praise_yeshua
Active Member
Can I answer?
Repentance is the last step in the "Order of Salvation". Not the first.
Does that change the way you see salvation at all?
Yes, Calvinists—free will IS in the Bible.
- Thread starter Diserner
- Start date
Can I answer?
Repentance is the last step in the "Order of Salvation". Not the first.
Does that change the way you see salvation at all?
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Strawman alert
Exactly. Esau sought repentance with tears and never found it.
brightfame52
Active Member
And this spiritual act pleasing to God was done in the flesh since they werent born again and didnt have the Spirit, in opposition to Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
civic
Active Member
Belief precedes life, eternal life, new birth, born again , regeneration, salvation etc …..
Ezekiel 18:30-32
“Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Notice what comes first
1- Repent , turn away from sin
2- the after you repent you get a new heart/spirit ( calvinism- regeneration, new life)
3- repent then you live, have life- ie new heart, spirit.
John has the same order in in his opening of the gospel and in his purpose statement for writing his gospel.
John 1:12-13
“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Same order as above receive, believe, call on Him then the new birth follows.
John 20:31
“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Once again the order is consistent with the OT- belief/repentance precedes life.
Romans 10:8-13
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Again above we see its hearing the gospel, believing the message , confessing then calling upon the Lord results in salvation.
Acts tells us the same order in 11:18- "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life.” Repent precedes life.
Paul confirms the order in Ephesians below as well. Hearing and believing precedes the Holy Spirit that we were sealed with not before belief.
Ephesians 1:13
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit
James and Peter have the same exact order in James 1:18 , 1 Peter 1:23.
Jesus also taught that a persons faith comes before they are healed or saved. The saving/healing doesn't come before faith. Calvinism has it just the opposite.
Here is how some would rewrite Jesus words below and add to scripture things that were never said nor implied.
Parenthesis is Calvinism false assertion below that God gives faith. Jesus said it was THEIR faith that saved them.
Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith ( I have given you )hath saved thee; go in peace.
Luke 8:48
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith ( I have given you )has healed you. Go in peace."
Luke 17:19
Then Jesus said to him, "Rise and go; your faith( I have given you ) has made you well!"
Luke 18:42
"Receive your sight!" Jesus replied. "Your faith( I have give you ) has healed you."
Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those following Him, "Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Matthew 8:13
Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! As you have believed, so will it be done for you." And his servant was healed at that very hour.
Matthew 9:2
Just then some men brought to Him a paralytic lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.
Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. "Take courage, daughter," He said, "your faith has healed you." And the woman was cured from that very hour.
Matthew 9:29
Then He touched their eyes and said, "According to your faith will it be done to you."
Matthew 15:28
"O woman," Jesus answered, "your faith is great! Let it be done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Mark 5:34
"Daughter," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be free of your affliction."
Mark 10:52
"Go," said Jesus, "your faith has healed you." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.
John 4:53
So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house.
See how scripture is consistent when you do not read your doctrine into it but read it objectively, without bias ?
Calvinism has it backwards with life,regeneration, the new birth preceding faith.
conclusion: as we read in these SALVIFIC passages there is a consistent order.
1- hearing the word, the gospel
2- believing the gospel
3- receiving the gospel
4- calling upon the Lord
5- confessing Jesus is Lord
6- resulting in the new birth, born of God, salvation, eternal life
hope this helps !!!
@brightfame52
This one scripture should tell folks that there is no such thing as "freewill", or a love for spiritual things, God etc. ~ before being born of the Spirit of God.
Titus 3:3
“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.”
That's what in the flesh of every man, even after he is born of God, the old man is still there, but under the power of the new man, is the only difference.
Even more than that, Paul said:
Romans 7:18
“For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.”This one scripture should tell folks that there is no such thing as "freewill", or a love for spiritual things, God etc. ~ before being born of the Spirit of God.
Titus 3:3
“For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.”
That's what in the flesh of every man, even after he is born of God, the old man is still there, but under the power of the new man, is the only difference.
@civic
Later I will answer this, no problem. It might be tomorrow, since I need to run on a short errand.
brightfame52
Active Member
Those Christ died for, He purged their sins away Heb 1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high
He took away the sins of them He died for, sin cannot be their ruin 1 Jn 3:5
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
And He gives them a New Heart and Spirit Ezk 36:26-27
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 ;And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Sorry, but stating one must believe says nothing whatsoever about one perfectly doing acts the children of God cannot do perfectly.
The issue was the prodigal son being dead to the father and then being made alive
And you are dealing with the fact the man was able to return to his father and was pronounced as going from death to life?
Speculator
Active Member
People like myself who uphold free will often argue that the giving of a command implies the ability to obey it, and so freedom of choice.
Therefore thus says the Lord [to Jeremiah]: If you return [and give up this mistaken tone of distrust and despair], then I will give you again a settled place of quiet and safety, and you will be My minister; and if you separate the precious from the vile [cleansing your own heart from unworthy and unwarranted suspicions concerning God’s faithfulness], you shall be My mouthpiece. [But do not yield to them.] Let them return to you—not you to [the people].
Jeremiah 15:19
Therefore thus says the Lord [to Jeremiah]: If you return [and give up this mistaken tone of distrust and despair], then I will give you again a settled place of quiet and safety, and you will be My minister; and if you separate the precious from the vile [cleansing your own heart from unworthy and unwarranted suspicions concerning God’s faithfulness], you shall be My mouthpiece. [But do not yield to them.] Let them return to you—not you to [the people].
Jeremiah 15:19
Alive
Active Member
Calvinism will do that to you if you get to full of it.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
Adam and Eve didn't die. They heard the voice of God. They would yet die in the future. There was hope for Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve both were not gifted with Eternal life. They had no innate qualties of Eternal life.
This concept you believe in is just "make believe". Death is real but how you're trying to establish this "spiritual death" is preposterous. It is a product of Augustine and ultimately this "Reformation" that never took place in the hearts of men.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I would disagree that giving a command implies ability. I did/do the same things to my children. I tell them something to do that they could NEVER accomplish without me.
When they try, they fail WITHOUT ME.
Such things create and foster relationships. Bonds. It humbles the participants.
Alive
Active Member
Your right, we need God to help us obey His commands. I do acknowledge that the law works in some people a sense of need for God’s help. Furthermore, the law provides a revelation of the character of God and his ideal design for human behavior.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
I can accept most of this but I disagree with the context of the "law" reveals the character of God completely. The Holy Spirit does this. At times the law does reveal some aspects of the character of God and at times it reveals us.
Sometimes the law actually reveals the character of evil. The "shall nots" actually impart knowledge of the ability to perform evil. I realized this a long time ago and what Paul said in
Rom 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.
Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
Rom 7:10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
Just made complete sense to me.
To the innocent, the very law we give or even God gave brings about the knowledge of acting contrarily to God purpose. I had a person tell me one time. "I didn't even know you could do that" when we were having a conversation about "laws".
It just "clicked" at that very moment for me. The Spirit of God spoke to me and I remembered these words. It changed how I viewed the purpose of any and all laws in that moment for me.
Another issue, laws often reflect our own bias. They are "mirrors" revealing our own intent. For example, I often reference.....
Exo 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.
When a person reads these words, they must ask....... Is such really worthy of death? Would you kill your own children for cursing you or would you "long suffer" their ways hoping they would learn the errors of their ways?
There is a reason that John said "The law came by Moses BUT Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ.
Let reference one more verse that might give everyone a different perspective here......
Luk 11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Greatest gift EVER.... Even evil men can see the better outcome here....
Believers get the Spirit
John 7:38–39 (NASB95) — 38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
As for Hebrews
Hebrews 4:1–3 (LEB) — 1 Therefore let us fear, while there remains a promise of entering into his rest, that none of you appear to fall short of it. 2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as those also did, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who heard it in faith. 3 For we who have believed enter into rest, just as he has said, “As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’ ” And yet these works have been accomplished from the foundation of the world.
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