"Works Salvation"

[TomL]

"Believes" is again 'pistis', which is faith. All who exhibit faith will be saved.

And?

That differs from anything I stated how?

The proof is in Acts 10:47-48. They were baptized in water (in order to receive forgiveness of their sins as Acts 2:38 says) immediately after the Holy Spirit caused them to begin speaking in tongues.
God granted to Gentiles "repentance that leads to life", not forgiveness and justification in the Spirit falling on them in power.

Repentance is sufficient for remission of sin as is faith

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The gentiles were granted life and had their hearts purified by faith apart from water baptism

as quoted previous post

No, they were not forgiven, or regenerated, or given new life, when the Holy Spirit fell on them in power. That all occurred when they were baptized in water immediately following. There would be no point in baptizing them in water as a "sign of the change in their hearts", because (according to your concept) the works of the Holy Spirit would be more than enough "sign" that they did not need water. But that is not what Jesus commanded in John 3:5 where He said that no one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

The jews disagree with your claim

Acts 11:16–18 (ESV) — 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

as did Peter

Acts 15:6–9 (ESV) — 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

according to Peter the gentiles having received the spirit was evidence their hearts were purified by fai

That speaks to forgiveness of sin and regeneration

water baptism played no part in this

Further Peter argued having had received the Spirit the gentiles could not be forbidden water. That argument is only valid having received the substance they were entitled to the sign

Or having received the greater they were entitles to the lesser

It does not work the other way around

IN ONE SPIRIT, not by the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but IN ONE SPIRIT, we are baptized (in water (1 Pet 3:21) into one body.

That is eisegesis there is no mention of water in 1cor 12:13.

The spirit does not baptize in water

it is en the same greek word used every time you read of the baptism en the holy Spirit

Matthew 3:11 (ESV) — 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 (ESV) — 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 (ESV) — 16 John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 (ESV) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

etc

 

[TomL]

Dont matter, the unregenerate are in the flesh, since they dont have the Spirit.

So Cornelius was in the flesh unregenerate

and yet pleased God according to scripture.

You are making dogmatic statements disproved by scripture

Any with faith can please God.

 

[brightfame52]

I do know that your posts contradict Scripture left and right. Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19 and Rom 10:9-10 all stipulate something that man must do in order to receive forgiveness and salvation.

Nothing there about salvation conditioned on works. Thats apostacy

 

[brightfame52]

You are assuming that all unregenerate are in the flesh at all times and that they cannot believe

Something scripture refutes


Luke 8:13 (ESV) — 13 And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

These were unregenerate and they believed, though for a while

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”

These were unregenerate and they could have believed were the truth not hidden in a parable

John 12:40 (ESV) — 40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”


these unregenerates would have believe if not hardened

These presume men are capable of believing

John 1:7 (ESV) — 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 17:20 (ESV) — 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,

Romans 10:14–17 (ESV) — 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


God is of cause pleased by faith

Im not assuming nothing, point blank, none in the flesh can please God Rom 8:8 and Faith/Believing pleases God Heb 11:6 doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand it.

 

[brightfame52]

So Cornelius was in the flesh unregenerate

and yet pleased God according to scripture.

You are making dogmatic statements disproved by scripture

Any with faith can please God.

I have spoken on corny. Nobody in the flesh can please God, not my word but Gods word Rom 8:8

 

[Doug Brents]

Repentance is sufficient for remission of sin as is faith

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The gentiles were granted life and had their hearts purified by faith apart from water baptism

as quoted previous post

No, they did not. If that were true, then Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, and many other passages are a lie.

The jews disagree with your claim

Acts 11:16–18 (ESV) — 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

as did Peter

Acts 15:6–9 (ESV) — 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

according to Peter the gentiles having received the spirit was evidence their hearts were purified by fai

No, it was evidence that God had granted them the opportunity to be forgiven and be added to the Church. They were not added yet, because they had not obeyed the Gospel.

That speaks to forgiveness of sin and regeneration

water baptism played no part in this

Further Peter argued having had received the Spirit the gentiles could not be forbidden water. That argument is only valid having received the substance they were entitled to the sign

Or having received the greater they were entitles to the lesser

It does not work the other way around

Up until this time, Gentiles were not allowed in the Temple, and they were not allowed in the Church. The Jews believed that God had ordained the Church only as a Jewish institution. But Peter realized that this was a wrong idea, and so his question was to the other Jews, "Do you think this constitutes enough of a validation that these Gentiles are to be added to the Church just as we were?" It was not an admission that the Gentiles had already been saved, but that the Holy Spirit had shown them that the Gentiles could be saved and added to the Church.

That is eisegesis there is no mention of water in 1cor 12:13.

There doesn't need to be. The fact that water was the baptism that saves was common knowledge in the first century. This is evident in the fact that Philip must have taught it to the Eunuch in Acts 8, because the Eunuch asked for it. And in the fact that Jesus told the Apostles that those who they taught the Gospel and that they baptized would be saved (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16).

The spirit does not baptize in water

No, He does not. He takes action during water baptism (Col 2:11-13).

it is en the same greek word used every time you read of the baptism en the holy Spirit

Matthew 3:11 (ESV) — 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 (ESV) — 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 (ESV) — 16 John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 (ESV) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

etc

Yes, and that baptism occurred exactly two times in all of history. Once with the 120 in the upper room on Pentecost, and the second and last time in Cornelius' house. That even has not occurred any other time. So unless those are the only two groups of people who will ever be saved, that is not the baptism that saves.

 

[Doug Brents]

Nothing there about salvation conditioned on works. Thats apostacy

I am ashamed of you. The fact that you cannot (or will not) read God's word and accept it as truth instead of reading your own false doctrine into everything you read offends me and God both.

Acts 2:38 - Repentance and baptism (both actions men do) lead to being forgiven and receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 3:19 - Repentance leads to being forgiven and blessing from God.
Rom 10:9-10 - Belief and Confession of Jesus as Lord leads to righteousness and salvation.

You don't have to believe it, but that is the Truth that is in God's Word.

 

[TomL]

No, they did not. If that were true, then Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21, John 3:5, and many other passages are a lie.

Lets see I stated

Repentance is sufficient for remission of sin as is faith

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The gentiles were granted life and had their hearts purified by faith apart from water baptism

Acts 10:47 (ESV) — 47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

received the holy Spirit

Acts 11:15–18 (KJV 1900) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

had repentance unto life

Acts 15:7–9 (KJV 1900) — 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

They were given the Spirit and had their heart purified by faith

The spirit is received through faith

Galatians 3:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3:14 (KJV 1900) — 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

John 7:38–39 (ESV) — 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Ephesians 3:17 (ESV) — 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

None of your verses state if you are not baptized you cannot be granted life or have your heart purified by faith

That is the fallacy of negative inference. Verses after verse can be shown men are saved upon faith

and it denies the verses posted above and a multiplicity of verses which show we are saved upon faith

John 3:14–15 (ESV) — 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

John 3:16 (ESV) — 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 5:24 (ESV) — 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 5:25 (ESV) — 25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

John 20:31 (ESV) — 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

John 6:51 (ESV) — 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

John 6:53 (ESV) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

you falsify all those verses

While those who believe both sets falsify none

There is your error

Of course those who believe and are baptized are saved for all who believe are saved


of course those who repent and are baptized receive remission of sin for repentance grants remission of sin as does faith

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

you have to falsify this verse to hold your view

 

[TomL]

I have spoken on corny. Nobody in the flesh can please God, not my word but Gods word Rom 8:8

So Cornelius was unregenerate, but not operating in the flesh and pleased God

Any with faith may please God

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB 2020) — 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

 

[TomL]

Im not assuming nothing, point blank, none in the flesh can please God Rom 8:8 and Faith/Believing pleases God Heb 11:6 doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand it.

You are assuming in the flesh is the permanent continuous character of all men

The fact is you need faith to believe so as to be made spiritual alive

There is no life apart from being in Christ

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

and that requires faith (which pleases God)

Your theology posits life apart from Christ and is thus cannot be biblical

 

[civic]

So Cornelius was in the flesh unregenerate

and yet pleased God according to scripture.

You are making dogmatic statements disproved by scripture

Any with faith can please God.

Good one

 

[TomL]

Good one

Thank you my friend

 

[brightfame52]

So Cornelius was unregenerate, but not operating in the flesh and pleased God

Any with faith may please God

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB 2020) — 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for the one who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He proves to be One who rewards those who seek Him.

I have spoken on Cornelius, and nobody in the flesh, unregenerate can please God. Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. And it doesnt say except Cornelius

 

[brightfame52]

You are assuming in the flesh is the permanent continuous character of all men

The fact is you need faith to believe so as to be made spiritual alive

There is no life apart from being in Christ

1 John 5:11–12 (NASB 2020) — 11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

John 5:40 (NASB 2020) — 40 and yet you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Ephesians 1:3 (NASB 2020) — 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

John 6:53 (NASB 2020) — 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

and that requires faith (which pleases God)

Your theology posits life apart from Christ and is thus cannot be biblical

Being in the flesh is to be unregenerate, not having the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, as long as we are in that condition, we cant please God, cant come to Him in Faith as described in Heb 11:6

John Gill writes on Rom 8:8

cannot please God; men, whilst unregenerate, and as such, cannot please God; for though the persons of God's elect are wellpleasing to him always, as considered in Christ, in whom they are loved with an everlasting love, and were chosen in him, and all provisions grace and glory made for them in him; yet as considered in themselves, and whilst in the flesh, do not please him; for they are straying from him, are alienated from his life, are destitute of all grace, and particularly faith, without which it is impossible to please him; are filthy and unclean, and hence, whilst such have no enjoyment of him, or communion with him; wherefore he sends his Spirit to work in them that which is wellpleasing in his sight: but this is not to be understood so much of persons, and their non-acceptableness to God, as of the inability of unregenerate men to obtain the good will of God, or make their peace with him; which they have no inclination to, being enmity against him; and were they inclined to it, know not how to go about it; nor can they draw nigh to God to treat with him about terms of peace; nor can they do that which can procure peace; Christ is the only person that can, make peace, and has done it: or rather, of the impotency of natural men to do anything which pleasing in the sight of God. There are many things which are pleasing to him, such as prayer, praise, giving of alms, keeping his commandments, and walking in his ways; but these unregenerate men cannot do in any acceptable manner to God; for they are without the Spirit, without Christ, without faith; and in all they do have no view to the glory of God: they have neither grace, nor strength, nor right principles, nor right ends.

 

[TomL]

Being in the flesh is to be unregenerate, not having the Spirit of Christ dwelling in us, as long as we are in that condition, we cant please God, cant come to Him in Faith as described in Heb 11:6

John Gill writes on Rom 8:8

You assume that

Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved not yet having been granted life

Yet he pleased God

so he was not controlled by the flesh when he did all those things which pleased God

Your assumption is mistaken

BTW Christians can be in the flesh at times

 

[TomL]

I have spoken on Cornelius, and nobody in the flesh, unregenerate can please God. Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. And it doesnt say except Cornelius

Again Cornelius was unregenerate not yet having been granted life, yet he pleased God

so your assumption that the unregenerate must always be in the flesh is mistaken

 

[dwight92070]

And?

That differs from anything I stated how?



Repentance is sufficient for remission of sin as is faith

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The gentiles were granted life and had their hearts purified by faith apart from water baptism

as quoted previous post








The jews disagree with your claim

Acts 11:16–18 (ESV) — 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

as did Peter

Acts 15:6–9 (ESV) — 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.

according to Peter the gentiles having received the spirit was evidence their hearts were purified by fai

That speaks to forgiveness of sin and regeneration

water baptism played no part in this

Further Peter argued having had received the Spirit the gentiles could not be forbidden water. That argument is only valid having received the substance they were entitled to the sign

Or having received the greater they were entitles to the lesser

It does not work the other way around








That is eisegesis there is no mention of water in 1cor 12:13.

The spirit does not baptize in water

it is en the same greek word used every time you read of the baptism en the holy Spirit

Matthew 3:11 (ESV) — 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Mark 1:8 (ESV) — 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Luke 3:16 (ESV) — 16 John answered them all, saying, “I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Acts 1:5 (ESV) — 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

etc

You continually assume that the water baptism is what allowed them to have their sins forgiven, (Acts 2:38) when scripturally, it was their repentance and faith.

 

[Wilber]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? | GotQuestions.org

Why is salvation by works the predominantly held viewpoint? Why do so many people believe that we can be saved by works?

www.gotquestions.org

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny? Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny? Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

I think the control Noah had was in his choosing to be obedient and to do what God instructed him to do. He was a righteous man, that “found favor in the eyes of the Lord” (Genesis 6:8).

 

[TomL]

You continually assume that the water baptism is what allowed them to have their sins forgiven, (Acts 2:38) when scripturally, it was their repentance and faith.

Me ?

No !!!!!!

I reject that water baptism is what allowed for their sins to be forgiven. Please reread

You got me all wrong

this is what I stated

Repentance is sufficient for remission of sin as is faith

Acts 5:31 (ESV) — 31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 10:43 (ESV) — 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

The gentiles were granted life and had their hearts purified by faith apart from water baptism

 

[brightfame52]

You assume that

Cornelius was not regenerate not being saved not yet having been granted life

Yet he pleased God

so he was not controlled by the flesh when he did all those things which pleased God

Your assumption is mistaken

BTW Christians can be in the flesh at times

Man by nature in the flesh, carnal, unregenerate cannot please God, thats not an assumption but fact. Look Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Do you believe the unregenerate are in the flesh ?