that call me and asked me to come ~@3 Resurrection knows some of them, around sixty some folks that split from a group we both were part of back in the mid eighties early nineties.

RB
 
Incorrect if... your interpretation method is unorthodox. God's wrath demands justice on a Christ-rejecting, ungodly world.
That's the God I know, & worship. It's in all of us to demand justice wherever there's injustice. We get that from God.
You said:
Victoria said:
Consider this... every believer at that time was well aware that there would be future tribulation, 2nd coming, 1st resurrection, & the millennium reign of Christ on the earth, correct?
Victoria, yes the church was taught by the apostles of a future coming of many antichrist, the likes the world has never seen, per Daniel, Christ, etc. To what degree every believers was aware of this is questionable, since most biblical truths/teachings go right over the head of most. They were taught of one more visible/revelation coming of Christ, no secret coming of him. The first resurrection was a spiritual in nature per Jesus Christ and takes place when one is born of the Spirit of God. All who are partakers of this resurrection, the second death has no power over them.

John 5:25​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Revelation 20:6​

“Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

This reign started when Christ was exalted to David's Throne at his resurrection from the dead.

Acts 2:30,31​

“Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”

1 Corinthians 15:24,25​

“Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.”

Jesus Christ is NOW on David's spiritual throne and will be until the second resurrection, when all that are in the graves shall come forth, and THEN we shall enter into the new earth, heaven, our eternal resting place with our Lord Jesus. In spite of what you ahve been taught, the Jews and Gentiles are ONE holy spiritual temple for the Spirit of God to dwell in for all eternity! We BOTH are the body and bride of Jesus Christ, you have been taught incorrect.

I listened to the gentleman on the video that you posted ~ he was very insecure in what he believe as he stumbled through his message trying to deny that the Church (Jews and Gentiles are NOT the bride of Christ, as he try desperately to separate Jews from Gentiles and to make them God's chosen people, he was weak and very unsure of what he thought he saw. Maybe he was sincere, but sincerely wrong.
 
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the church was taught by the apostles of a future coming of many antichrist
Yes, many antichrists, but only one Antichrist, the devil. —selah

Hebrews 2:14 (KJV) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
 
I'm in PA, actually.
So, in Pa, I know a gentleman there, though not close to him, yet we have spoken back forth via email. His name is Tony Warren, he seems to be very goldy, without question a student of the scriptures. He has a forum, not sure if he still on it alot, since I have not visited it in around two years or so, about the time Tony begin to post less, yet I would think he still does some. I have heard that the site is not the same as when Mr. Warren ran it 100%. https://www.mountainretreatorg.net/

He's very gifted, we disagree on a few things, which is no big deal. He's a black gentleman which is something we see very little of on Christian's chat rooms. He can debate with the best of them, I know. I think he's from around Phil., Pa.
 
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@FreeInChrist @DavidTree
You are not asking me, but come on... David, surly you know.
I think he was referring to @dwight92070, (following each post back and see) if so, then he did not hear Dwight out totally, and passed a quick judgment on him, which is really doing exactly what he is speaking against. Dwight is a godly man, seems to love and fear God.
 
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