"Works Salvation"

[brightfame52]

Again Cornelius was unregenerate not yet having been granted life, yet he pleased God

so your assumption that the unregenerate must always be in the flesh is mistaken

Cornelius was regenerate, for he had a heart that feared God, which the unregenerate dont have or do Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

However the text stated clearly that Cornelius feared God Acts 10:2

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

So he was regenerated with a new heart that fears God, because if he was not regenerated he would have no fear of God before his eyes.

 

[civic]

Man by nature in the flesh, carnal, unregenerate cannot please God, thats not an assumption but fact. Look Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Do you believe the unregenerate are in the flesh ?

Do you still sin ? yes or no

Then you are no different than the reprobate who sins. God has made no difference in your life. Sin does not please God.

Are " believers" in the flesh ? yes or no

 

[brightfame52]

Do you still sin ? yes or no

Then you are no different than the reprobate who sins. God has made no difference in your life. Sin does not please God.

Are " believers" in the flesh ? yes or no

This has nothing to do with whether I sin or not.

 

[civic]

This has nothing to do with whether I sin or not.

sure it does lol.

 

[brightfame52]

sure it does lol.

If you say so.

 

[TomL]

Cornelius was regenerate, for he had a heart that feared God, which the unregenerate dont have or do Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

However the text stated clearly that Cornelius feared God Acts 10:2

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

So he was regenerated with a new heart that fears God, because if he was not regenerated he would have no fear of God before his eyes.

No Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved

Acts 11:14 (ESV) — 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

and not yet having received life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

had not yet received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

without which one does not belong to Christ

Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

and not being in Christ he cannot have life

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

No life no regeneration

Cornelius was not yet regenerate

 

[TomL]

Man by nature in the flesh, carnal, unregenerate cannot please God, thats not an assumption but fact. Look Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Do you believe the unregenerate are in the flesh ?

You assume man is always controlled by the flesh

It's an assumption

Rahab was a prostitute yet she pleased God

Cornelius was unregenerate, not having known Christ

Man cannot please God by keeping the law, but he can by faith

 

[brightfame52]

No Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved

Acts 11:14 (ESV) — 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

and not yet having received life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

had not yet received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

without which one does not belong to Christ

Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

and not being in Christ he cannot have life

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

No life no regeneration

Cornelius was not yet regenerate

Yes he was regenerate, he feared God.

 

[TomL]

Yes he was regenerate, he feared God.

You ignored my argument and the scripture supporting

No Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved

Acts 11:14 (ESV) — 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

and not yet having received life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

had not yet received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

without which one does not belong to Christ

Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

and not being in Christ he cannot have life

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

No life no regeneration

Cornelius was not yet regenerate

and nowhere is it stated if you fear God you are regenerate.

Psalm 25:14 (NIV) — 14 The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.

Men fear him even previous to knowing his covenant

 

[dwight92070]

Cornelius was regenerate, for he had a heart that feared God, which the unregenerate dont have or do Rom 3:18

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

However the text stated clearly that Cornelius feared God Acts 10:2

A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

So he was regenerated with a new heart that fears God, because if he was not regenerated he would have no fear of God before his eyes.

If Cornelius was regenerate, then he would have had no need to call Peter to hear the gospel.

 

[TomL]

If Cornelius was regenerate, then he would have had no need to call Peter to hear the gospel.

Exactly. He was not regenerate

 

[Doug Brents]

Lets see I stated

Repentance is sufficient for remission of sin as is faith

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The gentiles were granted life and had their hearts purified by faith apart from water baptism

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

received the holy Spirit

Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

had repentance unto life

Acts 15:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

They were given the Spirit and had their heart purified by faith

The spirit is received through faith

Galatians 3:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Ephesians 3:17 (ESV) — 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

None of your verses state if you are not baptized you cannot be granted life or have your heart purified by faith

That is the fallacy of negative inference. Verses after verse can be shown men are saved upon faith

and it denies the verses posted above and a multiplicity of verses which show we are saved upon faith

John 3:14–15 (ESV) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 (ESV) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 5:25 (ESV) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 6:51 (ESV) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

John 6:53 (ESV) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

you falsify all those verses

While those who believe both sets falsify none

There is your error

Of course those who believe and are baptized are saved for all who believe are saved


of course those who repent and are baptized receive remission of sin for repentance grants remission of sin as does faith

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

you have to falsify this verse to hold your view

No, I do not "falsify" any Scripture to hold my view. I require that ALL Scripture be supported and considered.
1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism in water.
Col 2:11-14 says that it is during baptism that our sins are removed.
Rom 6:1-4 says that it is during baptism that we are made new creations.
John 3:5 says that if we are not born of water and the Spirit then we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
These must also be as equally true as the passages you cite above. If they are not, then there is error in Scripture, and none of it can be trusted.
Every passage that points to belief or faith encompasses in those terms everything that any other Scripture says leads to receiving salvation.
As I have pointed out elsewhere, consider the plaque on the cross bearing the accusation against Jesus:
Matt 27:37 – “And they (the soldiers who crucified Christ) put up over His head the accusation written against Him:
THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.“
Mark 15:26 – “And the inscription of His accusation was written above:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
Luke 23:38 – “… an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
John 19:19 – “Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.“
Now, let me ask you, does John's account invalidate Mark's account (or vice-versa)? No. They are both equally correct, but John is more complete. Is Matthew wrong since he does not indicate that there were three languages used? No. His audience did not need to know that bit of information.
There are many passages that give only partial information about a subject, but that does not mean that those passages are wrong or need to be invalidated in the face of other passages. Every passage that deals with a topic must be considered when designing our doctrine on that subject. Passages that speak only of "belief" or "faith" are, in those words, referencing all the actions and thoughts that are referenced elsewhere as "leading to salvation": repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. These are the ONLY actions that Scripture says "lead to" receiving salvation.

 

[civic]

No Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved

Acts 11:14 (ESV) — 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

and not yet having received life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

had not yet received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

without which one does not belong to Christ

Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

and not being in Christ he cannot have life

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

No life no regeneration

Cornelius was not yet regenerate

spot on my friend

 

[TomL]

No, I do not "falsify" any Scripture to hold my view. I require that ALL Scripture be supported and considered.
1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism in water.
Col 2:11-14 says that it is during baptism that our sins are removed.
Rom 6:1-4 says that it is during baptism that we are made new creations.
John 3:5 says that if we are not born of water and the Spirit then we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
These must also be as equally true as the passages you cite above. If they are not, then there is error in Scripture, and none of it can be trusted.
Every passage that points to belief or faith encompasses in those terms everything that any other Scripture says leads to receiving salvation.
As I have pointed out elsewhere, consider the plaque on the cross bearing the accusation against Jesus:
Matt 27:37 – “And they (the soldiers who crucified Christ) put up over His head the accusation written against Him:
THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.“
Mark 15:26 – “And the inscription of His accusation was written above:
THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
Luke 23:38 – “… an inscription also was written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:
THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
John 19:19 – “Now Pilate wrote a title and put it on the cross. And the writing was:
JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
Then many of the Jews read this title, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city; and it was written in Hebrew, Greek, and Latin.“
Now, let me ask you, does John's account invalidate Mark's account (or vice-versa)? No. They are both equally correct, but John is more complete. Is Matthew wrong since he does not indicate that there were three languages used? No. His audience did not need to know that bit of information.
There are many passages that give only partial information about a subject, but that does not mean that those passages are wrong or need to be invalidated in the face of other passages. Every passage that deals with a topic must be considered when designing our doctrine on that subject. Passages that speak only of "belief" or "faith" are, in those words, referencing all the actions and thoughts that are referenced elsewhere as "leading to salvation": repentance, confession of Jesus as Lord, and baptism. These are the ONLY actions that Scripture says "lead to" receiving salvation.

Your problem is many verses posit life and salvation without water baptism.

You cannot dismiss them

Further you assume every mention of baptism refers to water baptism but Christ baptises in the spirit

and it the baptism en the Spirit which places (baptises) one into Christ

and it was shown the gentiles (cornelius and his household) had life, forgiveness of sin and salvation previous to water baptism

Scripture show those who believe pass from death to life

That life is had believing Jesus is the christ, the son of God.

That all who believe on him receive remission of sin

eternal life is granted upon faith

You commit the fallacy of negative inference if you deny this

 

[Doug Brents]

Your problem is many verses posit life and salvation without water baptism.
You cannot dismiss them

No, they do not posit life and salvation without water baptism. There is not a single verse that contradicts any other.

Further you assume every mention of baptism refers to water baptism but Christ baptises in the spirit
and it the baptism en the Spirit which places (baptises) one into Christ

There is only one baptism in the NT Church (Eph 4:4-6). And according to 1 Pet 3:21 that baptism (the one that saves us) requires water. This is also exemplified when Phillip taught the Eunuch in Acts 8. It is clear that Phillip taught the Eunuch that water baptism was necessary because it was the Eunuch that asked to be baptized as they were passing water. And it is also clear that the baptism that saves is the one that man does (not Spirit baptism), because in Matt 28:19 the teacher is commanded to baptize the student (disciple; literally "learner"). And the sister passage to this (same event from another perspective) is Mark 16:16 where Mark says that Jesus said, "He who believes AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved." It is not just believing but also obedience to the command Jesus gave that all teachers are to teach to their students (Mark 28:20) that brings about salvation.
So yes, almost every reference to baptism in the NT, unless it is clear that it is speaking about another baptism like 1 Cor 10:1-5, is a reference to the ONE baptism that saves (water baptism).

and it was shown the gentiles (cornelius and his household) had life, forgiveness of sin and salvation previous to water baptism

No, they did not. They had the miraculous power of the Spirit, but they did not have forgiveness of sin yet. As Acts 11:18 says, "repentance that leads to life." Repentance does not cause life, it leads to it. The events surrounding Cornelius cannot violate and make false other passages of Scripture. Thus, Cornelius was not saved until he was baptized in water, because that is what Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, and other passages say.

Scripture show those who believe pass from death to life

Yes, but again, belief here is not just intellectual assent. Belief (the Greek 'pistis') is faith, and faith REQUIRES action or it is not really faith.

That life is had believing Jesus is the christ, the son of God.
That all who believe on him receive remission of sin
eternal life is granted upon faith

Yes, life and forgiveness of sin are received when we exhibit faith (obedience) to Christ's commands. We are not saved through a passive, motionless, meaningless intellectual assent (belief). We are saved through faith, and faith is not real or pleasing to God until it is made perfect through what we do (James 2:14-26).

You commit the fallacy of negative inference if you deny this

Only if there are not negative statements in Scripture that make the negative of the proposition completely true, and there are. Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." There are also positive statements that do support the negative without incurring the fallacy. We are also told that Christ Jesus died for the Church "so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word". If you have not received the "washing of water with the Word", then you have not been sanctified, and so are not part of the Church.

 

[brightfame52]

You ignored my argument and the scripture supporting

No Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved

Acts 11:14 (ESV) — 14 he will declare to you a message by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

and not yet having received life

Acts 11:18 (ESV) — 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

had not yet received the Spirit

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

without which one does not belong to Christ

Romans 8:9 (ESV) — 9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

and not being in Christ he cannot have life

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

No life no regeneration

Cornelius was not yet regenerate

and nowhere is it stated if you fear God you are regenerate.

Psalm 25:14 (NIV) — 14 The LORD confides in those who fear him; he makes his covenant known to them.

Men fear him even previous to knowing his covenant

Your argument is trash, Not only was Cornelius regenerated working righteousness Acts 10:35

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
God had accepted him Acts 10:2-4,22

2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
He was a justified man before God

22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

 

[TomL]

No, they do not posit life and salvation without water baptism. There is not a single verse that contradicts any other.

Sorry you are simply denying scripture

The fact that no verse contradicts another only supports the fact one may be saved, receive life, be forgiven without water baptism

 

[TomL]

Your argument is trash, Not only was Cornelius regenerated working righteousness Acts 10:35

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
God had accepted him Acts 10:2-4,22
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.

4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
He was a justified man before God
22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Nothing there states he was regenerate

There is no life apart from Christ who Cornelius has no relationship with as yet

He did not have the spirit

He had not life

He was not yet saved

You are assuming the dictates of your theology and total inability

 

[brightfame52]

If Cornelius was regenerate, then he would have had no need to call Peter to hear the gospel.

lol, thats why God sent him the Gospel, because he had spiritual ears to hear by regeneration.

Men unregenerate, are not of God and consequently cant spiritually hear Gods words Jn 8:43,47

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Cornelius was of God

 

[brightfame52]

Nothing there states he was regenerate

There is no life apart from Christ who Cornelius has no relationship with as yet

He did not have the spirit

He had not life

He was not yet saved

You are assuming the dictates of your theology and total inability

Im actually through with it, I have given you enough scripture evidence to show he was regenerate, if you dont believe it, nothing i can do about that, God has hid it from your mind.